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Author Topic: Output Coils  (Read 11910 times)

Offline nathanj99

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Output Coils
« on: March 02, 2015, 01:24:37 PM »
Hi everyone.

I am new to all this and have been doing research over the last week. One thing I am stuck on is output coils for something like the Adams motor. I have no idea what sort of coil to make, even as to what the voltage and amperage I would get from a output coil. What wire would you use on a output coil, how many winds etc etc. Would you get more current if you used heavier wire? I can understand that the speed the wheel is turning would have a big effect.

Thanks

Nathan

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Output Coils
« on: March 02, 2015, 01:24:37 PM »

Offline synchro1

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Re: Output Coils
« Reply #1 on: March 02, 2015, 08:46:33 PM »
Hi everyone.

I am new to all this and have been doing research over the last week. One thing I am stuck on is output coils for something like the Adams motor. I have no idea what sort of coil to make, even as to what the voltage and amperage I would get from a output coil. What wire would you use on a output coil, how many winds etc etc. Would you get more current if you used heavier wire? I can understand that the speed the wheel is turning would have a big effect.

Thanks

Nathan

@Nathan,

Evey loop, or full turn of wire adds a volt to the power. A coil of thin wire and many turns genrates higher voltage then a coil of thicker wire and fewer turns. The thicker wire generates higher amperage. Try 26 or 28 gauge. That's  whatAdamsused                       

Offline nathanj99

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Re: Output Coils
« Reply #2 on: March 02, 2015, 10:27:27 PM »
Thank you. Now I have a starting point. Im guessing I wont know what voltage I will get until i start experimenting? I need a circuit to change the voltage down to 12v. Any ideas?

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Re: Output Coils
« Reply #2 on: March 02, 2015, 10:27:27 PM »
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Offline synchro1

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Re: Output Coils
« Reply #3 on: March 03, 2015, 02:55:35 AM »
@Nathanj99,

A 120volt to 12volt, or 220volt to 12volt transformer can help step the voltage down along with a rectifier for another -.7 volts at the end. The charging voltage for a 12 volt battery should be around 14 volts. Take a voltage Reading off the output coil with a DMM before you select a transformer.





Offline nathanj99

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Re: Output Coils
« Reply #4 on: March 03, 2015, 08:08:31 AM »
Thanks synchro1. I have been looking at the circuit diagrams for the  bendini engine. There is a 12v drive battery and a 12v charge battery. There is no transformer etc. so how do the people who make these know they are getting a 12-14 volt output to charge the battery and not some silly voltage that will fry the battery??

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Re: Output Coils
« Reply #4 on: March 03, 2015, 08:08:31 AM »
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Offline Jimboot

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Re: Output Coils
« Reply #5 on: March 03, 2015, 08:37:17 AM »
Thanks synchro1. I have been looking at the circuit diagrams for the  bendini engine. There is a 12v drive battery and a 12v charge battery. There is no transformer etc. so how do the people who make these know they are getting a 12-14 volt output to charge the battery and not some silly voltage that will fry the battery??
If they fried the output battery they would be happy. I would start with some cheap meters that will start you getting used to the concepts etc. Hook one up to your output before you hook it to the battery just to see what it is. I had some output coils that were pushing out 1kv on a simple pulse motor. The amps were quite low though so total wattage out, was about 2/3 of what I was putting in, so efficient but no cigar.

Offline MileHigh

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Re: Output Coils
« Reply #6 on: March 03, 2015, 09:30:45 AM »
Thanks synchro1. I have been looking at the circuit diagrams for the  bendini engine. There is a 12v drive battery and a 12v charge battery. There is no transformer etc. so how do the people who make these know they are getting a 12-14 volt output to charge the battery and not some silly voltage that will fry the battery??

The answer to your question is that the output that charges the charge battery is not a voltage source, it's a current source.  A discharging coil is a current source.  The output voltage of the coil is primarily determined by the voltage of the charging battery itself.  The voltage going into the charging battery is not determined by the coil.

You should try Googling "What is a current source?" and "Voltage source vs. current source."

If you can understand the concept of a current source and how it works then you will be ahead of 98% of all Bedini motor enthusiasts.  I can't explain why, but literally there are Bedini motor enthusiasts that play with their Bedini motors for years with no understanding whatsoever that when the charging battery is being charged it's being charged by a discharging inductor that is a current source.

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Re: Output Coils
« Reply #6 on: March 03, 2015, 09:30:45 AM »
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Offline MileHigh

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Re: Output Coils
« Reply #7 on: March 03, 2015, 09:36:43 AM »
Quote
Hook one up to your output before you hook it to the battery just to see what it is.

If you are suggesting that you should connect a voltmeter to the unloaded discharging coil you should never do this.  The current source output from the discharging coil will generate an unknown high voltage that may fry the voltmeter and/or give the experimenter a very nasty shock.

Offline nathanj99

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Re: Output Coils
« Reply #8 on: March 03, 2015, 09:50:51 AM »
What do you suggest? Would a 1 ohm resister help?

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Re: Output Coils
« Reply #8 on: March 03, 2015, 09:50:51 AM »
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Offline Farmhand

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Re: Output Coils
« Reply #9 on: March 03, 2015, 10:02:33 AM »
When charging a battery with a switched coil discharge. If the charging battery is in bad condition and has a high internal resistance then the voltage observed at the charging battery terminals may get quite high (even showing large spikes on a scope) and not much current will flow through the battery. that will eventually break down the sulfates if the battery is just sulfated. But if the charging battery is in good condition with low internal resistance then the voltage at the terminals of the battery will not get high and the battery will experience more current for a longer time and the battery will take charge from that.

If you open circuit the leads of an old transformer based battery charger or a car alternator (not recommended) the open circuit voltage is for my charger around 20 volts for a 12 amp charge and about 17 for a 6 amp charge ect. the car alternator on my old car gave about 18 volts at idle open circuit. The amount of current produced through the battery from a transformer charger or an alternator is determined by the "applied potential". If a regular transformer charger is applied to a sufated battery then the battery terminals will only go to about 20 volts or so (car alternator has active regulation).

But when a switched coil charger (ala bastardized boost converter with no output regulation) is connected to a sulfated battery with high internal resistance then the voltage can rise much higher for well known reasons, the higher resistance reduces the ability of charging current so it raises the voltage instead to overcome the resistance. and it does. Safe or not. 

They can serve a purpose to try to restore really bad batteries but to get good capacity back in my batteries I use a 4 stage - 6 amp current pulse charger I bought from ebay it has a refresh function and analyses the battery before charging to determine the best algorithm it can for charging that battery, the fast charge portion uses a pulsing current that can build a higher voltage fast on a sufated battery, but when that happens and the charger stops prematurely I simply apply an appropriate load of around 4 to 6 amperes  to drain the battery and force the battery to cause it's own current which also helps to desufate the battery. Then when it's discharged I put it back on the charger which does the refresh cycle again and re analyses the battery.

If I want to reclaim a badly sulfated battery I usually use some magnesium sulfate (epsome salts) saturated solution in each cell then maybe a coil switching setup for a while to get some charge into the battery so it can be discharged through an appropriate load. Discharging the battery appropriately does as much to desulfate the battery as charging it does.

Similarly a 1 amp trickle charge will restore a sufated battery if left for long enough.

Reality bites.

Offline Jimboot

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Re: Output Coils
« Reply #10 on: March 03, 2015, 10:07:55 AM »
If you are suggesting that you should connect a voltmeter to the unloaded discharging coil you should never do this.  The current source output from the discharging coil will generate an unknown high voltage that may fry the voltmeter and/or give the experimenter a very nasty shock.
Interesting. i've done it thousands of times and never had this problem. Lucky I guess.

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Re: Output Coils
« Reply #10 on: March 03, 2015, 10:07:55 AM »
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Offline Farmhand

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Re: Output Coils
« Reply #11 on: March 03, 2015, 11:40:53 AM »
It all depends on the amount of potential energy stored in the magnetic field of the coil. If the stored potential energy is not much then no problem. But if you have a large coil with low resistance and high inductance which is holding a lot of potential energy in the magnetic field then problems can arise. The amount of energy is a big factor when safety is concerned.

A bad battery with an internal fault could be caused to explode if the high voltage produced by the high resistance causes an internal spark in the battery and if there is Hydrogen and oxygen present inside it.

An exploding lead acid battery is a very bad situation even when there is no one present everything the sulfuric acid gets splashed on becomes degraded or destroyed. If one was standing looking at a battery when it exploded then heaven help them.

..

Personally I don't allow much more than 24 volts at the battery terminals, with a switched coil charger (not regulated) this can be controlled by the applied voltage to the circuit or by reducing the pulse width for the charging of the coil.

Desulfation takes time to happen and it takes time to reverse.

.

Micro processor control and custom charging algorithms can be fun, controlling the pulse width and limiting the voltage at the battery terminals is just a picaxe program away.

..

Offline Farmhand

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Re: Output Coils
« Reply #12 on: March 03, 2015, 11:44:30 AM »
Interesting. i've done it thousands of times and never had this problem. Lucky I guess.

If the circuit did not destroy itself then the energy was fairly low I would say. Multimeters have MOhm resistance on voltage setting.

and the higher the voltage gets the narrower the discharge spike is as well, (in the time domain).

..

Offline nathanj99

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Re: Output Coils
« Reply #13 on: March 03, 2015, 05:15:44 PM »
The answer to your question is that the output that charges the charge battery is not a voltage source, it's a current source.  A discharging coil is a current source.  The output voltage of the coil is primarily determined by the voltage of the charging battery itself.  The voltage going into the charging battery is not determined by the coil.

You should try Googling "What is a current source?" and "Voltage source vs. current source."

If you can understand the concept of a current source and how it works then you will be ahead of 98% of all Bedini motor enthusiasts.  I can't explain why, but literally there are Bedini motor enthusiasts that play with their Bedini motors for years with no understanding whatsoever that when the charging battery is being charged it's being charged by a discharging inductor that is a current source.

wow, I have been reading up about current sources. I think I kind of get it. But if one uses the output combined with a capacitor to power a light bulb rather than charge a battery, what would the voltage source be? or am I simply not understanding it?

Thanks for all the info everyone, its all very interesting .

Offline MileHigh

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Re: Output Coils
« Reply #14 on: March 03, 2015, 07:56:38 PM »
Interesting. i've done it thousands of times and never had this problem. Lucky I guess.

Why have you been doing this test?  I am curious.  You state "Hook one up to your output before you hook it to the battery just to see what it is. I had some output coils that were pushing out 1kv on a simple pulse motor."

So is your test to verify that the coil is capable of generating high voltage?  If that's the case then you are not really measuring anything significant.

I think a typical multimeter has a high voltage scale that goes up to 2000 volts.  I don't know what voltage it takes to blow the input for a digital multimeter but let's say it's 5000 volts for the sake of argument.  For an analog multimeter you can fry the winding in the needle deflection mechanism.  Let's say for the sake of argument it would take 5000 volts in this case also.

Let's assume that both digital and analog multimeters have a one megaohm input resistance.

Let's suppose that you hook the multimeter in series with a discharging coil, and the initial discharging current from the coil is one ampere.  So that means you have a one-ampere current source that wants to pump that current into a one megaohm resistance.  That means that the theoretical maximum voltage output from the coil (for a fraction of a second) is one million volts.

MileHigh

 

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