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### Author Topic: Overunity transformer effect  (Read 20906 times)

#### tinman

• Hero Member
• Posts: 5242
##### Re: Overunity transformer effect
« Reply #15 on: March 03, 2015, 01:51:04 PM »
Yes, really.

You have arranged your circuit in a way that makes it difficult for you to measure it properly, especially given that you only have single-ended probes.  The primary is across nodes 1 and 2.  You are not probing across 1 and 2.  You are probing from 1 to ground and incorrectly calling that your primary.  Node 1 has 50 Ohms to ground during the ring out via the FG.  The secondary is high impedance as the LED has stopped conducting.
Im guessing that you havnt watched the second video,where i have emmited(switched off) the 50 ohm attenuation. Both grounds of the scope are now on the ground side of the two coil's-after the 100 ohm resistor/capacitor combo(which are a common ground between the two coils. Then each probe is across each coil,and still the ringing is only on the secondary.
And how would we measure current flow when the current flow across the 100 ohm resistor reverses?-even though the only thing we change on the SG is the duty cycle. How do we explain the voltage across the primary rising higher than the voltage being supplied to it when this current reversal takes place?-the voltage rise on the primary is consistant with the current reversal shown across the 100 ohm resistor.
Is there any point in measureing current flowing through the LED,when the current flowing through the primary is flowing in the wrong direction?
In the circuit i posted,what would have to happen for the voltage across the cap to switch polarity?

Im not saying that we have some miracle device here(and im preatty sure we dont),what i am saying is that i am seeing some interesting things here-->and some even more interesting things to come with the different transformer i tried today.

Below is a scope shot across the 100 ohm resistor without the cap.
You tell me which way the bulk of the current flow is?. scope ground on circuit ground,and probe on the transformer side of the 100 ohm resistor.
SG-2VPP with a positive 1 volt offset-->2 volt pulses,and 0 volt off time.

#### MarkE

• Hero Member
• Posts: 6830
##### Re: Overunity transformer effect
« Reply #16 on: March 03, 2015, 02:02:58 PM »
Im guessing that you havnt watched the second video,where i have emmited(switched off) the 50 ohm attenuation.
Sorry to disappoint you but I sat through all 27 minutes.
Quote

Both grounds of the scope are now on the ground side of the two coil's-after the 100 ohm resistor/capacitor combo(which are a common ground between the two coils. Then each probe is across each coil,and still the ringing is only on the secondary.
Yes, so?  Now you've got an even lower impedance across the primary and still a very high impedance across the secondary. This is all very basic stuff.
Quote

And how would we measure current flow when the current flow across the 100 ohm resistor reverses?-even though the only thing we change on the SG is the duty cycle. How do we explain the voltage across the primary rising higher than the voltage being supplied to it when this current reversal takes place?-the voltage rise on the primary is consistant with the current reversal shown across the 100 ohm resistor.
One designs a set-up with the measurements they are going to need to obtain in mind.  If you want to make accurate voltage measurements, you will need to dispense with the wires all over your desktop and localize your circuit common.  You have stray inductances all over the place with all that wiring.  It won't bother you at the 100us to ms range, but it will give you all kinds of grief in the us range.
Quote

Is there any point in measureing current flowing through the LED,when the current flowing through the primary is flowing in the wrong direction?
Aside from some ringing, the current in the primary really only flows in the clockwise direction using positive current convention.
Quote

In the circuit i posted,what would have to happen for the voltage across the cap to switch polarity?
Which version?  The one with the diode anode at ground, or on the positive side of the capacitor?
Quote

Im not saying that we have some miracle device here(and im preatty sure we dont),what i am saying is that i am seeing some interesting things here-->and some even more interesting things to come with the different transformer i tried today.
What you find interesting is nothing new or unusual.  If it is interesting to you: great, learn all you can from it.
Quote

Below is a scope shot across the 100 ohm resistor without the cap.
You tell me which way the bulk of the current flow is?. scope ground on circuit ground,and probe on the transformer side of the 100 ohm resistor.
SG-2VPP with a positive 1 volt offset-->2 volt pulses,and 0 volt off time.

#### minnie

• Hero Member
• Posts: 1244
##### Re: Overunity transformer effect
« Reply #17 on: March 03, 2015, 03:22:53 PM »

Tinman,
great videos, that's the way they should be done.
No silly music, no deception, well done!
John.

#### MileHigh

• Hero Member
• Posts: 7600
##### Re: Overunity transformer effect
« Reply #18 on: March 03, 2015, 07:39:24 PM »
Tinman:

You have a great opportunity to analyze this simple circuit with your floating scope.  I would suggest that you do what I have often stated:  You record all of the relevant voltage and current waveforms and then you construct a full timing diagram that shows six, seven, or eight or more waveforms all lined up in time.  I suppose that you could export captured waveforms and then assemble them into a a tall and narrow composite .jpeg or .png image.  Or do Plan B, which is to simply sketch your waveforms on graph paper by hand and then photograph it.

The point is to see all of the waveforms in one shot and understand and explain the dependencies between the waveforms.  That way you understand the operation of the circuit.

Sorry, but I have to state that you can see how you are still tripping yourself up.  You stated that the primary was not ringing, but you weren't even measuring the voltage across the primary.  If you did a full and rigorous investigation like I suggest above, you would have discovered your error for yourself.

There is also an issue with your nomenclature.  People can claim a circuit is over unity or under unity.  But what is an "over unity effect?"  I don't know what that means.  Are you claiming the circuit is over unity or not?

On this forum there is also an issue about the title for a thread.  People always put some kind of claim of over unity in the title before anything has been proven.  You notice that they don't permit that on OUR and Chris/EMJunkie had to change the title of his thread after it became evident that his claim was not true.

MileHigh

#### tinman

• Hero Member
• Posts: 5242
##### Re: Overunity transformer effect
« Reply #19 on: March 03, 2015, 10:35:05 PM »
Quote
You have stray inductances all over the place with all that wiring.  It won't bother you at the 100us to ms range, but it will give you all kinds of grief in the us range.

As i said in both video's,the result is the same from 40hZ to 15khZ

Quote
Aside from some ringing, the current in the primary really only flows in the clockwise direction using positive current convention.

And yet we clearly see current flowing in both directions across the 100 ohm resistor.

Quote
Which version?  The one with the diode anode at ground, or on the positive side of the capacitor?

Once again,as stated in the video-either side of the capacitor/resistor,or not there at all-->it makes no difference to the circuits opperation. So in order to reverse the polarity of the voltage across the capacitor/resistor combo,what would have to happen?.

Quote
What you find interesting is nothing new or unusual.  If it is interesting to you: great, learn all you can from it.

Cool,can you show us a setup where the voltage across a capacitor changes in polarity,while maintaining a current flow in one direction,where that cap is in series with the circuit such as mine is?.

#### MarkE

• Hero Member
• Posts: 6830
##### Re: Overunity transformer effect
« Reply #20 on: March 04, 2015, 01:09:06 AM »
I would like to see an image or image such that I can follow all the wiring.  It is quite possible that you have set-up a ground loop.

#### tinman

• Hero Member
• Posts: 5242
##### Re: Overunity transformer effect
« Reply #21 on: March 04, 2015, 06:37:24 AM »
I would like to see an image or image such that I can follow all the wiring.  It is quite possible that you have set-up a ground loop.
The circuit is as posted. D1 is on the positive side of the cap.

#### tinman

• Hero Member
• Posts: 5242
##### Re: Overunity transformer effect
« Reply #22 on: March 04, 2015, 06:43:03 AM »
Oh-one more interesting thing I found.
I cant get the same effect with a transformer that has a ferrite core, the amp meter always shows a forward current, and the voltage across the cap wont switch polarity--》aint that a hoot

#### MarkE

• Hero Member
• Posts: 6830
##### Re: Overunity transformer effect
« Reply #23 on: March 04, 2015, 06:47:10 AM »
The circuit is as posted. D1 is on the positive side of the cap.
Is it really so much trouble to snap one or two pictures that show all the wiring?

#### tinman

• Hero Member
• Posts: 5242
##### Re: Overunity transformer effect
« Reply #24 on: March 04, 2015, 08:31:45 AM »
Is it really so much trouble to snap one or two pictures that show all the wiring?
As I am 600km away from home, it is quite a bit of trouble ATM.

#### MileHigh

• Hero Member
• Posts: 7600
##### Re: Overunity transformer effect
« Reply #25 on: March 04, 2015, 10:01:04 AM »
There is a decent sim compliments of EMdevices.  I assume more tweaking and adjusting will be forthcoming.

http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=2804.msg46835#msg46835

#### tinman

• Hero Member
• Posts: 5242
##### Re: Overunity transformer effect
« Reply #26 on: March 04, 2015, 03:28:56 PM »
There is a decent sim compliments of EMdevices.  I assume more tweaking and adjusting will be forthcoming.

http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=2804.msg46835#msg46835
Looks very close indeed MH. Lets see if he can get the voltage polarity to reverse on C1 using his sim.

#### tinman

• Hero Member
• Posts: 5242
##### Re: Overunity transformer effect
« Reply #27 on: March 04, 2015, 03:47:36 PM »
So a question for you all.
Lets say we have 2 DC cap's-63 volts,and a capacity of 10 000uF.
Now we know if we place these two caps in parallel,we will retaind the voltage rating of 63 volt's,and the capacitance will double to 20 000uF. We also know if we put these caps in series,we will half the capacitance to 5000uF,but double the voltage to 126 volt's. But what if we want to use these two caps on an AC current. For this we would join the two negatives in series,and we would have the two positive terminals conected to our AC source-->but what would be the capacitance of the two cap's now?.

#### MarkE

• Hero Member
• Posts: 6830
##### Re: Overunity transformer effect
« Reply #28 on: March 04, 2015, 04:23:06 PM »
So a question for you all.
Lets say we have 2 DC cap's-63 volts,and a capacity of 10 000uF.
Now we know if we place these two caps in parallel,we will retaind the voltage rating of 63 volt's,and the capacitance will double to 20 000uF. We also know if we put these caps in series,we will half the capacitance to 5000uF,but double the voltage to 126 volt's. But what if we want to use these two caps on an AC current. For this we would join the two negatives in series,and we would have the two positive terminals conected to our AC source-->but what would be the capacitance of the two cap's now?.
Two capacitors in series exhibit a total capacitance of:

CSERIES = C1*C2/(C1 + C2)

#### gyulasun

• Hero Member
• Posts: 4139
##### Re: Overunity transformer effect
« Reply #29 on: March 04, 2015, 05:55:14 PM »
...
But what if we want to use these two caps on an AC current. For this we would join the two negatives in series,and we would have the two positive terminals conected to our AC source-->but what would be the capacitance of the two cap's now?.