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Mechanical free energy devices => mechanic => Topic started by: Newton II on February 21, 2015, 03:16:24 PM
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I found this picture somewhere in the internet. It shows how diamagnetic liquids are repelled by a magnetic field in a 'U' shaped tube.
It looks like we can get a permanent head difference between left and right portion of 'U' tube. If right portion of the tube is connected to left portion by a thin tube, will it not create a perpetual motion of liquid from right to left due to head difference created by magnetic field?
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I found this picture somewhere in the internet. It shows how diamagnetic liquids are repelled by a magnetic field in a 'U' shaped tube.
It looks like we can get a permanent head difference between left and right portion of 'U' tube. If right portion of the tube is connected to left portion by a thin tube, will it not create a perpetual motion of liquid from right to left due to head difference created by magnetic field?
And this diamagnetic liquid is what?
ATM i am grinding up some bismuth,but having trouble getting it below a 10 micron grain. Plan was to suspend it in a thin oil to see how it would react to a magnetic field-->but if you know of the existance of such a liquid(diamagnetic),that would be of much help.
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Water. Liquid hydrogen. Good luck.
http://www.tutorvista.com/content/physics/physics-iv/magnetism-matter/magnetic-properties.php
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I found this picture somewhere in the internet. It shows how diamagnetic liquids are repelled by a magnetic field in a 'U' shaped tube.
It looks like we can get a permanent head difference between left and right portion of 'U' tube. If right portion of the tube is connected to left portion by a thin tube, will it not create a perpetual motion of liquid from right to left due to head difference created by magnetic field?
Just remember that the diamagnetic liquid in that tube will still be diamagnetic inside the thin tube that connects left and right side of the "U".
So there cannot be a continous flow from one side to the other.
If the magnet can defeat gravity that much, it will defeat how gravity act on the liquid in the thin tube as well.
Vidar
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Tinman:'ATM i am grinding up some bismuth,but having trouble getting it below a 10 micron grain.'
Dissolve a piece Bi in nitric acid.heat in testube until acid evaporates and bismuth nitrate decomposes into Bi2O3.add HCl to form Bi(Cl)3 solution.then throw in a piece of zinc or magnesium.fine bismuth black powder forms via galvanic displacement.rinsein hot water
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And this diamagnetic liquid is what?
ATM i am grinding up some bismuth,but having trouble getting it below a 10 micron grain. Plan was to suspend it in a thin oil to see how it would react to a magnetic field-->but if you know of the existance of such a liquid(diamagnetic),that would be of much help.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diamagnetism
A table in that page shows diamagnetic strengths of various materials.
Water = − 0.91 X 10 -5
Mercury = −2.9 X 10 -5
Bismuth= −16.6 X 10 -5
Pyrolytic carbon= −40.9 X 10 -5
In that only water and mercury are liquids and rest of the materials are solids. Mercury is a bit stronger diamagnetic material than water.
If you use mercury as working fluid and hold strongest magnet on this earth near the tube, you may get a height difference of few milimeters!!
Just remember that the diamagnetic liquid in that tube will still be diamagnetic inside the thin tube that connects left and right side of the "U". So there cannot be a continous flow from one side to the other.
If the magnet can defeat gravity that much, it will defeat how gravity act on the liquid in the thin tube as well.
Vidar
If you use a steel connecting tube, it shields the magnetic flux and diamagnetic fluid can easily flow through it. I don't think it is a problem at all.
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If you use a steel connecting tube, it shields the magnetic flux and diamagnetic fluid can easily flow through it. I don't think it is a problem at all.
It will not work. Steel will guide magnetism away from the experiment too, making the liquid level difference smaller between left and right side of the "U". That will reduce the difference in possible potential energy just by the same bit as you shield the pipe.
Speaking of potential difference. There are actually no potential difference in this system as long it is static, and the magnet is kept permanently in place. So it is anyways impossible for this system to flow liquids just by itself.
Just try it and see for yourself. I bet a million dollars it won't work ;)
Vidar
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Speaking of potential difference. There are actually no potential difference in this system as long it is static, and the magnet is kept permanently in place. So it is anyways impossible for this system to flow liquids just by itself.
Just try it and see for yourself. I bet a million dollars it won't work
Vidar
Magnet is kept static to repel the liquid. Potential difference is created by gravity. These two are different forces. Just astemperature difference causes heat energy to flow, force difference causes mechanical energy to flow.
There is a chance of this experiment working. I cannot build it because I don't have very strong magnets with me. You request NASA scientists to build it and comform and give one million dollars to me!
Tell the NASA scientists to build it like this. It works!!
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Vidar:'I bet a million dollars it won't work ;) '
Be careful with your money.this battery will work.o2 is magnetic.I've tested it
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Magnet is kept static to repel the liquid. Potential difference is created by gravity. These two are different forces. Just astemperature difference causes heat energy to flow, force difference causes mechanical energy to flow.
There is a chance of this experiment working. I cannot build it because I don't have very strong magnets with me. You request NASA scientists to build it and comform and give one million dollars to me!
Tell the NASA scientists to build it like this. It works!!
No, no, no, no...! You forget something very basic here.
The magnet defeat gravity, so how can gravity do the work that is already defeated by the magnet?
Also remember that force equals counterforce. Newton! Remember him?
Well, if you don't, here are some basic principles:
Magnetism is a force
Gravity is a force
None of those are containing energy.
Energy is required to do work.
Without energy, work cannot be done.
So, here you go. Hope it clearify some ;)
BTW: I can build it. I have hose, water and a bunch of neodym magnets. I will prove to you it won't work.
I will post a video on youtube.
Vidar
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Vidar:'I bet a million dollars it won't work ;) '
Be careful with your money.this battery will work.o2 is magnetic.I've tested it
That battery will not generate electricity forever. I bet a million dollar for you too ;)
H2O is somewhat diamagnetic. Maybe O2 is magnetic, but that doesn't mean it can provide electricity forever using a magnet.
Do you know what happens to iron in the presence of pure oxygen? It "burns" into rust in relatively short time.
EDIT: And that potassium hydroxide bath you have, will not release ions forever....unless you refuel, and change the iron sponges on a regular basis.
Vidar
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Vidar:'That battery will not generate electricity forever. I bet a million dollar for you too ;)'
Me:I bet you a million it will work forever and a day ;). Iron is totaly passivated in alkali solution(this is why they make NiMh batteries in a steel case).Fe2O3 surface is a wellknown oxygen evolution and reduction catalyst.fuel cell cathodes have been tested using this magnetic principal to enhance o2 uptake and hence voltage and current densities.google it
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In the perpetual battery: cathode: o + h20 + 2e-> 2oh- anode: 2oh-> o + h2o + 2e-. Voltage: e=RT/nF ln c.O2(a)/c.O2(b) ...c is for oxygen concentration.you may use nickel sponge inplace of iron sponge,if you want
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Magnetism is a force
Gravity is a force
None of those are containing energy.
Energy is required to do work.
Force cannot appear by itself. Energy is required to generate force also. What is supplying energy to generate force in magnetic and gravitational fields?
BTW: I can build it. I have hose, water and a bunch of neodym magnets. I will prove to you it won't work.
I will post a video on youtube.
Wish you good luck! But can I believe you? If it works, you will not post the video because you will loose million dollars!!! Somebody must be a fool to hammer crow bar on his own .... :) :) :)
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Force cannot appear by itself. Energy is required to generate force also. What is supplying energy to generate force in magnetic and gravitational fields?
Wish you good luck! But can I believe you? If it works, you will not post the video because you will loose million dollars!!! Somebody must be a fool to hammer crow bar on his own .... :) :) :)
Energy is required to generate acceleration.
EDIT: Force don't need energy. Force can increase and decrease without any change in energy.
You can squeeze your hands together with great force, or little force, but the energy between your hands is zero. The only energy there is is energy loss in your body.
You can put a magnet on a rotor, and spin it close to a heavy iron piece. Say the magnet cannot lift the iron from ground for each pass, the iron piece will act less force to the ground in the moment where the magnet is passing, but no energy is spent or lost.
Only if the magnet is strong enough to lift the iron piece, the spinning magnet will loose some konetic energy each time the iron piece is lifted, and finally stop.
The lost kinetic energy is causd by the iron piece which is accelerating towards the magnet.
The same, or similar, thing wil happen to the "U". As long the magnet appearently can force the liquid to flow, the liquid will stop flowing already before it has started. So absolutely nothing will happen.
Vidar
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EDIT: Force don't need energy. Force can increase and decrease without any change in energy.
You can squeeze your hands together with great force, or little force, but the energy between your hands is zero. The only energy there is is energy loss in your body.
You are telling it in a reverse way. I can press my hands together with great force only if I have energy in my body. If I don't eat anything for a week can I press my hands very hard?
The same, or similar, thing wil happen to the "U". As long the magnet appearently can force the liquid to flow, the liquid will stop flowing already before it has started. So absolutely nothing will happen.
If you have strong magnets with you, it takes hardly few minutes to conduct this experiment. Did you try?
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You are telling it in a reverse way. I can press my hands together with great force only if I have energy in my body. If I don't eat anything for a week can I press my hands very hard?
If you have strong magnets with you, it takes hardly few minutes to conduct this experiment. Did you try?
Your body does not conserve energy when you use it to force something together. Like an electric motor which have windings with resistance, this motor will consume energy due to losses if you stop it while it is still connected to the powersupply. While the motor isn't rotating, there is no energy in the rotor anymore, but the windings burns hot due to resistance. Called energy loss. Same thing happens inside your body.
If an object with a given weight is resting on a surface, force is acting equally in both directions - no energy. Not even potential energy is present.
Yes, I have tried the experiment with the iron piece. I have also experimented with a pendulum. A spring at the bottom holds a weight. As long there is little loss in the spring, the pendulum will conserve the energy in the bouncing weight, but as soon as I put cotton pads inside the spring, in order to add a resistance into the spring, the pendulum slows down in shorter time. This experiment is also much similar to the first. As the bounce represent the moving iron piece.
This last experiment was done because I wanted to test if gravity assistance could transfer energy into the cotton (as heat) while the weight was bouncing without slowing down the pendulum - As expected, the experiment failed. The pendulum transfered energy into the cotton, but on the expense of pendulum movement.
If I put lots of cotton inside the spring, so much that the ball of cotton became hard and dense, the bounce of the weight did not occour anymore because the spring couldn't strech or compress, and the pendulum kept going for much longer time. That because little energy was transferred into the dense cotton.
So using gravity as assistance to increase power output, will fail. No matter what opinions people have about the subject.
Vidar
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All the above experiments use gravity as medium to do the work but not gravity itself to do the work. When you lift a weight and drop it down, work is done by your hand and gravity behaves only as medium to store the work when lifted up and release the work when dropped down.
When a mass moves near a black hole, it will be attracted towards the black hole by gravitational field itself making the field itself to do the work.
In the topic experiment, diamagnetic liquid is repelled by field itself in which field itself is doing the work. The reverse force of fluid on magnet is transferred to the ground by grouting the magnets strongly to the ground.
Energy will be conserved in the above experiment only if the liquid loses its diamagnetic property after sometimes and gets converted into some other liquid. In that case you have to supply equal amount of energy to make it original liquid which you used in the experiment.
There is lot of difference between using the filed as medium to do work and field itself doing the work.
Think about it.
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The field is then only a force that make it neccessary to spend work in order to move an object within it. It is the supplied energy that has to suffer, and in any case there is supplied energy. By any means an energy source that is applied into the experiment.
The liquid experiment will not work, because wether the field is used as a medium to do work, or the field itself doing the work, does not matter. The loop is closed so in any possible way you look at it, the experiment is depending on what happens anywhere in the loop. As much force in reverse as in forward. Force equals counterforce. If force cannot make something to move, there must be a counter force that is exactly the same.
Let resistance away from the experiment, and look solely on the force, there must be force that is directional. Some kind of "smart" force which decide for itself that it wants to force the liquid to move in just one direction. I don't believe that will happen.
However, I do think I understand how you think, and find it somewhat mind boggeling, but the problem is that if the magnet can push the liquid level so high at the opposite side that it could start to drip from a decent hight over the magnet again, the magnet must be so strong, or the liquid so diamagnetic, the interaction between the the magnet and liquid would prevent the dripping from happening also.
In practice, if water is used, the difference in level is very very little, and also very very little potential differenc with respect to gravity, so the magnet will in any way prevent the water from dripping back to where the water started.
It would be easier to do the experiment with a magnetid liquid - like ferro fluid. I have a bottle with it. Bought cheap on ebay, but it dries out if I'm not putting the cap on. Not sure if it is liquid any more. I will check. I've experimented with it a few years ago, but never tried similar (but opposite) experiment as you suggested initially in this thread.
Vidar
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Energy is required to generate acceleration.
You can put a magnet on a rotor, and spin it close to a heavy iron piece. Say the magnet cannot lift the iron from ground for each pass, the iron piece will act less force to the ground in the moment where the magnet is passing, but no energy is spent or lost.
Only if the magnet is strong enough to lift the iron piece, the spinning magnet will loose some konetic energy each time the iron piece is lifted, and finally stop.
The lost kinetic energy is causd by the iron piece which is accelerating towards the magnet.
Vidar
There are some obvious flaws in your logic here....
The magnetic attraction between the magnet and steel, creates an opposing FORCE, imparted onto both the iron AND the magnet.
This force will act against the rotation of the magnet (even if it is not strong enough to fully lift the iron), thus slowing the magnet down, and decreasing the energy in the system.
The motion of the iron has nothing to do with the energy causing the magnet to spin. This loss of energy is directly tied to both the forces of magnetic attraction (induction in the iron), and the force of gravity keeping the iron on the ground.
Gravity, being only a force, takes energy out of systems all the time.
For example: take a model rocket engine, when you ignite the fuel, a calculable amount of energy is released, causing a propulsion force.
if this rocket is attached to something too heavy for it to lift, this energy is still dispensed, however, the object never moves.
the difference between two forces CAN be used impart motion upon a system.
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The problem I have with this particular set-up is this::
the weight of the entire column of liquid is being lifted by magnetic repulsion.
this tells me, that anything less than dumping more than that amount into the top of the tube, will simply be repelled away from the magnets, causing the liquid to go upwards in the left side of the tube, NOT drop down inside the field, to push the existing liquid further along...
the liquid will be repelled from entering the top of the tube, causing a "gap" where the magnetic field is, and thus no motion of liquid, without removing the magnets, then re-inserting them into place, in a switching action. Or some equivalent.
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Vidar:'The liquid experiment will not work, because wether the field is used as a medium to do work, or the field itself doing the work, does not matter. The loop is closed so in any possible way you look at it, the experiment is depending on what happens anywhere in the loop.'
I wonder what effect dia-magnetic repulsion will have on the vapour-pressure(surface tension) of the liquid? If it has effect then we might get cyclic liquid-vapour movements
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There are some obvious flaws in your logic here....
The magnetic attraction between the magnet and steel, creates an opposing FORCE, imparted onto both the iron AND the magnet.
This force will act against the rotation of the magnet (even if it is not strong enough to fully lift the iron), thus slowing the magnet down, and decreasing the energy in the system.
The attraction between the iron and the magnet is also accelerating the magnet as it approach the iron. Just as much as the same attraction resist the magnet to continue after passing the iron. So there is no slowing down (Assuming there is no mechanical loss in the system).
The motion of the iron has nothing to do with the energy causing the magnet to spin. This loss of energy is directly tied to both the forces of magnetic attraction (induction in the iron), and the force of gravity keeping the iron on the ground.
The movement of the iron has nothing to do with the energy causing the magnet to spin. You're right, but that was not my claim.
The movement in the iron caused by the passing magnet, will cause the pendulum to slow down. Inertia of the iron will force the iron to continue in the same direction as it initialy was pulled into by the magnet. So when the magnet has passed, or on its way to do so, the iron that is still moving away (A tiny bit) from the magnet will slow the magnet down. The iron will eventually turn back, but too late due to its inetria. This is the reason why the pendulum slows down when the iron is allowed to move due to magnetic attraction.
Gravity, being only a force, takes energy out of systems all the time.
For example: take a model rocket engine, when you ignite the fuel, a calculable amount of energy is released, causing a propulsion force.
if this rocket is attached to something too heavy for it to lift, this energy is still dispensed, however, the object never moves.
You're right about the rocket. The rocket burns fuel, but that energy is solely loss if the rocket cannot accelerate away from the force of gravity. However, the energy in the rockets body is zero.
In a sinusodial function, like what you find in a pendulum, gravity isn't causing the pendulum to stop. These functions contains only reactive power. Reactive power poses no load in the system, and cannot do work. Thus it cannot resist the pendulum from continue forever in the field of gravity (assuming there is no friction).
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the liquid will be repelled from entering the top of the tube, causing a "gap" where the magnetic field is, and thus no motion of liquid, without removing the magnets, then re-inserting them into place, in a switching action. Or some equivalent.
If it was that simple. Using electromagnets would make that easy, but it would require energy - just as much energy you need to remove and re-insert the magnet.
Vidar
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Vidar:'The liquid experiment will not work, because wether the field is used as a medium to do work, or the field itself doing the work, does not matter. The loop is closed so in any possible way you look at it, the experiment is depending on what happens anywhere in the loop.'
I wonder what effect dia-magnetic repulsion will have on the vapour-pressure(surface tension) of the liquid? If it has effect then we might get cyclic liquid-vapour movements
I believe that the vapour, which is built up by the same type of molecules as the liquid, would be repelled by the magnet too.
Or, maybe I misunderstood your point?
Vidar
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practice, if water is used, the difference in level is very very little, and also very very little potential differenc with respect to gravity, so the magnet will in any way prevent the water from dripping back to where the water started.
I agree with you on that issue. Negligible height difference is only the problem. So, when liquid moves through thin connecting tube, it may get repelled by magnetic field existing at the end preventing the liquid from falling down.
That is the reason why I said request the NASA scientists to do that experiment. They can create a very strong magnetic field leading to a height difference of atleast half a meter so that the liquid falling down gains some kinetic energy easily passes through the magnetic field and rests on the lower level. (liquid cannot float in mid air even in the presence of magnetic field)
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I agree with you on that issue. Negligible height difference is only the problem. So, when liquid moves through thin connecting tube, it may get repelled by magnetic field existing at the end preventing the liquid from falling down.
That is the reason why I said request the NASA scientists to do that experiment. They can create a very strong magnetic field leading to a height difference of atleast half a meter so that the liquid falling down gains some kinetic energy easily passes through the magnetic field and rests on the lower level. (liquid cannot float in mid air even in the presence of magnetic field)
The kinetic energy is reflecting the potential energy in the lifted water column. If the magnet can lift the water 0,5 meter high, there is a potential energy in that column that is released in the water that falls down. So the magnet will still be strong enough to prevent the water from going back to repeat the cycle.
The falling water will deflect an miss the input. If a cylinder is prevnting the water from deflecting away from the magnet, water will build up in the cylinder above the magnet leaving an emty space, a bubble, where the magnet is present.
Vidar