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Author Topic: Perpetual diamagnetic liquid  (Read 14466 times)

Offline Newton II

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Re: Perpetual diamagnetic liquid
« Reply #15 on: February 25, 2015, 10:36:32 AM »

EDIT: Force don't need energy. Force can increase and decrease without any change in energy.
You can squeeze your hands together with great force, or little force, but the energy between your hands is zero. The only energy there is is energy loss in your body.


You are telling it in a reverse way.  I can press my hands together with great force only if I have energy in my body.  If I don't eat anything for a week can I press my hands very hard?


The same, or similar, thing wil happen to the "U". As long the magnet appearently can force the liquid to flow, the liquid will stop flowing already before it has started. So absolutely nothing will happen.


If you have strong magnets with you, it takes hardly few minutes to conduct this experiment.  Did you try?

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Re: Perpetual diamagnetic liquid
« Reply #15 on: February 25, 2015, 10:36:32 AM »

Offline Low-Q

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Re: Perpetual diamagnetic liquid
« Reply #16 on: February 25, 2015, 09:36:25 PM »
You are telling it in a reverse way.  I can press my hands together with great force only if I have energy in my body.  If I don't eat anything for a week can I press my hands very hard?

If you have strong magnets with you, it takes hardly few minutes to conduct this experiment.  Did you try?
Your body does not conserve energy when you use it to force something together. Like an electric motor which have windings with resistance, this motor will consume energy due to losses if you stop it while it is still connected to the powersupply. While the motor isn't rotating, there is no energy in the rotor anymore, but the windings burns hot due to resistance. Called energy loss. Same thing happens inside your body.


If an object with a given weight is resting on a surface, force is acting equally in both directions - no energy. Not even potential energy is present.


Yes, I have tried the experiment with the iron piece. I have also experimented with a pendulum. A spring at the bottom holds a weight. As long there is little loss in the spring, the pendulum will conserve the energy in the bouncing weight, but as soon as I put cotton pads inside the spring, in order to add a resistance into the spring, the pendulum slows down in shorter time. This experiment is also much similar to the first. As the bounce represent the moving iron piece.


This last experiment was done because I wanted to test if gravity assistance could transfer energy into the cotton (as heat) while the weight was bouncing without slowing down the pendulum - As expected, the experiment failed. The pendulum transfered energy into the cotton, but on the expense of pendulum movement.
If I put lots of cotton inside the spring, so much that the ball of cotton became hard and dense, the bounce of the weight did not occour anymore because the spring couldn't strech or compress, and the pendulum kept going for much longer time. That because little energy was transferred into the dense cotton.


So using gravity as assistance to increase power output, will fail. No matter what opinions people have about the subject.


Vidar

Offline Newton II

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Re: Perpetual diamagnetic liquid
« Reply #17 on: February 26, 2015, 10:29:14 AM »
All the above experiments use gravity as medium to do the work but not gravity itself to do the work.  When you lift a weight and drop it down, work is done by your hand and gravity behaves only as medium to store the work when lifted up and release the work when  dropped down.

When a mass moves near a black hole,  it will be attracted towards the black hole by gravitational field itself making the field itself to do the work.

In the topic experiment, diamagnetic liquid is repelled by field itself in which field itself is doing the work.  The reverse force of fluid on magnet is transferred to the ground by grouting the magnets strongly to the ground.

Energy will be conserved in the above experiment only if the liquid loses its diamagnetic property after sometimes and gets converted into some other liquid.  In that case you have to supply equal amount of energy to make it original liquid which you used in the experiment.

There is lot of difference between using the filed as medium to do work and field itself doing the work.

Think about it.

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Re: Perpetual diamagnetic liquid
« Reply #17 on: February 26, 2015, 10:29:14 AM »
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Offline Low-Q

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Re: Perpetual diamagnetic liquid
« Reply #18 on: February 26, 2015, 08:35:20 PM »
The field is then only a force that make it neccessary to spend work in order to move an object within it. It is the supplied energy that has to suffer, and in any case there is supplied energy. By any means an energy source that is applied into the experiment.


The liquid experiment will not work, because wether the field is used as a medium to do work, or the field itself doing the work, does not matter. The loop is closed so in any possible way you look at it, the experiment is depending on what happens anywhere in the loop. As much force in reverse as in forward. Force equals counterforce. If force cannot make something to move, there must be a counter force that is exactly the same.


Let resistance away from the experiment, and look solely on the force, there must be force that is directional. Some kind of "smart" force which decide for itself that it wants to force the liquid to move in just one direction. I don't believe that will happen.


However, I do think I understand how you think, and find it somewhat mind boggeling, but the problem is that if the magnet can push the liquid level so high at the opposite side that it could start to drip from a decent hight over the magnet again, the magnet must be so strong, or the liquid so diamagnetic, the interaction between the the magnet and liquid would prevent the dripping from happening also.


In practice, if water is used, the difference in level is very very little, and also very very little potential differenc with respect to gravity, so the magnet will in any way prevent the water from dripping back to where the water started.


It would be easier to do the experiment with a magnetid liquid - like ferro fluid. I have a bottle with it. Bought cheap on ebay, but it dries out if I'm not putting the cap on. Not sure if it is liquid any more. I will check. I've experimented with it a few years ago, but never tried similar (but opposite) experiment as you suggested initially in this thread.


Vidar


Offline sm0ky2

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Re: Perpetual diamagnetic liquid
« Reply #19 on: February 28, 2015, 12:57:11 AM »
Energy is required to generate acceleration.

You can put a magnet on a rotor, and spin it close to a heavy iron piece. Say the magnet cannot lift the iron from ground for each pass, the iron piece will act less force to the ground in the moment where the magnet is passing, but no energy is spent or lost.

Only if the magnet is strong enough to lift the iron piece, the spinning magnet will loose some konetic energy each time the iron piece is lifted, and finally stop.
The lost kinetic energy is causd by the iron piece which is accelerating towards the magnet.

Vidar


There are some obvious flaws in your logic here....   
The magnetic attraction between the magnet and steel, creates an opposing FORCE, imparted onto both the iron AND the magnet.
This force will act against the rotation of the magnet (even if it is not strong enough to fully lift the iron), thus slowing the magnet down, and decreasing the energy in the system.

The motion of the iron has nothing to do with the energy causing the magnet to spin. This loss of energy is directly tied to both the forces of magnetic attraction (induction in the iron), and the force of gravity keeping the iron on the ground.

Gravity, being only a force, takes energy out of systems all the time.
For example: take a model rocket engine, when you ignite the fuel, a calculable amount of energy is released, causing a propulsion force.
if this rocket is attached to something too heavy for it to lift, this energy is still dispensed, however, the object never moves.

the difference between two forces CAN be used impart motion upon a system.
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The problem I have with this particular set-up is this::

the weight of the entire column of liquid is being lifted by magnetic repulsion.

this tells me, that anything less than dumping more than that amount into the top of the tube, will simply be repelled away from the magnets, causing the liquid to go upwards in the left side of the tube, NOT drop down inside the field, to push the existing liquid further along...

the liquid will be repelled from entering the top of the tube, causing a "gap" where the magnetic field is, and thus no motion of liquid, without removing the magnets, then re-inserting them into place, in a switching action. Or some equivalent.





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Re: Perpetual diamagnetic liquid
« Reply #19 on: February 28, 2015, 12:57:11 AM »
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Offline profitis

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Re: Perpetual diamagnetic liquid
« Reply #20 on: February 28, 2015, 03:10:05 AM »
Vidar:'The liquid experiment will not work, because wether the field is used as a medium to do work, or the field itself doing the work, does not matter. The loop is closed so in any possible way you look at it, the experiment is depending on what happens anywhere in the loop.'

I wonder what effect dia-magnetic repulsion will have on the vapour-pressure(surface tension) of the liquid? If it has effect then we might get cyclic liquid-vapour movements

Offline Low-Q

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Re: Perpetual diamagnetic liquid
« Reply #21 on: February 28, 2015, 07:23:18 PM »

There are some obvious flaws in your logic here....   
The magnetic attraction between the magnet and steel, creates an opposing FORCE, imparted onto both the iron AND the magnet.
This force will act against the rotation of the magnet (even if it is not strong enough to fully lift the iron), thus slowing the magnet down, and decreasing the energy in the system.
The attraction between the iron and the magnet is also accelerating the magnet as it approach the iron. Just as much as the same attraction resist the magnet to continue after passing the iron. So there is no slowing down (Assuming there is no mechanical loss in the system).

Quote
The motion of the iron has nothing to do with the energy causing the magnet to spin. This loss of energy is directly tied to both the forces of magnetic attraction (induction in the iron), and the force of gravity keeping the iron on the ground.
The movement of the iron has nothing to do with the energy causing the magnet to spin. You're right, but that was not my claim.
The movement in the iron caused by the passing magnet, will cause the pendulum to slow down. Inertia of the iron will force the iron to continue in the same direction as it initialy was pulled into by the magnet. So when the magnet has passed, or on its way to do so, the iron that is still moving away (A tiny bit) from the magnet will slow the magnet down. The iron will eventually turn back, but too late due to its inetria. This is the reason why the pendulum slows down when the iron is allowed to move due to magnetic attraction.

Quote
Gravity, being only a force, takes energy out of systems all the time.
For example: take a model rocket engine, when you ignite the fuel, a calculable amount of energy is released, causing a propulsion force.
if this rocket is attached to something too heavy for it to lift, this energy is still dispensed, however, the object never moves.
You're right about the rocket. The rocket burns fuel, but that energy is solely loss if the rocket cannot accelerate away from the force of gravity. However, the energy in the rockets body is zero.
In a sinusodial function, like what you find in a pendulum, gravity isn't causing the pendulum to stop. These functions contains only reactive power. Reactive power poses no load in the system, and cannot do work. Thus it cannot resist the pendulum from continue forever in the field of gravity (assuming there is no friction).




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Quote
the liquid will be repelled from entering the top of the tube, causing a "gap" where the magnetic field is, and thus no motion of liquid, without removing the magnets, then re-inserting them into place, in a switching action. Or some equivalent.
If it was that simple. Using electromagnets would make that easy, but it would require energy - just as much energy you need to remove and re-insert the magnet.


Vidar

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Re: Perpetual diamagnetic liquid
« Reply #21 on: February 28, 2015, 07:23:18 PM »
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Offline Low-Q

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Re: Perpetual diamagnetic liquid
« Reply #22 on: February 28, 2015, 07:31:52 PM »
Vidar:'The liquid experiment will not work, because wether the field is used as a medium to do work, or the field itself doing the work, does not matter. The loop is closed so in any possible way you look at it, the experiment is depending on what happens anywhere in the loop.'

I wonder what effect dia-magnetic repulsion will have on the vapour-pressure(surface tension) of the liquid? If it has effect then we might get cyclic liquid-vapour movements
I believe that the vapour, which is built up by the same type of molecules as the liquid, would be repelled by the magnet too.
Or, maybe I misunderstood your point?


Vidar

Offline Newton II

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Re: Perpetual diamagnetic liquid
« Reply #23 on: March 01, 2015, 08:40:07 AM »
practice, if water is used, the difference in level is very very little, and also very very little potential differenc with respect to gravity, so the magnet will in any way prevent the water from dripping back to where the water started.

I agree with you on that issue.  Negligible height difference is only the problem. So, when liquid moves through thin connecting tube, it may get repelled by magnetic field existing at the end preventing the liquid from falling down.

That is the reason why I said request the NASA scientists to do that experiment.  They can create a very strong magnetic field leading to a height difference of atleast half a meter so that the liquid falling down gains some kinetic energy easily passes through the magnetic field and rests on the lower level. (liquid cannot float in mid air even in the presence of magnetic field)



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Re: Perpetual diamagnetic liquid
« Reply #23 on: March 01, 2015, 08:40:07 AM »
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Offline Low-Q

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Re: Perpetual diamagnetic liquid
« Reply #24 on: March 01, 2015, 12:48:37 PM »
I agree with you on that issue.  Negligible height difference is only the problem. So, when liquid moves through thin connecting tube, it may get repelled by magnetic field existing at the end preventing the liquid from falling down.

That is the reason why I said request the NASA scientists to do that experiment.  They can create a very strong magnetic field leading to a height difference of atleast half a meter so that the liquid falling down gains some kinetic energy easily passes through the magnetic field and rests on the lower level. (liquid cannot float in mid air even in the presence of magnetic field)
The kinetic energy is reflecting the potential energy in the lifted water column. If the magnet can lift the water 0,5 meter high, there is a potential energy in that column that is released in the water that falls down. So the magnet will still be strong enough to prevent the water from going back to repeat the cycle.
The falling water will deflect an miss the input. If a cylinder is prevnting the water from deflecting away from the magnet, water will build up in the cylinder above the magnet leaving an emty space, a bubble, where the magnet is present.


Vidar

 

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