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2022 builders survivor board => Floors MMM-2 builders board => Topic started by: Floor on January 31, 2015, 04:32:01 PM

Title: Thin Magnetic Ramp experiment
Post by: Floor on January 31, 2015, 04:32:01 PM
Based upon an obvious / old idea ?

I had this idea some time ago when I first read that Vgate
arrangements could draw a sphere up an incline.

I always expected that some one else would or must have
already tried this experiment ?  I thought it was going to
be just a matter of time before we would see some kind of
a magnetic ramp doing cyclical work.

I didn't want to be stepping on someones else's project or idea
so I have left it alone until now.

Attached below are several PDF files,  they show a progression
of the project / idea.  The Ball and ramp 7b.PDF is the latest
explanation of the experiments progression.  The other files
may add some clarity as to how the experiment has been
evolving.

ITS LOOKING GOOD AT THIS POINT !

                      cheers
                             floor
Title: Re: Thin Magnetic Ramp experiment
Post by: Floor on January 31, 2015, 04:43:05 PM
Notes / progress report

floor
Title: Re: Thin Magnetic Ramp experiment
Post by: Floor on January 31, 2015, 04:45:40 PM
A previous version

               floor
Title: Re: Thin Magnetic Ramp experiment
Post by: Floor on January 31, 2015, 04:48:13 PM
Two earlier versions

      floor
Title: Re: Thin Magnetic Ramp experiment
Post by: TinselKoala on January 31, 2015, 07:02:42 PM
Well, you are right about one thing: The experiment has been tried before. Several times.   ;)

Starting with the first published version in 1659, the Taisnierus' device, which is the magnet ramp and ball reduced to the simplest parts.
Title: Re: Thin Magnetic Ramp experiment
Post by: Floor on January 31, 2015, 08:30:43 PM
@TinselKoala

Quote from TK "Taisnierus' device, which is the magnet ramp and ball reduced to the simplest parts."

"the magnet ramp and ball"

Sure there is a magnet, a ramp, and a ball,  but no cylinder, and it's not the same concept.

I'm doubting that you actually even studied and or understood what I posted before you dismissed it.

Honestly, have you?

The "Taisnierus"  device is related but hardly relevant.

Please don't try to argue it's relevance, just say oops sorry and let's move on.

                         best wishes
                                   floor
Title: Re: Thin Magnetic Ramp experiment
Post by: dieter on January 31, 2015, 08:35:23 PM
There was also this crackpot idea about "flying vehicles". Ever since the foolish ideas of a "Leonardo Da Vinci", men tried to "fly" for centuries, many have tried, but after several hundred years of failure, mankind eventually gave up. Thank god, otherwise we'd have "flying vehicles" all over.


However, Floor, one thing is for sure: it's not an easy thing to construct.


BR

Title: Re: Thin Magnetic Ramp experiment
Post by: MarkE on January 31, 2015, 11:13:57 PM
There was also this crackpot idea about "flying vehicles". Ever since the foolish ideas of a "Leonardo Da Vinci", men tried to "fly" for centuries, many have tried, but after several hundred years of failure, mankind eventually gave up. Thank god, otherwise we'd have "flying vehicles" all over.


However, Floor, one thing is for sure: it's not an easy thing to construct.


BR
I heard about that.  It had something to do with the imaginary sightings of these mythical heavier than air animals that would allegedly take flight.  Obviously there were no such animals. So obviously HTA was impossible.  So obviously no one ever worked on HTA flight.
Title: Re: Thin Magnetic Ramp experiment
Post by: MarkE on January 31, 2015, 11:15:36 PM
@TinselKoala

Quote from TK "Taisnierus' device, which is the magnet ramp and ball reduced to the simplest parts."

"the magnet ramp and ball"

Sure there is a magnet, a ramp, and a ball,  but no cylinder, and it's not the same concept.

I'm doubting that you actually even studied and or understood what I posted before you dismissed it.

Honestly, have you?

The "Taisnierus"  device is related but hardly relevant.

Please don't try to argue it's relevance, just say oops sorry and let's move on.

                         best wishes
                                   floor
When you manage that minor detail of returning the ball to its starting position without expending external energy, do let us know.
Title: Re: Thin Magnetic Ramp experiment
Post by: Pirate88179 on February 01, 2015, 01:16:28 AM
When you manage that minor detail of returning the ball to its starting position without expending external energy, do let us know.

Aww come on Mark...we have to count external energy?  (Mr. Hand)  That will make it even harder to do then.

Bill
Title: Re: Thin Magnetic Ramp experiment
Post by: TinselKoala on February 01, 2015, 02:17:42 AM
@TinselKoala

Quote from TK "Taisnierus' device, which is the magnet ramp and ball reduced to the simplest parts."

"the magnet ramp and ball"

Sure there is a magnet, a ramp, and a ball,  but no cylinder, and it's not the same concept.

I'm doubting that you actually even studied and or understood what I posted before you dismissed it.

Honestly, have you?

The "Taisnierus"  device is related but hardly relevant.

Please don't try to argue it's relevance, just say oops sorry and let's move on.

                         best wishes
                                   floor

It is certainly related and certainly relevant, and the same principles are at play: The moving part (in any geometry) is supposed to be pulled up a ramp by magnets, located wherever. The device fails _as you have noted yourself_ because the moving part can't make it past the potential well in order to fall back down and around to the entrance of the ramp or to another ramp. This is the basic SMOT design which has been discussed in thread after thread here and in many other places in all its variants. Elecar claimed to have solved the problem but of course did not, and he even resorted to making a FAKE video showing a looping system that didn't actually work.  You are the one who needs to say "oops" and move on, because it's pretty clear that you haven't done your homework on this one. There is no arrangement of magnets, ramps, moving objects that will do what you want it to do, which is to self-loop or reset itself without input of external energy. None! And thousands upon thousands of experiments by many many people ever since Taisnierus have tried to make it work and have not been able to do so.

And of course I "studied" and understood your documents, which show a simple SMOT that has been constructed in various forms for many years. There is even a WIKI page on the original "SMOT" which wasn't even original when Greg Watson "invented" it in 1985.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simple_Magnetic_Overunity_Toy


Title: Re: Thin Magnetic Ramp experiment
Post by: TinselKoala on February 01, 2015, 02:19:49 AM
There was also this crackpot idea about "flying vehicles". Ever since the foolish ideas of a "Leonardo Da Vinci", men tried to "fly" for centuries, many have tried, but after several hundred years of failure, mankind eventually gave up. Thank god, otherwise we'd have "flying vehicles" all over.


However, Floor, one thing is for sure: it's not an easy thing to construct.


BR

Birds, Dieter. Birds were heavier-than-air and were flying around long before Leonardo. Your "crackpot idea" is a strawman and a false analogy.

Where is the example from nature of anything like a SMOT? Nowhere, that's where.
Title: Re: Thin Magnetic Ramp experiment
Post by: Floor on February 01, 2015, 03:15:46 PM
Quote from TK -- “And thousands upon thousands of experiments by
many many people ever since Taisnierus have tried to make it work and
have not been able to do so. “

It's good to make this clear I think.

Quote from MarkE “When you manage that minor detail of returning the
ball to its starting position without expending external energy, do let us know.”

I'll let you know for sure.
Whatever results may come from the experiments they will be clearly and
honestly posted here.
Title: Re: Thin Magnetic Ramp experiment
Post by: Floor on February 01, 2015, 03:52:09 PM
Mag Ramp 7b     Notes amended and re posted.
Title: Re: Thin Magnetic Ramp experiment
Post by: Floor on February 01, 2015, 04:47:20 PM
@Pirate88179

Correctamundo

Convention says that with out the help of mister hand
and even if I could negate friction, Iwill find that the cylinder
either gets stuck on a magnet or stuck at the bottom of a ramp.
           
                     cheers
                         floor
Title: Re: Thin Magnetic Ramp experiment
Post by: sm0ky2 on February 28, 2015, 02:06:48 AM
The SMOT, and its inverse (the Howard Johnson gate) have been extensively studied on this forum, and several other places,
in a multitude of variations.

the end result was always the same, either an attractive barrier at the end,  or a repulsive barrier at the beginning of the track.

The magnetic effect which causes the object (vehicle, cylinder, cone, ball, roller, etc.) to move
is also the same force that must be overcome to cycle the event.

Thus, best case scenario, negating all other losses... Net Energy = 0

 Demo of H.R. Johnsons' linear gate

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o6F9I5OiSTE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o6F9I5OiSTE)
Title: Re: Thin Magnetic Ramp experiment
Post by: Floor on March 24, 2015, 08:17:14 PM
The latest modification considerations for the thin magnet ramp.

1. A longer ramp or no ? -- yes
2. A straight ramp or a curved ramp ? -- curved
3. if a curved ramp,  should it be steeper at the start or at the end ?  -- start

 see the drawing below

                 cheers
                      floor
Title: Re: Thin Magnetic Ramp experiment
Post by: shylo on March 25, 2015, 08:48:43 PM
Hi Floor, I have to disagree, The length of the ramp should be as short as possible with as much rise as possible.
In todays' build I am able to rise 2in. over a distance of 3in.
I will add more tracks to see how high I can go, once high enough you need to let gravity and momentum take over.
If I get it to work , do I win a prize? Lol.
artv 
Title: Re: Thin Magnetic Ramp experiment
Post by: Floor on March 25, 2015, 11:06:17 PM
@Shylo

1. Yes you win a prize, if the top of your sphere or cylinder is
free from the ramp at the end of its travel.
and
2. it is higher than it was at the start of the ramp.

So shorter IS BETTER ? he he

What kind of magent arrangement are you useing ?

                      best wishes
                                 floor                           
Title: Re: Thin Magnetic Ramp experiment
Post by: mscoffman on March 26, 2015, 07:27:48 PM
Use a teeter-totter ramp at the top rotating a lead weight flywheel from an old cassette player.
Have a wire stick up through a hole in the ramp and dislodge the runner at high speed point- then get
the runner away from the array magnets fast, back to the array beginning. Maybe in a plastic tubing
pipe.
Title: Re: Thin Magnetic Ramp experiment
Post by: Floor on March 26, 2015, 07:53:38 PM
@MSCoffman

I've thought about useing a teeter totter ramp,
but the rest of what you are describing is unclear to me.
Could you do a sketch?
                         
                  cheers
                    floor
Title: Re: Thin Magnetic Ramp experiment
Post by: shylo on March 26, 2015, 10:03:51 PM
I'm not sure about the teeter-totter, A gradual curve maybe? Better to invert it.
I got a second track built today, but I had to change things, It now raises 3in. over a length of 18in.
The ring magnet is 3in. dia., 1" 1/8 thickness. It runs on a steel track, 1"1/4 wide  ~26 awg.
The hard part was getting it to release at the end of the run.
I want to drop it out at the end of its' run, go down a ramp, past a bunch of generating coils,then return to the start, where at the start it gets drawn back in.
artv
Title: Re: Thin Magnetic Ramp experiment
Post by: truesearch on March 26, 2015, 10:58:07 PM
@shylo:


Can you post a photo of your setup? I'd appreciate SEEING how you have it configured.


Thanks in advance and the best of luck to you in your efforts!


truesearch
Title: Re: Thin Magnetic Ramp experiment
Post by: mscoffman on March 27, 2015, 02:19:48 PM
Floor and others,

Picture a teeter-totter ramp where the ball moves to the far end. A teeter-totter has a balance point axle. Correct?
The flywheel would be attached to ramp at the axle point. When the runner unbalances the ramp it has to supply
the energy to get the flywheel to rotate which takes a little time, then the ramp will overshoot a little as the
runner is dislodged at the over end of it's rotation. A fixed spear pokes up through a hole in the ramp and forces
the runner to move along.

I think smot is hard partially because in the usual runner the movement's forward inertia is hard coupled to the
runners rotational momentum. I think the key will be to have a "automatic transmission" that will allow those two RPMxTorque
to be decoupled from one another even though the energies will be equal.

Getting the runner away from the mass of magnets as rapidly as possible is necessary to keep "control" of the runner.

Excellent work to user "shylo" and friends for getting the smot run/rise ratio that high.
Title: Re: Thin Magnetic Ramp experiment
Post by: Low-Q on March 27, 2015, 03:20:47 PM
Magnetic ramps does not work as a selfsustaining machine, and never will.
There is a very simple reason for this:
1. Permanent magnets cannot deliver energy
2. Gravity cannot deliver energy


Both fields are constant, and only if one of them or both are alternating (Delivering energy) you can make this ramp work as you want.


Vidar
Title: Re: Thin Magnetic Ramp experiment
Post by: shylo on March 28, 2015, 09:02:19 AM
Hi Vidar, I'm not sure what the magnet weighs a lb or 2, but the higher it can be dropped from the more work it can do , no?
I've got the 3rd track built ,it is now runs up to 4.5in high.
It is very frustrating though as I add more track ,it keeps changing things.
When the magnet gets ~2in from the start of the track ,magnetism takes over and sucks it in. My runner is a ring magnet, it's the only magnet I use.
If upon release, the magnet were to pass by coils ,on both sides of a declining ramp , back to the start of the track, Will they not generate?
artv
Title: Re: Thin Magnetic Ramp experiment
Post by: Low-Q on March 28, 2015, 04:30:00 PM
Hi Vidar, I'm not sure what the magnet weighs a lb or 2, but the higher it can be dropped from the more work it can do , no?
I've got the 3rd track built ,it is now runs up to 4.5in high.
It is very frustrating though as I add more track ,it keeps changing things.
When the magnet gets ~2in from the start of the track ,magnetism takes over and sucks it in. My runner is a ring magnet, it's the only magnet I use.
If upon release, the magnet were to pass by coils ,on both sides of a declining ramp , back to the start of the track, Will they not generate?
artv
If you drop a magnet from any hight, you have to apply that potential energy by hand in advance. So the work done is actually the work your hand did when lifting the magnet. Later this work can be transfered, but loss will cause some of the energy to transform into heat instead of work.
Adding tracks will only change the conditions of how this track "communicate" with the ball. The ball will respond to any change accordingly. You will never achieve more than a moving ball triggered by energy input.


Vidar
Title: Re: Thin Magnetic Ramp experiment
Post by: Floor on March 28, 2015, 07:27:48 PM
@LowQ

Quote from  LowQ
Both fields are constant, and only if one of them or both are alternating (Delivering energy)
you can make this ramp work as you want."
                                                             End Quote

I am in agreement with you at least in part, under the conditions as described in my
drawings and tests, the input and output should be (according to convention) equal
before losses, and worse after losses.  The magnetic energy would have to leave the sphere
or change in direction and go back to the magnets at the right point in time, in order for there
to be some kind of alternating, from which one could expect greater energy out than energy in.

                                      cheers
                                            floor
Title: Re: Thin Magnetic Ramp experiment
Post by: Low-Q on March 28, 2015, 07:50:26 PM
@LowQ

Quote from  LowQ
Both fields are constant, and only if one of them or both are alternating (Delivering energy)
you can make this ramp work as you want."
                                                             End Quote

I am in agreement with you at least in part, under the conditions as described in my
drawings and tests, the input and output should be (according to convention) equal
before losses, and worse after losses.  The magnetic energy would have to leave the sphere
or change in direction and go back to the magnets at the right point in time, in order for there
to be some kind of alternating, from which one could expect greater energy out than energy in.

                                      cheers
                                            floor
That sounds simpler than it really is. Alternating a force recuire energy.
If you move 1 kg mass from one place to another, it will still be 1kg. You don't change anything by moving it around - not even with the "right timing". I believe you think more complicated than neccessary.


Vidar
Title: Re: Thin Magnetic Ramp experiment
Post by: Floor on March 28, 2015, 08:24:39 PM
@Low-Q

Quote from Low-Q 
"That sounds simpler than it really is. Alternating a force recuire energy.
If you move 1 kg mass from one place to another, it will still be 1kg. You don't change anything by moving it around - not even with the "right timing". I believe you think more complicated than neccessary." End Quote

Which is it ?
"That sounds simpler than it really is."   or  "I believe you think more complicated than neccessary."

What are you saying ?
1. There is no way to get work from magnets.
         or
2. There is no KNOWN way to get work from magnets ?
         or
3. This topic is not interesting to you.                           
Title: Re: Thin Magnetic Ramp experiment
Post by: Low-Q on March 28, 2015, 11:58:41 PM
@Low-Q

Quote from Low-Q 
"That sounds simpler than it really is. Alternating a force recuire energy.
If you move 1 kg mass from one place to another, it will still be 1kg. You don't change anything by moving it around - not even with the "right timing". I believe you think more complicated than neccessary." End Quote

Which is it ?
"That sounds simpler than it really is."   or  "I believe you think more complicated than neccessary."

What are you saying ?
1. There is no way to get work from magnets.
         or
2. There is no KNOWN way to get work from magnets ?
         or
3. This topic is not interesting to you.                           
1. There is no way you can get work from magnets.
2. There is KNOWN that you cannot get work from magnets
3. These kind of topics are always interesting


You see, magnets holds potential energy after energy has been pumped in to magnetize them.
If this potential does not change over time, you cannot get work from magnets.


"Charge" a bucket with 10 litre of water. Poor out 5 litre water without reducing the volume of water in it. That is what you try to do with magnets. If the water level doesn't change, no water is poored out - no work done. If the water level drops, you have spent 50% for the potential energy in the water. 50% left in the bucket. However, there is no KNOWN way to poor out 5 litre and still have 10 litre left in the bucket without refilling it. The "hard" question here is how to refill 5 litre of water without water available? No one will ever find out? I think the question is well covered by logic and common sense.


Spend 50% of magnetism in a magnet to do work, and there is 50% left to do work, and the magnet is 50% weaker. When all magnetism is spent, you don't have a magnet any more - or you have an emty bucket, and no potential energy left to do work. Pure logic - but appearently for some, that does not apply to magnets. Well, it does. So now you've learned something new :-)
There is an obvious relationship between what you put in and what you get out. Well proven and well tested. NASA use the same simple laws of physics to hit a target on Mars. If there was a flaw in those laws, NASA wouldn't exist - nor the general industy all over the world.


Think simple. There is nothing spooky about magnets that does not apply to common physics.


Vidar
Title: Re: Thin Magnetic Ramp experiment
Post by: shylo on March 29, 2015, 03:20:57 AM
I read somewhere once that to store magnets they should have a keeper?
What happens when you bring a strong neo towards a piece of steel?
A magnet will always center itself on a layer of steel.
Offset the center.
artv
Title: Re: Thin Magnetic Ramp experiment
Post by: Floor on March 29, 2015, 08:48:37 AM
@Low-Q
 
I'll repeat my first question.

You said  "That sounds simpler than it really is."   buy then you say  "I believe you think more complicated than necessary."
Which of these statements do you intend that I take as your meaning ?

Most of what you have said is no more than anyone has heard by time they have finished  middle school.
and doesn't really need to be repeated here.

You have said  "Think simple. There is nothing spooky about magnets that does not apply to common physics."
What a strange statement you make !

The ultimate causes of ANY THING are not actually Know, by ANY ONE.  I think this statement is the first thing to
acknowledge in physics, lest we all become the scientific equivalent of religious zealots.
There is nothing shameful in the acceptance of this fact.

I don't know of any physics that doesn't depend upon action at a distance, do you ?

Common or not, the depths of physics are clearly not simple.

I do agree with you that it is sometimes best to keep to simple thinking.

You say
"If there was a flaw in those laws, NASA wouldn't exist - nor the general industy all over the world."
That is a misleading and untrue  statement.

I don't believe in the big bang theory.  I'm not supposed to.  It's a theory.
I do think there have been lots of big bangs in the universe.

If you want play chess, find a chess board and some one else to play against.

                     floor
Title: Re: Thin Magnetic Ramp experiment
Post by: Low-Q on March 29, 2015, 09:56:22 AM
@Low-Q
 
I'll repeat my first question.

Quote
You said  "That sounds simpler than it really is."   buy then you say  "I believe you think more complicated than necessary."
Which of these statements do you intend that I take as your meaning ?
Alternating a force without using energy sounds simpler than it really is - is what I meant with the first.
You must think more simple, or more basic - is what I meant with the second.
No matter how I expressed myself, one cannot get energy out of a permanent magnet.

Quote
Most of what you have said is no more than anyone has heard by time they have finished  middle school.
and doesn't really need to be repeated here.

You have said  "Think simple. There is nothing spooky about magnets that does not apply to common physics."
What a strange statement you make !
Why is this strange? And what's wrong repeating simple physics?
Some here appearently havent reach middle shcool yet, or they dropped out already in the kindergrden,
because some here still don't understand that overunity is impossible. Therefor I repeat middle school physics.

Quote
The ultimate causes of ANY THING are not actually Know, by ANY ONE.  I think this statement is the first thing to
acknowledge in physics, lest we all become the scientific equivalent of religious zealots.
There is nothing shameful in the acceptance of this fact.
No, but we don't need yo understand the origin of the universe to have sufficient knowledge about present physics.

Quote
I don't know of any physics that doesn't depend upon action at a distance, do you ?
You're right. In a closed loop however, the distance is repeated. You have a start point you return to and leave all the time.
So the netto distance that has been traveled is zero. Forexample, the circumference of a wheel does not increase as the wheel spins.

Quote
Common or not, the depths of physics are clearly not simple.
Lucky for us these devices we are trying to make over unity, require the shallowest physics skills to debunk.

Quote
I do agree with you that it is sometimes best to keep to simple thinking.
:)

Quote
You say
"If there was a flaw in those laws, NASA wouldn't exist - nor the general industy all over the world."
That is a misleading and untrue  statement.
Maybe it is, but this far, NASA make their calculations right, and the industries make their calculations right when it comes to
production of rockets, engines, electric motors, and other stuff.
IF over unity was common, it would be impossible to calculate correctly,
and unexpected motor or rocket behaviour would occour from nowhere.

Quote
I don't believe in the big bang theory.  I'm not supposed to.  It's a theory.
I do think there have been lots of big bangs in the universe.
I does not matter what we believe. What happend, happend regardless of our opinions.

Quote
If you want play chess, find a chess board and some one else to play against.
Are you mad at me because your idea can't work in practice? Blame Mother Nature - not me! ;)
Title: Re: Thin Magnetic Ramp experiment
Post by: sm0ky2 on March 29, 2015, 12:57:46 PM
1. There is no way you can get work from magnets.
2. There is KNOWN that you cannot get work from magnets
3. These kind of topics are always interesting


You see, magnets holds potential energy after energy has been pumped in to magnetize them.
If this potential does not change over time, you cannot get work from magnets.

Vidar

That is total B.S.

The energy we put into a magnetic material to "magnetize" it, is not equal to the Energy contained in the magnetic system.

The actual amount of energy is E = mc^2, times the % of atoms parallel to the cumulative field domain.
  times another atomic factor that pertains to the electrons and their orbits that varies from atom/molecule.

The energy put into the magnet is ONLY used to re-align the groups of atoms such that their field domains are in a parallel plane.

These are two entirely different values, and one has nothing to do with the other.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Real World Example::

Magnetic Material (X): non-magnetized, and of specific mass
              We can utilize various methods of magnetization, using electrical energy, each having different results, but take the example of the most efficient method, and mark down the "energy" used to magnetize the material.

Next, take this newly created "magnet", and place in its' field (not in physical contact) an exactly identical piece of non-magnetized material.
     Over time, this other piece will become magnetized, and measuring the field of both pieces, you find that the field strength of the original material to be close to as it were when you first magnetized it.
The second piece, however, will have its' own field, of similar magnitude.

This form of magnetic induction does not require the same amount of "energy" to be input into it to magnetize the material.
Nor, is that amount of energy "lost" from the original magnet.

What you propose is like comparing apples and oranges.

The energy contained within a magnet comes from atomic interactions of the mass.
  NOT from the energy we put into the material to magnetize it.

Title: Re: Thin Magnetic Ramp experiment
Post by: MarkE on March 29, 2015, 07:06:09 PM
That is total B.S.

The energy we put into a magnetic material to "magnetize" it, is not equal to the Energy contained in the magnetic system.
The energy consumed magnetizing a magnet: soft or hard always exceeds the energy that can be recovered from the magnet.  This energy is different from the energy that we can convey by using magnet which over time can be many orders of magnitude greater than the the magnetization energy.
Quote
The actual amount of energy is E = mc^2, times the % of atoms parallel to the cumulative field domain.
  times another atomic factor that pertains to the electrons and their orbits that varies from atom/molecule.
The energy that a magnet gains going from a demagnetized to magnetized state does have a mass equivalence.  But the mass equivalence does not drive the energy that it takes to magnetize the magnet, nor does it drive the energy that could ever be recovered by demagnetizing the magnet.
Quote

The energy put into the magnet is ONLY used to re-align the groups of atoms such that their field domains are in a parallel plane.
And once magnetized, the difference between the ordered and unordered states is the potential energy stored in the magnet.
Quote

These are two entirely different values, and one has nothing to do with the other.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Real World Example::

Magnetic Material (X): non-magnetized, and of specific mass
              We can utilize various methods of magnetization, using electrical energy, each having different results, but take the example of the most efficient method, and mark down the "energy" used to magnetize the material.

Next, take this newly created "magnet", and place in its' field (not in physical contact) an exactly identical piece of non-magnetized material.
     Over time, this other piece will become magnetized, and measuring the field of both pieces, you find that the field strength of the original material to be close to as it were when you first magnetized it.
The second piece, however, will have its' own field, of similar magnitude.
Try that with both pieces cryogenically cooled and see what happens.  Does that tell you something?
Quote

This form of magnetic induction does not require the same amount of "energy" to be input into it to magnetize the material.
Nor, is that amount of energy "lost" from the original magnet.
Indeed.  But it does not mean that energy was not expended.  Again:  try that in a cryogenically cooled environment and compare the results.
Quote

What you propose is like comparing apples and oranges.

The energy contained within a magnet comes from atomic interactions of the mass.
  NOT from the energy we put into the material to magnetize it.
Reference?
Title: Re: Thin Magnetic Ramp experiment
Post by: Floor on March 29, 2015, 08:12:08 PM
various quotes from Low-Q

“Alternating a force without using energy sounds simpler than it really is - is what I meant with the first.  You must think more simple, or more basic - is what I meant with the second.”

"you must think more simple, or more basic"  Yes I see your point.

But I don't  think you meant  more shallow or superficially, did you?

If we are looking for express thinking,  simply don' think or question in the first place.
Just say  "conservation of energy"  and skip the rest,  then move on to the
next "discussion" topic.

You say "one cannot get energy out of a permanent magnet."

Yes I understand that this is the conventional point of view, and I truly understand
the usefulness of taking that point of view.

"Why is this strange? And what's wrong repeating simple physics?"

It is seemed strange to me that you do not understand that what underlies simple physics doesn't
prove that energy is conserved in all situations and conditions.  I see now that perhaps you do understand this.

The idea that energy is conserved is indeed a very useful one.

Repeating simple physics as if they are proofs of things which they are not proofs of
is wrong.

Some here apparently havent reach middle shcool yet, or they dropped out already in the kindergrden,
because some here still don't understand that over unity is impossible.


"Therefor I repeat middle school physics."   

Ok  I see.

"No, but we don't need yo understand the origin of the universe to have sufficient knowledge about present physics."

Let me restate my self,  the CAUSES of the physics that are present now are not simple. (I am not referring to the origin of the universe here)

I hope you will understand, that I prefer to decide for my self as to what is sufficient knowledge
and which or what physics are "present" ?

"In a closed loop however, the distance is repeated. "You have a start point you return to and leave all the time.So the netto distance that has been traveled is zero. For example, the circumference of a wheel does not increase as the wheel spins.  Lucky for us these devices we are trying to make over unity, require the shallowest physics skills to debunk.   :) "

Indeed luckily for you, not so much for me.

Maybe it is, but this far, NASA make their calculations right, and the industries make their calculations right when it comes to
production of rockets, engines, electric motors, and other stuff.

Yea NASA rocks.

"IF over unity was common, it would be impossible to calculate correctly,"

I agree with you very much so.

and unexpected motor or rocket behaviour would occour from nowhere.
I does not matter what we believe. What happend, happend regardless of our opinions.
Are you mad at me because your idea can't work in practice? Blame Mother Nature - not me! ;)
[/quote]

Sorry I was a little testy with you.  Thanks for your post.

            best wishes

                    floor
Title: Re: Thin Magnetic Ramp experiment
Post by: Low-Q on March 29, 2015, 11:48:33 PM
That is total B.S.

The energy we put into a magnetic material to "magnetize" it, is not equal to the Energy contained in the magnetic system.

The actual amount of energy is E = mc^2, times the % of atoms parallel to the cumulative field domain.
  times another atomic factor that pertains to the electrons and their orbits that varies from atom/molecule.

The energy put into the magnet is ONLY used to re-align the groups of atoms such that their field domains are in a parallel plane.

These are two entirely different values, and one has nothing to do with the other.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Real World Example::

Magnetic Material (X): non-magnetized, and of specific mass
              We can utilize various methods of magnetization, using electrical energy, each having different results, but take the example of the most efficient method, and mark down the "energy" used to magnetize the material.

Next, take this newly created "magnet", and place in its' field (not in physical contact) an exactly identical piece of non-magnetized material.
     Over time, this other piece will become magnetized, and measuring the field of both pieces, you find that the field strength of the original material to be close to as it were when you first magnetized it.
The second piece, however, will have its' own field, of similar magnitude.

This form of magnetic induction does not require the same amount of "energy" to be input into it to magnetize the material.
Nor, is that amount of energy "lost" from the original magnet.

What you propose is like comparing apples and oranges.

The energy contained within a magnet comes from atomic interactions of the mass.
  NOT from the energy we put into the material to magnetize it.
Interesting. That was new to me, so I might be wrong on that particular subject.
And thanks for your educational approach :-)


Vidar




Title: Re: Thin Magnetic Ramp experiment
Post by: sm0ky2 on March 30, 2015, 12:58:34 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tG8zRbXQ-mQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tG8zRbXQ-mQ)
Title: Re: Thin Magnetic Ramp experiment
Post by: Pirate88179 on March 30, 2015, 01:07:29 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tG8zRbXQ-mQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tG8zRbXQ-mQ)

He says in the annotation that all you need to do is blow on the ball to get it in the gate...or something to that effect, yet, he rolls the ball as if he were in a mini bowling alley.  I submit that with that much input energy, he could have the ball go even further if there were no magnets there at all.  He is deluding himself.

Bill
Title: Re: Thin Magnetic Ramp experiment
Post by: shylo on March 30, 2015, 12:30:46 PM
Hi Bill, You must have watched a different clip than me. From what I could see he just releases the ball , It doesn't look like he is throwing the ball.
Regardless that type of set-up will never be capable of doing anything usefull. IMO
artv
Title: Re: Thin Magnetic Ramp experiment
Post by: sm0ky2 on March 30, 2015, 01:19:35 PM
He says in the annotation that all you need to do is blow on the ball to get it in the gate...or something to that effect, yet, he rolls the ball as if he were in a mini bowling alley.  I submit that with that much input energy, he could have the ball go even further if there were no magnets there at all.  He is deluding himself.

Bill

TK gives the ball a bit of a nudge, but the ball rolls uphill in this video 3 ramps, and then off the table, well out of the field.
I think his further conclusions deterred him from this line of experimentation, but it does give a decent example of what this thread is attempting to do.
Title: Re: Thin Magnetic Ramp experiment
Post by: Floor on March 30, 2015, 04:43:47 PM
@At all

For the record / information.

1. The device represented in the drawings I first presented, was built. (the ramp is the shorter ramp
version and neither the sphere or cylinders are permanent magnets)
2. The roller constantly accelerates as it traverses the ramp.  (no measurement other than
eye ball observation).
3. The "magnetic current being shorted"  on the bottom side of the ramp, by the steel plates,
greatly reduces any magnetic attraction to the "roller" on that side of the ramp, and appears to,
to some extent  decrease the attraction at the tip of the ramp.  This, combined with the the momentum
of the roller, allows the roller to escape the ramp.
4. Traverse of the ramp by various rollers,  at any angle, including completely vertical can be done,
when using various "lighter weight" rollers.
5. A particular range of  roller sizes, ascended the ramp at 4 deg. max,  while still able to escape the ramp.
6. Escape of the roller was only possible when using a vary limited range of weights for the roller, even
with the ramp at 0 deg. (level).
7. No external energy is being applied by Mr. hand.

I have no doubt that this simple of a device can approach unity nearly, if the ramp were thinner.
This is a simple and reasonable conclusion.  I did not say exceed it.  I have no reason to expect
other wise in the design presented.

Next....

In the present embodiment, the roller is attracted to and transported along the ramp by
(what I will call) a sheer angle of attraction to the magnets (not directly toward a pole).

The roller's escape is like wise at a sheer angle.

What I am trying to develop is a design that makes use of a more or less straight on approach and escape
of the roller to the magnet poles, except, that a final exiting of the roller from the ramp will be 90 deg.
from direct. All momentum will be lost (as momentum) except the rational ?

Yes, while gaining height / energy.  OK?

                                       Good hunting gentle persons
                                       thanks for you time
                                                  floor
Title: Re: Thin Magnetic Ramp experiment
Post by: Pirate88179 on March 31, 2015, 04:04:27 AM
TK gives the ball a bit of a nudge, but the ball rolls uphill in this video 3 ramps, and then off the table, well out of the field.
I think his further conclusions deterred him from this line of experimentation, but it does give a decent example of what this thread is attempting to do.

TK?

I was talking about the guy in the video posted just above that says..."Gotcha" at the end.  That was not TK.  This guy tosses the ball into the gates like he is bowling...I have watched it like 5 times now.

What video of TK are you talking about?

Bill
Title: Re: Thin Magnetic Ramp experiment
Post by: shylo on March 31, 2015, 09:34:17 PM
There must be 2 different videos' The one I watched , The guy just lets go of the ball.
No bowling at all.
artv
Title: Re: Thin Magnetic Ramp experiment
Post by: Pirate88179 on April 01, 2015, 03:39:18 AM
There must be 2 different videos' The one I watched , The guy just lets go of the ball.
No bowling at all.
artv

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tG8zRbXQ-mQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tG8zRbXQ-mQ)

This one right here.  Mr. Hand is inputting a large amount of energy to the ball to get it in the first gate.  He "flicks' it thereby inputting energy that the ball would not have if you "blew" on it.  Even though, blowing on the ball also adds energy, just not as much as his flick.

Perhaps I should have said "playing marbles" (flicking) and not bowling?  There is no way in this video link that he is just "placing" that ball.  Look at it closely.

Also, it was Smokey I believe that said this was TK and not you, so, ignore that part of my earlier post.

Thanks,

Bill
Title: Re: Thin Magnetic Ramp experiment
Post by: Floor on April 01, 2015, 06:07:07 PM
More information on floors experiment.

find the attached PDF file below
Title: Re: Thin Magnetic Ramp experiment
Post by: Floor on April 01, 2015, 09:01:06 PM
@Pirate88179

What and which videos on this topic are you referring to ?

Because there are NO VIDEOS under the topic which I presented, nor are
the videos here of or about the project which this topic is about. 

The only videos, here are of some other kind of magnet ramps (not mine)

Along with what seem to me to be disparaging comments and observations,
that are well off topic, because they are about a differnt ramp setup.

Was this Intentionally done, or would you like to clear that up for me ?

What's up you get stuck as hall monitor today ?
Got your coffee and doughnuts ?
Or what?


                    floor
Title: Re: Thin Magnetic Ramp experiment
Post by: Pirate88179 on April 02, 2015, 04:48:44 AM
@Pirate88179

What and which videos on this topic are you referring to ?

Because there are NO VIDEOS under the topic which I presented, nor are
the videos here of or about the project which this topic is about. 

The only videos, here are of some other kind of magnet ramps (not mine)

Along with what seem to me to be disparaging comments and observations,
that are well off topic, because they are about a differnt ramp setup.

Was this Intentionally done, or would you like to clear that up for me ?

What's up you get stuck as hall monitor today ?
Got your coffee and doughnuts ?
Or what?


                    floor

I was responding to the video link that smokey posted, and others had commented on.  (See the link in my above post)

Yes, I intentionally responded to a video link that smokey posted and folks were discussing on this thread.  Please show me where I posted that this was your video?

That would really clear things up for me.  Oh wait, you can't because I never posted that.

Please try reading my posts prior to attempting to respond to them.  It will make things much easier for you, and everyone else.

Thank you,

Bill
Title: Re: Thin Magnetic Ramp experiment
Post by: Floor on April 02, 2015, 09:02:46 PM
@Pirate88179

Qoute from MarkE on january 31,2015,11:15:36 PM
“When you manage that minor detail of returning the ball to its starting
position without expending external energy, do let us know.”  End Quote

                                             Your responce to MarkE was

Quote from Pirate88179 “Aww come on Mark...we have to count external energy? (Mr. Hand)
That will make it even harder to do then.”  End Quote

                                No videos had been posted at this time.
              I won't ask as to what you wanted to imply with your statement.

                                  Below are your comments on the videos
                                  that were posted
                 ( Not my device, although it would easily appear to be
                 so for any one that just came into the topic)
.....................................

Quote from Pirate88179  “He says in the annotation that all you need
to do is blow on the ball to get it in the gate...or something to that effect,
yet, he rolls the ball as if he were in a mini bowling alley.  I submit that
with that much input energy, he could have the ball go even further if
there were no magnets there at all.  He is deluding himself. “ End Quote
.....................................

Quote from Pirate88179
“TK?

I was talking about the guy in the video posted just above that says..."Gotcha"
at the end.  That was not TK.  This guy tosses the ball into the gates like he is
bowling...I have watched it like 5 times now.

What video of TK are you talking about? “ End Quote
.....................................

Quote from Pirate88179
“This one right here. Mr. Hand is inputting a large amount of
energy to the ball to get it in the first gate. He "flicks' it thereby
inputting energy that the ball would not have if you "blew" on it.
Even though, blowing on the ball also adds energy, just not as much as his flick.

Perhaps I should have said "playing marbles" (flicking) and not bowling?
There is no way in this video link that he is just "placing" that ball.  Look at it closely.

Also, it was Smokey I believe that said this was TK and not you,
so, ignore that part of my earlier post. “ End Quote
...................................

Thank you for clearing that up
                    floor
Title: Re: Thin Magnetic Ramp experiment
Post by: shylo on April 02, 2015, 11:17:07 PM
My eyes must be worse than what I thought.
All I see in the video is, the person placing the ball and releasing it.
I see no flick , no toss , just placement and release.
It doesn't mean that the track is not running down hill, causing run.
artv
Title: Re: Thin Magnetic Ramp experiment
Post by: Pirate88179 on April 03, 2015, 01:46:25 AM
@Pirate88179

Qoute from MarkE on january 31,2015,11:15:36 PM
“When you manage that minor detail of returning the ball to its starting
position without expending external energy, do let us know.”  End Quote

                                             Your responce to MarkE was

Quote from Pirate88179 “Aww come on Mark...we have to count external energy? (Mr. Hand)
That will make it even harder to do then.”  End Quote

                                No videos had been posted at this time.
              I won't ask as to what you wanted to imply with your statement.

                                  Below are your comments on the videos
                                  that were posted
                 ( Not my device, although it would easily appear to be
                 so for any one that just came into the topic)
.....................................

Quote from Pirate88179  “He says in the annotation that all you need
to do is blow on the ball to get it in the gate...or something to that effect,
yet, he rolls the ball as if he were in a mini bowling alley.  I submit that
with that much input energy, he could have the ball go even further if
there were no magnets there at all.  He is deluding himself. “ End Quote
.....................................

Quote from Pirate88179
“TK?

I was talking about the guy in the video posted just above that says..."Gotcha"
at the end.  That was not TK.  This guy tosses the ball into the gates like he is
bowling...I have watched it like 5 times now.

What video of TK are you talking about? “ End Quote
.....................................

Quote from Pirate88179
“This one right here. Mr. Hand is inputting a large amount of
energy to the ball to get it in the first gate. He "flicks' it thereby
inputting energy that the ball would not have if you "blew" on it.
Even though, blowing on the ball also adds energy, just not as much as his flick.

Perhaps I should have said "playing marbles" (flicking) and not bowling?
There is no way in this video link that he is just "placing" that ball.  Look at it closely.

Also, it was Smokey I believe that said this was TK and not you,
so, ignore that part of my earlier post. “ End Quote
...................................

Thank you for clearing that up
                    floor

Thanks for saving me from copying and pasting all of that.

Now, please point out where I say that the video smokey posted a link to is a video of your device?

Thanks for clearing this up.

Bill
Title: Re: Thin Magnetic Ramp experiment
Post by: Floor on April 03, 2015, 05:18:18 PM
@Pirate88179

All I  have been asking for is the courtesy of you stating
that the devices / demonstrations  in the videos (which you
have taken the time to disparaged with your comments, quoted above)
are not of the device I have presented.  This, for my benefit,  in that other readers
coming into the topic wont be so likely to think the topic is of those
s.m.o.t.s in the videos.

I think it is clear at this point, that there are in fact no videos of the device I
am presenting here in this topic, but only drawings and texts.

@ other readers

Re-presented below are the materials of the topic.

Mag Ramp for the record.pdf  (An over view of the idea )
Mag Ramp Shear.pdf  (additional and general info.)
Mag Ramp 7.pdf (specifics as drawings etc.-- nothing has been added )
Notes Mag Ramp 7.pdf
Next Ramp.pdf

                              cheers
                                    floor
Title: Re: Thin Magnetic Ramp experiment
Post by: Floor on April 03, 2015, 05:20:13 PM
Last 2 files
Title: Re: Thin Magnetic Ramp experiment
Post by: shylo on April 04, 2015, 02:35:40 AM
Hi Floor , I think shear uses just as much as pulling them directly apart.
Shear just spreads it out.
The line is where ,does gravity become stronger than magnetism?
artv
Title: Re: Thin Magnetic Ramp experiment
Post by: Floor on April 04, 2015, 08:45:27 PM
Hi Arty

                        just as you say
2 units of force F times 3 units of distance D
                           is equal to
1 unit of force F times 6 units of distance D.
                        just spread out

Convention says that one way or another, the kinetic energy
gained during attraction will balance with the force needed to escape.
                  (not  counting the losses to friction or other losses)

This convention also implys that the work to shear two magnet apart is
always equal to the work needed to pull them directly apart (N to S).

I am going to measure for differences between these two interactions (above),
under some specific sets of conditions in the next few days (hopefully).

Other experiments I have conducted show that they (above) are not
always be equal, at least not under all conditions or in all circumstances. 

I have found that under at least one set of conditions.....

The work done in pushing two magnets together in opposition to their
magnetic  repulsion is less than the work done by their repulsion, 
when a certain change in the magnets' orientations to each other,
(AT THE RIGHT POINT) in that interaction is the result of that repulsion. 

                    (as you have said “the line is where”)

The DIFFERENCE between this work in and work out is greater than, the work
required to bring the magnets back to their starting orientations. 
20 % greater.

                           so
                               lets keep on rockn it !
                                                        floor
Title: Re: Thin Magnetic Ramp experiment
Post by: shylo on April 06, 2015, 06:09:25 AM
How did you come up with that 20 percent?
artv
Title: Re: Thin Magnetic Ramp experiment
Post by: Floor on April 06, 2015, 10:55:37 PM
Hi  Arty

Well I'll tell you,
check your PMs ( Personal Messages)

                    cheers
                     floor
Title: Re: Thin Magnetic Ramp experiment
Post by: ekimtoor1 on April 07, 2015, 12:18:08 AM
Hey there!

How would things behave if the sphere was gadolinium?
Title: Re: Thin Magnetic Ramp experiment
Post by: Floor on April 07, 2015, 01:37:47 AM
@ekimtoor1

I don't know ?
Title: Re: Thin Magnetic Ramp experiment
Post by: Floor on April 07, 2015, 03:10:05 AM
@ All readers

Quote from my self (floor)

"I have found that under at least one set of conditions.....

The work done in pushing two magnets together in opposition to their
magnetic  repulsion is less than the work done by their repulsion,
when a certain change in the magnets' orientations to each other,
(AT THE RIGHT POINT) in that interaction is the result of that repulsion.

                    (as you have said “the line is where”)

The DIFFERENCE between this work in and work out was greater than, the work
required to bring the magnets back to their starting orientations.
20 % greater.  "  End Quote

......................    SELF CORRECTION   ...............................

The DIFFERENCE between this work in and work out was was 34.6 % of the input.
This difference was greater than, the work required to bring the magnets back to their starting orientations. The total "gain" in work after subtracting the work to bring the magnets back to their starting orientations was 19.131 % of the initial work input, or 14.54% of the work output.

                   cheers
Title: Re: Thin Magnetic Ramp experiment
Post by: ekimtoor1 on April 07, 2015, 01:52:15 PM
Hey Floor, if the problem is as usual, overcoming the sticky point, a gadolinium sphere may help.  There is some discussion in other threads about gadolinium, it's room temperature curie point (68 degrees F), it's ability to rapidly cycle it's curie point within a range of less than 1 degree, and most importantly that it warms up as it enters a magnetic field and cools as it exits.

A smot using a gadolinium sphere would be able to return to it's starting position because as it approaches the magnetic field it warms just past it's curie point, loses it's ferromagnetism, drops down the incline and returns for another run.  Gadolinium has a built in "Mr. Hand".

You would need to control the ambient temperature the device is operating within, that's the hitch, but it's also where the energy is coming from.
Title: Re: Thin Magnetic Ramp experiment
Post by: Floor on April 07, 2015, 04:57:31 PM
@Ekimtoor1

Thanks that sounds like an interesting approach, I'll keep looking in on that other topic.
I looked up the susceptibility of gadolinium, yesterday
But I'm looking at a different aspect of the mag. interactions at this point.

    all so .. just out of curiosity, is Ekimtoor your name or does it stand for some thing ?

                        cheers
Title: Re: Thin Magnetic Ramp experiment
Post by: ekimtoor1 on April 07, 2015, 05:00:44 PM
It's my name backwards.  I started using it years ago because it is never taken.
Title: Re: Thin Magnetic Ramp experiment
Post by: Floor on July 09, 2016, 06:09:38 AM
Here is a link to a video of this experiment. 

http://www.dailymotion.com/us/relevance/universal/search/magnetescapesuphill/1

This is the ONLY video of this experiment. The previously posted video links on this
topic are just a nasty bit of misdirection from other posters.

             Good hunting
                           floor
Title: Re: Thin Magnetic Ramp experiment
Post by: Floor on February 23, 2022, 03:33:32 AM
The steel ball escapes from the ramp only because, at the end of its run
it falls below the height of the start of the ramp.