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Author Topic: Minato Motor Modification  (Read 27918 times)

Offline juspot82

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Minato Motor Modification
« on: September 25, 2006, 07:29:15 PM »
I'm new here and this is my first post so please don't flame me.

I've started reading up on magnet motors and found the Minato motor to be quite interesting. I think i've read somewhere on the boards that it's similar to another design, but can't remember who's. Anyway, I had a thought to eleminate the need for the electro-magnet "kicker" to get the rotation over unity.

Place 2 of the engines side by side and connect the rotors with something like a bicycle chain or pully system. Have the motors timed so that when motor 1's rotor is at unity position(when the electro-magnet kicks), motor 2 is just starting or part way thru it's cycle. Since the 2 rotors are connected the momentum rotor 2 will carry rotor 1 past unity and then vice versa for rotor 2's cycle.

Alternatively it could be done on the same shaft with the 2nd motor below or upsidedown compared to the first. Just spaced far enough away that there isn't any flux between the two motors magnet arrays. This would probably be a better setup since there would be no need for gears/chains and less loss due to friction.

I don't have the resources or space to attempt a protoype of this setup so I figured I would put it out there for the "experts" to hash out.

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Minato Motor Modification
« on: September 25, 2006, 07:29:15 PM »

Offline Dingus Mungus

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Re: Minato Motor Modification
« Reply #1 on: September 25, 2006, 09:10:39 PM »
You should create a diagram or drawing to better detail the wheels timing differences...

Offline tropes

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Re: Minato Motor Modification
« Reply #2 on: September 25, 2006, 10:20:14 PM »
Juspot
I have tried as many as 3 rotors on a common shaft and they together act as one and find a point of equilibrium.
The furthest rotation was about 340 degees with the configuration at http://theowlnest.com/kickbypage.html
Keep thinking
Tropes

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Re: Minato Motor Modification
« Reply #2 on: September 25, 2006, 10:20:14 PM »
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Offline juspot82

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Re: Minato Motor Modification
« Reply #3 on: September 27, 2006, 11:22:16 PM »
Ok....what about instead of the electromagnet kicker you use one of the following:

1. Instead of a balanced wheel make it heavier near the first magnet on the wheel where the lock up occurs. Since the wheel stops due to the repulsive force of the first magnet coming back around to the starting position. If the wheel is off balance just enough, then the rotational force should be enough to carry it into another rotation. The shaft would require extra bracing and the bearings would probably wear out faster, but it could produce over unity.

2. If a weighted flywheel approach doesn't do it then what about a single set of attacting magnets. The lock up is cause by the repulsive force being too great to overcome. What if you add a rotor onto the shaft positioned above the wheel at the lockup point with an equal attraction force to a stationary magnet. That should create a "dead zone" where the repulsive force on the wheel equals the attractive force on the rotor and allow conservation of momentum on the wheel to continue the spin. By dead zone, I don't mean a way to eliminate the flux, just equalize it in both directions. Once the 2nd magnet on the wheel passes the lock up point then the repulsive force should be great enough to cause another rotation. If needed a stronger set of magnets can be used for the rotor.

Offline Dingus Mungus

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Re: Minato Motor Modification
« Reply #4 on: September 27, 2006, 11:40:06 PM »
We have a quite similar discusion going on here:
http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,1535.0.html

Including a design that has no cog point...
All but one of the designs are based on Minato's wheel design, the last design is based on TOMI track technology.

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Re: Minato Motor Modification
« Reply #4 on: September 27, 2006, 11:40:06 PM »
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Offline Dingus Mungus

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Re: Minato Motor Modification
« Reply #5 on: September 27, 2006, 11:50:03 PM »
Ok....what about instead of the electromagnet kicker you use one of the following:

1. Instead of a balanced wheel make it heavier near the first magnet on the wheel where the lock up occurs. Since the wheel stops due to the repulsive force of the first magnet coming back around to the starting position. If the wheel is off balance just enough, then the rotational force should be enough to carry it into another rotation. The shaft would require extra bracing and the bearings would probably wear out faster, but it could produce over unity.

2. If a weighted flywheel approach doesn't do it then what about a single set of attacting magnets. The lock up is cause by the repulsive force being too great to overcome. What if you add a rotor onto the shaft positioned above the wheel at the lockup point with an equal attraction force to a stationary magnet. That should create a "dead zone" where the repulsive force on the wheel equals the attractive force on the rotor and allow conservation of momentum on the wheel to continue the spin. By dead zone, I don't mean a way to eliminate the flux, just equalize it in both directions. Once the 2nd magnet on the wheel passes the lock up point then the repulsive force should be great enough to cause another rotation. If needed a stronger set of magnets can be used for the rotor.

I have though about both of these ideas...

1) If the weight is combined with gravity to pass the cog point then the device must then lift the weight against gravity to reset it, which is a loss of power. If the wheel had enough monentum to lift the weight it would also have enough monentum to pass the cog point.

2) You would just lose your cog point and gain a sticky point, both are equal in their ability to create points of equalibrium.

Offline juspot82

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Re: Minato Motor Modification
« Reply #6 on: September 27, 2006, 11:54:15 PM »
I have though about both of these ideas...

1) If the weight is combined with gravity to pass the cog point then the device must then lift the weight against gravity to reset it, which is a loss of power. If the wheel had enough monentum to lift the weight it would also have enough monentum to pass the cog point.

2) You would just lose your cog point and gain a sticky point, both are equal in their ability to create points of equalibrium.

1) I'm not talking about a gravity assist. Just a slightly off balance horizontal wheel.

2) The cog point is on top of or below the sticky point depending on how you build it. They should cancel eachother out and allow the momentum of the wheel to finish the job.

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Re: Minato Motor Modification
« Reply #6 on: September 27, 2006, 11:54:15 PM »
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Offline Dingus Mungus

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Re: Minato Motor Modification
« Reply #7 on: September 28, 2006, 12:04:06 AM »
I have though about both of these ideas...

1) If the weight is combined with gravity to pass the cog point then the device must then lift the weight against gravity to reset it, which is a loss of power. If the wheel had enough monentum to lift the weight it would also have enough monentum to pass the cog point.

2) You would just lose your cog point and gain a sticky point, both are equal in their ability to create points of equalibrium.

1) I'm not talking about a gravity assist. Just a slightly off balance horizontal wheel.

2) The cog point is on top of or below the sticky point depending on how you build it. They should cancel eachother out and allow the momentum of the wheel to finish the job.

1) off balance (more mass on one side) on a horizontal or vertical wheel?

2) The next stator magnet would then become the cog point.

Offline juspot82

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Re: Minato Motor Modification
« Reply #8 on: September 28, 2006, 12:29:07 AM »
1) Horizontal wheel.....it would have a lope to it similar to a big block engine with a performance cam. As long as the ring of magnets lopes the same ammount you should be in good shape. Only downside is the added wear and tear of having the system unbalanced.

2) Adding a second attracting magnet should do the trick. Place them on a "V" shaped rotor almost side by side like the wheel magnets....or "Y" shape if you want to counter balance it with a dead weight on the end of the Y. Once the second attracting magnet passes the sticky point then the repulsive forces in the positive direction should outweigh the negative repulsion and attraction forces. It takes the 3rd wheel magnet passing the cog point to complete the change over for the 2 attracting magnets to be out of range and prevent negative feedback. But from what I can see, until the 3rd magnet passes all repulsive/attractive forces should be equal and allow momentum to take over.

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Re: Minato Motor Modification
« Reply #8 on: September 28, 2006, 12:29:07 AM »
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Offline Dingus Mungus

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Re: Minato Motor Modification
« Reply #9 on: September 28, 2006, 01:29:10 AM »
1) Horizontal wheel.....it would have a lope to it similar to a big block engine with a performance cam. As long as the ring of magnets lopes the same ammount you should be in good shape. Only downside is the added wear and tear of having the system unbalanced.

2) Adding a second attracting magnet should do the trick. Place them on a "V" shaped rotor almost side by side like the wheel magnets....or "Y" shape if you want to counter balance it with a dead weight on the end of the Y. Once the second attracting magnet passes the sticky point then the repulsive forces in the positive direction should outweigh the negative repulsion and attraction forces. It takes the 3rd wheel magnet passing the cog point to complete the change over for the 2 attracting magnets to be out of range and prevent negative feedback. But from what I can see, until the 3rd magnet passes all repulsive/attractive forces should be equal and allow momentum to take over.

1) I dont understand what you mean by "lope"  ???
http://www.answers.com/lope&r=67
Do you mean unbalanced with mass or flux density?
(mass unbalance on a horizontal wheel only creates vibration and loss)
(spiral magentic wheels are unbalanced flux by design)

2) If the perpose of each attracted magnet pair is to "create a dead zone" (your words), and you only need to add "dead zone"s to the first two stators, then you would be able to just remove the first two stator magnet sets (atractive and repulsive) and it should still function without the magnetic "dead zones" right?

I'm not trying to knock your ideas but I've been studying magnetic motors/PMM's for many years, and I'm simply passing on things I have observed already. Maybe if you created some rigid models of your ideas in FEMM/Paint/flash to test/show the ideas in a more complete thought. At this point though you've modified your original concept 2 or more times and it seems more like grasping at straws then conveying acurate information... no offense.
 
http://femm.foster-miller.net/
http://isohunt.com/torrents/flash?ihs1=5&iho1=d&iht=5

Offline tropes

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Re: Minato Motor Modification
« Reply #10 on: September 28, 2006, 02:36:49 AM »
Juspot
Your idea of an attracting force to overcome the "stick spot" is one that has merit. Check out the Bowman file at http://www.fdp.nu/bowman/default.asp. The Bowman wheel used an "actuator" and a "helper magnet". I think this is a necessary part of any successful PMM.
Tropes

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Re: Minato Motor Modification
« Reply #10 on: September 28, 2006, 02:36:49 AM »
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Offline Dingus Mungus

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Re: Minato Motor Modification
« Reply #11 on: September 28, 2006, 03:50:57 AM »
Juspot
Your idea of an attracting force to overcome the "stick spot" is one that has merit. Check out the Bowman file at http://www.fdp.nu/bowman/default.asp. The Bowman wheel used an "actuator" and a "helper magnet". I think this is a necessary part of any successful PMM.
Tropes

http://www.fdp.nu/bowman/follow-up.asp?URL=follow-up.asp


Offline tropes

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Re: Minato Motor Modification
« Reply #12 on: September 28, 2006, 06:38:49 AM »
The replication of Bowman's motor was not successful but there is knowledge to be gained from both success and failure.
Tropes

Offline Dingus Mungus

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Re: Minato Motor Modification
« Reply #13 on: September 28, 2006, 02:42:10 PM »
The replication of Bowman's motor was not successful but there is knowledge to be gained from both success and failure.
Tropes

My point was that the 'helper magnet' alligns with the plantary gears cog points and creates a "dead zone", the result being just a modified cog point created between the original cog points and the next stators "dead zone". In addition to this point, it has no relivency to Minatos work, it was just conjecture. Repeling magnetics are the only force harnessed in Minatos design, and I believe that is a quality that time will reveal as being the key...

Offline tropes

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Re: Minato Motor Modification
« Reply #14 on: September 28, 2006, 03:12:41 PM »
If you study the eary Minato video you will see that he used a hand-held magnet (actuator) to rotate the wheel.
Tropes

 

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