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Author Topic: Open Systems  (Read 107393 times)

Offline Pirate88179

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Re: Open Systems
« Reply #60 on: January 31, 2015, 06:26:47 AM »
Mark:

Good to see that you are back and in good health.

Bill

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Re: Open Systems
« Reply #60 on: January 31, 2015, 06:26:47 AM »

Offline MarkE

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Re: Open Systems
« Reply #61 on: January 31, 2015, 06:33:56 AM »
Mark:

Good to see that you are back and in good health.

Bill
Bill thanks. I was out of town.  A friend of mine who was at the same event got food poisoning Tuesday.  He seemed fine at his presentation on Wednesday.

Offline tinman

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Re: Open Systems
« Reply #62 on: January 31, 2015, 07:51:21 AM »
             
Quote
Of course not, but your invalid claims are tantamount to being able to both create and destroy energy:  Simply change the ambient pressure.  And that is of course absurd.
Lol,this is funny. Please show where the energy was created and destroyed.
Quote
Energy is completely conserved all the way through.  There is no surplus for free work from operating the piston
Incorrect,as the energy has already been accounted for before the valve opens to opperate the piston in the ram.

Quote
That change requires less energy into a lower pressure atmosphere than into a higher pressure atmosphere.
Indeed when we are talking gas production. But in a higher pressure atmosphere where less gas is being produced per joule of energy,more heat is produced by the circuit as a whole,and once again,energy is conserved.

Quote
That difference leaves more or less energy to break chemical bonds electrolyzing the water.  Higher pressure atmosphere => lower number of molecules of H2 and O2 evolved.  If you don't believe me then build your apparatus and attempt to wow the world.
Unlike you infer,i have never disagreed with this. But when this is true,it is also true that the heat energy disipated by the circuit as a whole,is equal to the difference in energy supplied by the battery,and energy stored within the hydroxy gas.Once again,energy is conserved.

Quote
That phase change results in stored energy in latent heat of vaporization and the pressure * volume product.
No,a lot of the heat is a result or resistive losses,and chemical reactions within the battery itself.
These are things you should know mark :o I think maybe it is you who may need some bench time here to wow the world. Take an AC current and pass that through an Elite-no gas production,but heat is produced via the resistance within the Elite. To say,Quote: The enrgy from the battery goes into:  chemical bond splitting--is incorrect,as some of the energy is converted to heat by means i have stated above.

Quote
When you remove some of that work from the system by way of the moving piston, it has left the building, Elvis is on stage no more and the amount of energy that you can recover from what remains is now diminished.
Incorrect.
1-the work has already been done before the pneumatic cylinder comes into opperation.
2-Elvis has not left the building,the building just got bigger,and no YOU cant find Elvis,so you assume he is missing.

Quote
The accounts remain balanced, and your scheme has failed to produce the excess energy you claim.
Nope-my account has grown,and im afraid the only failure is on your behalf Mark.

.
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You are simply and utterly wrong.  Take any volume of gas, and reduce the pressure, IE remove gas, and the remaining energy in the volume has been reduced:

Im begining to think that you make things up as you go Mark-->whats with that?
Please show where we have removed any gas when the piston is opperated?.
NO gas is removed from the system at the point in time when the piston has reached the end of it's travel-->how ever did you come up with-->the volume is reduced when the pressure is reduced.
The pressure is reduced because the storage medium just became larger-->the volume of gas remains the same.

Quote
Ideal Gas Law, Charles Law, and Boyle's Law all apply.Yes energy is conserved and no surplus becomes available because of the extra pressure and no extra can be extracted by operating the cylinder.  Only by applying funny accounting do you challenge those facts.

Please show us all where these laws state that storing 2ltr's of gas at 100psi has less energy than 2ltr's of gas stored at 10psi. The funny accounting seems to be coming from your way Mark-not mine.

Quote
I am not joining you on your stroll down yours.Actually do the math or do the experiment and maybe you will see past your false assumptions.Now you're thinking.
Indeed i am thinking.
Im thinking that you are not quite as smart as we were all led to believe,or you have some motive for steering others astray with your faulse accusations.

Quote
And for those exact reasons your proposed scheme fails.Oops, now you've jumped right on your garden path again.Obviously your hand calculator is not working for you.  Neither is basic logic.
My logic is sound,but i feel as though it is you that has ran out of fingers Mark.Have you actually read some of the things you have said--even in this post alone.
Lets recap. The below quote was from you

Quote:
Quote
There you go with the screwy accounting again.  The enrgy from the battery goes into:  chemical bond splitting, and the phase change.
No-some energy is transformed into heat energy via way of resistive heating.There is definitely some screwy accounting going on,but it is not on my behalf.

Quote:
Quote
You are simply and utterly wrong.  Take any volume of gas, and reduce the pressure, IE remove gas
No where is gas removed in the system when the piston has reached it's maximum travel.

Quote
maybe you will see past your false assumptions
There is definitely some faulse assumptions going on here,but there not mine.

Those here can look back over this post Mark,and see some of the incorrect and faulse statements you have made--remember that. I must say that this isnt looking good for you ATM.

Quote
I am not joining you on your stroll down yours.
This is probably for the best,as you dont seem to be able to look at everything that is happening within the system. Missing the heat output via way of resistive heating is something that is common knowledge. There is also the leading of others up the garden path on your behalf with your faulse statements,like-Take any volume of gas, and reduce the pressure, IE remove gas.Like i said,no where is gas removed from the system when the pressure is dropped due to the piston in the ram moving to the opposite end of the cylinder.The storage medium has just became larger,but the volume of gas remains-along with its retained energy.

As much as i dont like to say it Mark,but it seems as though your primary goal here is to shut down peoples devices and claims without fully understanding as to what is actually happening throughout the system as a whole.You also assume that i have not done the said and commonly asked for test-this is also another faulse assumption on your behalf.

I think maybe it's time you spent some time on the bench,and catch up a little here with the described setup.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Open Systems
« Reply #62 on: January 31, 2015, 07:51:21 AM »
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Offline MarkE

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Re: Open Systems
« Reply #63 on: January 31, 2015, 08:28:02 AM »
Lol,this is funny. Please show where the energy was created and destroyed.
LOL Dude, you are the one who claims that by adding a pneumatic ram and letting pressure build up that you can get work for free.  The corollary is that if the pressure were reduced below 1 ATM that you would be stuck destroying energy.  If you have given up on your preposterous claims then just say so. 

Offline profitis

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Re: Open Systems
« Reply #64 on: January 31, 2015, 09:34:56 AM »
No no no mark E.the environmental heat flow is in contradiction to our gas compression/decompression cycle.it is a gain not a loss

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Re: Open Systems
« Reply #64 on: January 31, 2015, 09:34:56 AM »
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Offline tinman

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Re: Open Systems
« Reply #65 on: January 31, 2015, 11:32:28 AM »
   If you have given up on your preposterous claims then just say so.
I have not given up on anything Mark-->but i feel as though you should maybe try again with your calculations of the energy supplied by the battery and the heat energy conversion(and it's reasons for being produced)being disipated within the circuit. This time,try to include resistive heating along with your phase change heating,and also add to that the heat from the chemical reactions taking place within the battery it self,as the battery will indeed produce heat.

Quote
The corollary is that if the pressure were reduced below 1 ATM that you would be stuck destroying energy.

Now is your chance at redemption Mark-->please show us all where the pressure is reduced below 1 ATM within my setup. This is one of those unjustified and incorrect quotes that you often make throughout threads-->this is what people are talking about when they say you are misinterpreting there statements,and adding faulse claims-->things they never said.

Quote
LOL Dude, you are the one who claims that by adding a pneumatic ram and letting pressure build up that you can get work for free.
That is the beauty of useing HHO,regardless of wether the pressure is reduced when increasing the size of the storage medium,or is maintained at current pressure with current size storage tank,the energy stored in that HHO gas dose not change.So if we have say a 20 ltr tank,and that is full of HHO with a gage pressure of say 100psi-we would have X amount of energy stored within that HHO gas. Now,if we could expand the size of the tank (without losing any of the stored gas) to say a 30 ltr capacity,our gas pressure would drop,but we would still have the same amount of gas,and the same amount of energy stored within that gas. Feel free to jump on google,and try and find something that can disprove this.

Once you have learned how to account and calculate for all energies,and what gives rise to those energies within my system,please feel free to come back and have another look. But for the time being,it is clear that you are set in your way's,and the stated laws must remain-regardless of wether or not they do. You are a man with a closed mind,and this has become very transparant in  this and other threads. Your failure to account for simple things like resistive heating and stored energies in a given amount of gas under different pressures is a sign that your eyes are wide shut-->the laws of physics must stand no matter what-is the attitude you seem to have. This is simply not acceptable in an enviroment such as this forum.

How about you do the testing Mark,and prove i am wrong,as we went by the very laws you praise,and now that i show an extra energy output which is not additive to the supplied energy to the system,you make a back peddle,and start reaching for the stars. The beauty of these forums is that people can go back and read all that was writen. They can go back and see that you agreed with each step(including the storage of gas under pressure (which is on the magnet myths and misconceptions thread),until i showed the extra energy output. Then you went serching for explanations(although incorrect ones)that could explain away what i have shown. But then you started to make mistakes in your calculation,and then started the misdirection's by way of stateing things that are not apparent in my setup-eg,we reduce the amount of gas because we reduced the pressure in the storage tank,and thus reduce the stored energy within that gas. But as we know,we never reduced the amount of gas at all,we simply increased the size of the storage tank.


Offline tinman

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Re: Open Systems
« Reply #66 on: January 31, 2015, 11:35:04 AM »
No no no mark E.the environmental heat flow is in contradiction to our gas compression/decompression cycle.it is a gain not a loss
These are just some of the things Mark has missed profitis. I suspect there may have been a few other concepts that have been passed on by because of misdirection given in there opperation.

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Re: Open Systems
« Reply #66 on: January 31, 2015, 11:35:04 AM »
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Offline pomodoro

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Re: Open Systems
« Reply #67 on: January 31, 2015, 01:09:42 PM »
Start using some engineering calcs guys, talking can only take you so far.  The refrigerator cycle not being able to produce useful work was shown to me that way. I kept thinking that 1kw makes 5kw, then use the 5kw to power the 1kw motor. Even with massive losses it could still work! But alas, it was show that it can't.

Offline profitis

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Re: Open Systems
« Reply #68 on: January 31, 2015, 06:41:52 PM »
Calculations pomodoro: E= RT/nf ln P .whats gona happen to the E if the T goes down a good few kelvin while the p goes up. Whats gona happen if the T goes up while the p comes down.this equasion is clearly fighting with itself in this case.

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Re: Open Systems
« Reply #68 on: January 31, 2015, 06:41:52 PM »
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Offline pomodoro

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Re: Open Systems
« Reply #69 on: February 01, 2015, 01:48:42 AM »
I was referring to the complete electrolysis ,combustion process.

Offline profitis

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Re: Open Systems
« Reply #70 on: February 01, 2015, 03:19:41 AM »
Burning of fuels yes you will lose a lot of heat in the cycle.but the total energy balance remains unaltered : your total in from battery.combustion total out from burning.environment total from phase changes.3 seperate totals.3 seperate entities

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Re: Open Systems
« Reply #70 on: February 01, 2015, 03:19:41 AM »
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Offline pomodoro

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Re: Open Systems
« Reply #71 on: February 01, 2015, 01:26:30 PM »
It seems to me the answer to this puzzle is to forget the electrolysis and answer this question: Does the heater produce same heat when supplied by the gas from the tank bypassing the piston, as it does when supplied by the gas that's done the work in the piston.  I don't know the answer but on the surface it looks like an easy to solve thermo calc. What you reckon chaps?

Offline MarkE

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Re: Open Systems
« Reply #72 on: February 01, 2015, 07:09:01 PM »
It seems to me the answer to this puzzle is to forget the electrolysis and answer this question: Does the heater produce same heat when supplied by the gas from the tank bypassing the piston, as it does when supplied by the gas that's done the work in the piston.  I don't know the answer but on the surface it looks like an easy to solve thermo calc. What you reckon chaps?
This is a pretty simple problem.  If the piston does external work, then as I said:  that work like Elvis has left the building.  Some of the PE in the gas has been sent out of the system in terms of external work and it is no longer available.  When the piston merely compresses a spring, then Profitis' best friend the second law comes to the fore.

Offline profitis

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Re: Open Systems
« Reply #73 on: February 01, 2015, 09:39:26 PM »
Brb

Offline tinman

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Re: Open Systems
« Reply #74 on: February 01, 2015, 10:23:37 PM »
It seems to me the answer to this puzzle is to forget the electrolysis and answer this question: Does the heater produce same heat when supplied by the gas from the tank bypassing the piston, as it does when supplied by the gas that's done the work in the piston.  I don't know the answer but on the surface it looks like an easy to solve thermo calc. What you reckon chaps?
Yes it dose,regardless of what Mark may say. Moving the piston is doing nothing more than enlarging the tank the gas is stored in-->but the amount of gas never changes,thus the energy contained within that gas also never changes-->joules per ltr remains. So regardless of wether the gas go's from the large tank,or via the way of the cylinder first,the same heat energy will be produced by that amount of gas. Mark will give you no reason at all as to how the energy stored within that gas can change just by moving the piston-->because it dosnt change. !ltr of gas is 1ltr of gas regardless of where it must flow to get to the heater. This is why we are useing HHO gas insted of compressed air,as the energy in compressed air is the pressure,where as with HHO,the prssure is a byproduct only-->and it is this byproduct we are gaining our extra energy from.
Mark also states that producing the HHO under pressure requires more energy per mole of gas,and while this is correct,he forgets the fact that more heat energy is produced at the same time-->energy is conserved. So while gas production may go down per joule of energy,heat energy production go's up by the same amount.

Opperating the piston,and gaining energy from this movement comes at no extra cost to the energy input of the system.

 

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