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Author Topic: Open Systems  (Read 107765 times)

Offline ramset

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Re: Open Systems
« Reply #360 on: April 25, 2015, 02:42:03 PM »
TinMan
Very cool Video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xsDXKN4Mosw

of course some don't seem to appreciate your intuition and hard work, Personally
I know that you have many "fans" here that do appreciate your line of thought.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Open Systems
« Reply #360 on: April 25, 2015, 02:42:03 PM »

Offline MarkE

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Re: Open Systems
« Reply #361 on: April 25, 2015, 02:48:32 PM »
TinMan
Very cool Video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xsDXKN4Mosw

of course some don't seem to appreciate your intuition and hard work, Personally
I know that you have many "fans" here that do appreciate your line of thought.
Chet, the trick is to get at the truth.

Offline tinman

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Re: Open Systems
« Reply #362 on: April 25, 2015, 11:08:19 PM »

 

Quote
Isn't your hypothesis that you can perfom more work than energy you input by plumbing your apparatus to the local environment?

As clearly stated in the video,the video was to show effect,not efficiency of the system.

Quote
If that is what you are trying to get to, then the experiment design effort should try and falsify that as directly and simply as possible.

Try and falsify?. How would one do that when it can be seen as clear as day?. That would be like me trying to show that a 12 volt battery really dosnt have 12 volts across it's terminals.

Quote
Changing a variable and noting that the fan speeds only tells us that more power was imparted to the fan blades.  Since that can occur for several reasons, it does not tellwhich of those reasons or combinations of those reasons.

This is why i suggested the mass acceleration test. Would you not agree that to accelerate a mass to a higher speed over a set distance requires more energy ?.
I can remove the nozzel from the venturi,and point that at the fan blade so as it's in the very same position it was when housed in the venturi,and see what the outcome is-->but of course,i have already done this,and can tell you the results are exactly as they are when the nozzel is housed in the venturi.

If you would like to put forth a test setup Mark,i would be more than happy to try it out.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Open Systems
« Reply #362 on: April 25, 2015, 11:08:19 PM »
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Offline tinman

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Re: Open Systems
« Reply #363 on: April 25, 2015, 11:18:16 PM »
This demonstrates nothing other than a more efficient nozzle. 
Since you are not actually measuring the energy potential of the source you can't make any pronouncement at all that an energy gain has occurred.

Quote
Try the same experiment without a venturi but simply vary the nozzle shape and diameter.You'll find exactly the same effect occurring. A nozzle that can generate a higher velocity flow will produce more lift on the fan and hence more output to the generator.

Sure LE.
We can also bore out an engine,put a set of high flow high compression heads on it,and say we now have more HP for nothing-->forgetting the fact that it now consumes more fuel to gain that extra HP.
We can reshape,change diameters of the nozzel to what ever shape you want,and then get the maximum efficiency. If we then take that same nozzel and place it in a venturi setup such as the one i showed,the fan would still spin faster.

Offline LibreEnergia

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Re: Open Systems
« Reply #364 on: April 26, 2015, 01:02:42 AM »
Sure LE.
We can also bore out an engine,put a set of high flow high compression heads on it,and say we now have more HP for nothing-->forgetting the fact that it now consumes more fuel to gain that extra HP.
We can reshape,change diameters of the nozzel to what ever shape you want,and then get the maximum efficiency. If we then take that same nozzel and place it in a venturi setup such as the one i showed,the fan would still spin faster.

The problem here is you are not measuring the 'fuel consumption'. Consider the air hose is supplied by a compressed tank that and the air exits out various shaped nozzles. Obviously the time take to empty the tank would be dependent on the size and design of the nozzle. The amount of 'fuel' would be constant but the total energy generated by would be dependent on runtime and the efficiency of the conversion performed by fan.

Measuring instantaneous power is not sufficient to claim an ENERGY increase.

Also, once you have exhausted the tank you then need to recompress the tank. Did you create enough stored potential to do that.? I can tell you for certain that you never can, no matter how efficient your nozzle is or whether it contains a venturi or not.

None of this of course precludes you from finding and environmentally supplied source of heat and a corresponding environmental sink at a lower temperature and devising a heat engine that operates between those two reservoirs.
                             

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Open Systems
« Reply #364 on: April 26, 2015, 01:02:42 AM »
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Offline MarkE

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Re: Open Systems
« Reply #365 on: April 26, 2015, 01:42:25 AM »
As clearly stated in the video,the video was to show effect,not efficiency of the system.
I am trying to avoid spending a bunch of time on tests that will be difficult to perform properly just to get an intermediate result.  As I explained, if you really want to know what is going on with this set-up beyond the obvious A-B comparison that it imparts more power to the fan, then you've got to measure several variables for each of the three ports which would be a PITA.
Quote

Try and falsify?. How would one do that when it can be seen as clear as day?. That would be like me trying to show that a 12 volt battery really dosnt have 12 volts across it's terminals.
All good experiments are designe to falsify a hypothesis.  That's how the scientific method works:  Come up with a hypothesis.  Design experiments that can disprove the hypothesis.  Conduct those experiments.  And if none of the experiments falsify the hypothesis then the hypothesis is accepted as true.  It is really, really important to understand this process and follow it.
Quote

This is why i suggested the mass acceleration test. Would you not agree that to accelerate a mass to a higher speed over a set distance requires more energy ?.
I can remove the nozzel from the venturi,and point that at the fan blade so as it's in the very same position it was when housed in the venturi,and see what the outcome is-->but of course,i have already done this,and can tell you the results are exactly as they are when the nozzel is housed in the venturi.
At a minimum you want to measure the energy into the tube and energy out of the tube to enough accuracy that you can distinguish between the results with and without the local air feed.  The values are kind of small making this a PITA on a budget.
Quote

If you would like to put forth a test setup Mark,i would be more than happy to try it out.

Offline tinman

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Re: Open Systems
« Reply #366 on: April 27, 2015, 12:29:37 AM »
The problem here is you are not measuring the 'fuel consumption'. Consider the air hose is supplied by a compressed tank that and the air exits out various shaped nozzles. Obviously the time take to empty the tank would be dependent on the size and design of the nozzle. The amount of 'fuel' would be constant but the total energy generated by would be dependent on runtime and the efficiency of the conversion performed by fan.

Measuring instantaneous power is not sufficient to claim an ENERGY increase.

Also, once you have exhausted the tank you then need to recompress the tank. Did you create enough stored potential to do that.? I can tell you for certain that you never can, no matter how efficient your nozzle is or whether it contains a venturi or not.

None of this of course precludes you from finding and environmentally supplied source of heat and a corresponding environmental sink at a lower temperature and devising a heat engine that operates between those two reservoirs.
                             
The thing is LE,we could make what ever shape or size nozzel we like,but as soon as the gas leaves that nozzel it will draw in ambiant gas(air) with it. The venturi device isnt what makes the venturi effect,the venturi device was based around an effect that already exist. The reason for the venturi device is to localise that effect into a small tube so as it can be put to use. In order to see what only the compressed gas can do as far as work go's ,then it must be isolated from the enviroment when leaving the nozzel,so as it cant draw in the ambiant gas that surrounds it.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Open Systems
« Reply #366 on: April 27, 2015, 12:29:37 AM »
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Offline tinman

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Re: Open Systems
« Reply #367 on: April 27, 2015, 01:41:30 AM »
I am trying to avoid spending a bunch of time on tests that will be difficult to perform properly just to get an intermediate result.  As I explained, if you really want to know what is going on with this set-up beyond the obvious A-B comparison that it imparts more power to the fan, then you've got to measure several variables for each of the three ports which would be a PITA.All good experiments are designe to falsify a hypothesis.  That's how the scientific method works:  Come up with a hypothesis.  Design experiments that can disprove the hypothesis.  Conduct those experiments.  And if none of the experiments falsify the hypothesis then the hypothesis is accepted as true.  It is really, really important to understand this process and follow it.At a minimum you want to measure the energy into the tube and energy out of the tube to enough accuracy that you can distinguish between the results with and without the local air feed.  The values are kind of small making this a PITA on a budget.
So we have X amount of kinetic energy from the nozzel,and we have that pesky law-->the conservation of energy. But the fan blades rely on a given amount of force applied to them in order to be able to do usful work. Now,there is no conservation of force law,and that is where we may have a win situation. So it takes X amount of applied force to lift say a 1kg ball 1 meter vertically into the air-which is 9.8 joules of energy. But if we roll that ball up a 45* incline to a hight of 1 meter,we now have to apply less force to raise that ball 1 meter,and the energy required to do so remains the same. With the fan,the blades are that incline,BUT that incline is now moving in the opposite direction to the applied force.

Offline LibreEnergia

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Re: Open Systems
« Reply #368 on: April 27, 2015, 02:56:00 AM »
The thing is LE,we could make what ever shape or size nozzel we like,but as soon as the gas leaves that nozzel it will draw in ambiant gas(air) with it. The venturi device isnt what makes the venturi effect,the venturi device was based around an effect that already exist. The reason for the venturi device is to localise that effect into a small tube so as it can be put to use. In order to see what only the compressed gas can do as far as work go's ,then it must be isolated from the enviroment when leaving the nozzel,so as it cant draw in the ambiant gas that surrounds it.

Ok, for interest sake lets assume you are correct and there there is an increase of energy occurring across the device. Surely  then we should be able to chain these devices together and record an energy increase at each one?

If that occurs then why not chain them in circle ? Then just a small amount of input energy would be quickly transformed into a roaring vortex as one device amplified the output of the previous one.

 I think you know intuitively that would not occur.  If you believe it could then it is probably the simplest way to test your hypothesis. No complex measurements and calculations of temperature and pressure required. No every increasing vortex = no energy increase. Self accelerating vortex = energy increase.

If you can show the latter I'd happily admit 200 years of thermodynamics are wrong.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Open Systems
« Reply #368 on: April 27, 2015, 02:56:00 AM »
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Offline MarkE

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Re: Open Systems
« Reply #369 on: April 27, 2015, 04:09:50 AM »
So we have X amount of kinetic energy from the nozzel,and we have that pesky law-->the conservation of energy. But the fan blades rely on a given amount of force applied to them in order to be able to do usful work. Now,there is no conservation of force law,and that is where we may have a win situation. So it takes X amount of applied force to lift say a 1kg ball 1 meter vertically into the air-which is 9.8 joules of energy. But if we roll that ball up a 45* incline to a hight of 1 meter,we now have to apply less force to raise that ball 1 meter,and the energy required to do so remains the same. With the fan,the blades are that incline,BUT that incline is now moving in the opposite direction to the applied force.
Tinman there are many machines that take advantage of force manipulations:  fan jets, the Dyson "Air Multiplier", etc.  None of those machines generate surplus energy.  They limit the losses for the tasks they do.

Offline MarkE

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Re: Open Systems
« Reply #370 on: April 27, 2015, 04:14:14 AM »
It shows exactly that. More force is exerted on the fan blades when the valve is open,thus more work is being done.
By the fan, which means more energy is being transferred to the fan in one condition than another.  We cannot however conclude from that information that there is any energy (steady power) surplus.
Quote


The power to create the inflow is exactly equal to the power of the out flow with the valve closed->energy can be neither created nor destroyed.
Your accounting is wrong.  Take your handy compressor.  Attach a 1m hose.  Measure the outflow and pressure.  Attach a 10m hose.  Repeat the measurements.  Energy is still conserved.  Account for the observations.
Quote
The rest of the power consumed to create the inflow is disipated as heat. Shall we go back to the tanks Mark?. I can set this up with the 20ltr tank,and show a run from the tank with and without the venturi open. We could put say 40psi into the tank,and wait for the gas temperature to rest at ambiant temperature,then see how long and how high the power output from our little generator go's with the venturi closed off. We could then do the exact same run with the venturi open. Which do you think will be able to do more work?.
You can perform comparative measurements all day long and they are not going to tell you what you want to know.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Open Systems
« Reply #370 on: April 27, 2015, 04:14:14 AM »
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