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Author Topic: Open Systems  (Read 107749 times)

Offline tinman

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Re: Open Systems
« Reply #30 on: January 27, 2015, 07:28:20 AM »
When you've settled in on what you want please draw a sketch.
A sketch will isnt possable while im on the road.
All you have to picture is the complete system (as per diagram posted on first page of this thread) in an insulated room.
We are just confirming that all enervy has been accounted for in the form of heat. Like I said, the secondary system dose not effect the primary system.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Open Systems
« Reply #30 on: January 27, 2015, 07:28:20 AM »

Offline tinman

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Re: Open Systems
« Reply #31 on: January 28, 2015, 12:44:21 AM »
@MarkE
At this point in time-now we have agreed that energy is conserved in the electrolisis system, can you see any way of returning energy back to the battery with out it effecting the output ofthe system at all?.

Offline Farmhand

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Re: Open Systems
« Reply #32 on: January 28, 2015, 01:01:17 AM »
This is from a previous debate on another thread
Now your thinking, the DWFTTW process appeared to the weak minded as a violation of physics because you cannot get more than what is already there. However their error was in the Energy accounting of an open system and a failure to understand what was there and available to use. You are correct and the rules which apply to closed systems do not always apply to open systems because obviously they are not the same thing.
If I put 1w of electric energy into a resistance heater I will always get 1w of heat out but if I put 1w of electrical energy into a heat pump I may get 5w of heat out. A resistance heater is a closed system and a heat pump is an open system...it's that simple. The critics are simply arguing that all systems must remain closed, they are arguing that the simple resistance heater is the only way of doing things which as we know is pure delusion. Why if they had their way we would have to install our wind turbines, heat pumps and solar panels inside dark closed boxes just to satisfy their twisted notion of reality.
AC

A resistive heater is not a closed system. That is obvious because energy leaves the system, if it was closed no energy could enter or leave the system. Very simple.

In reality there is only one closed system which is the entire Universe (meaning everything that is) within the Universe there is no "real" closed systems, however we can consider an almost closed system as a closed system based on input alone and disregard the energy leaving open the system if we want, but what does that achieve.

Any system that allows energy to enter or Leave the system is open by definition.

Anything with an output or an input is an open system. Generally we put energy into a system to get energy out, regardless of the ratios they are all open systems. A closed system is useless because there can be no output by definition, unless your are contained within it that is, then it can be useful to you.

Cheers.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Open Systems
« Reply #32 on: January 28, 2015, 01:01:17 AM »
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Offline profitis

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Re: Open Systems
« Reply #33 on: January 28, 2015, 10:30:52 AM »
Wether a system is open or closed has nothing to do with the propensity toward thermodynamics laws violations.spontaneous concentration of heat is itself banned regardless

Offline tinman

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Re: Open Systems
« Reply #34 on: January 29, 2015, 05:30:09 AM »
Mmm
Mark has seemed to have disappeared.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Open Systems
« Reply #34 on: January 29, 2015, 05:30:09 AM »
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Offline allcanadian

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Re: Open Systems
« Reply #35 on: January 29, 2015, 06:20:02 AM »
@Farmhand
Quote
A resistive heater is not a closed system. That is obvious because energy leaves the system, if it was closed no energy could enter or leave the system. Very simple.


I think you know exactly what I meant and squabbling over semantics is a losing proposition.




@profitis
Thermodynamics is just another way of saying I do not understand modern physics in my opinion. Fundamentally there is no such thing as "heat" as most people understand it. Heat is a measure of the kinetic energy of particles and it also relates to a narrow band of wavelengths within the EM spectrum. Thus Heat is fundamentally an electrodynamic phenomena as most all phenomena are. In my opinion when people quote thermodynamics they are basically saying--- hey look I'm still stuck in the 1900's way of thinking.


In the modern world scientists are converting this kinetic and EM energy directly into electrical energy with nano-conductors and other engineered materials. In fact many people here might accuse these scientists of making a magical perpetual motion machine as it has no moving parts and could be stuck inside a black box...imagine that.


In fact we may even go so far as to say these new engineered materials are equivalent to Maxwell's Demon as imagined by him a very long time ago.


AC

Offline allcanadian

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Re: Open Systems
« Reply #36 on: January 29, 2015, 06:56:09 AM »
Moving forward... I understand almost everyone is completely preoccupied by entropy ie thermodynamics and in a sense we could call this energy source technology. That is we transform energy in a material into heat energy and in many cases apply this heat energy to an archaic and outdated system to produce electrical energy. We basically spew most of the energy into the environment never to return and we call this modern.


However whenever I mention an energy sink technology nobody has a clue what I'm talking about and give me this puzzled look as if they have just seen a unicorn. Energy sink technology?, What do you mean... Energy sink technology. In fact the thought had never even crossed there mind that all that energy radiating away from their source might actually go somewhere.


My first exposure to this concept was when I read Nikola Tesla's lecture "The problem of increasing human energy". http://www.tfcbooks.com/tesla/1900-06-00.htm




Quote
DIAGRAM b. OBTAINING ENERGY FROM THE AMBIENT MEDIUM
But was it not possible to realize a similar condition without necessarily going to a height?  Conceive, for the sake of illustration, [a cylindrical] enclosure T, as illustrated in diagram b, such that energy could not be transferred across it except through a channel or path O, and that, by some means or other, in this enclosure a medium were maintained which would have little energy, and that on the outer side of the same there would be the ordinary ambient medium with much energy.  Under these assumptions the energy would flow through the path O, as indicated by the arrow, and might then be converted on its passage into some other form of energy.  The question was, Could such a condition be attained?  Could we produce artificially such a "sink" for the energy of the ambient medium to flow in?  Suppose that an extremely low temperature could be maintained by some process in a given space; the surrounding medium would then be compelled to give off heat, which could be converted into mechanical or other form of energy, and utilized.  By realizing such a plan, we should be enabled to get at any point of the globe a continuous supply of energy, day and night.  More than this, reasoning in the abstract, it would seem possible to cause a quick circulation of the medium, and thus draw the energy at a very rapid rate.


As is often the case Tesla was light years ahead of his time and you guys can read whatever you like into this lecture. In essence this is what everyone is looking for... An Energy Sink.


AC

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Open Systems
« Reply #36 on: January 29, 2015, 06:56:09 AM »
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Offline Farmhand

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Re: Open Systems
« Reply #37 on: January 29, 2015, 08:59:51 AM »
Haha, I'm not arguing, there is nothing to argue a resistive heater is not a closed system. True or False ?

You over complicate things to try to look clever. When a lizard basks in the sun it is an energy sink. Clearly Free energy for the
lizard. Solar panel is similar.

Thermo electric modules ect. can be energy sinks. You must be talking to very unimaginative people.

EDIT: OK I see Tesla's Quote. disregard the obsolete parts of the following paragraph. My bad.
Care to explain your revolutionary energy sink idea, I know you will never show anything so how about an explanation to explain
the working concept ? Do you mean a "sink" like a heat sink or a "sink" like water flowing down the drainage portion of a kitchen
sink, but an energy flow down the sink rather than the water analogy ?

I think a modern heat pump achieves that end, it sinks energy from the surrounding medium.

I'm not trying to be problematic, I'm always interested in interesting idea's.

There is nothing to win or lose.  Only trying to save some young fella from going to his teacher and claiming a resistive heater is a
closed system.

Show me a truly closed system on a bench, one where no energy can enter or leave the system. Take a picture of it.

..


Offline profitis

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Re: Open Systems
« Reply #38 on: January 29, 2015, 09:18:12 AM »
Sure sure @allcanadian.there's just one problem: kelvin statement and entropy laws are still written in todays textbooks in the same old wording as they were 100yrs ago so I stay with such outdated conceptual visualization for the sake of the kids here who have been brainwashed by it since birth.few people are going to understand phonon and photon resonant up-conversion

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Open Systems
« Reply #38 on: January 29, 2015, 09:18:12 AM »
3D Solar Panels

Offline ramset

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Re: Open Systems
« Reply #39 on: January 29, 2015, 09:30:31 AM »
yes Mark E does seem to have taken a break.....
hope all is well ?






Offline tinman

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Re: Open Systems
« Reply #40 on: January 29, 2015, 02:34:07 PM »
Haha, I'm not arguing, there is nothing to argue a resistive heater is not a closed system. True or False ?

You over complicate things to try to look clever. When a lizard basks in the sun it is an energy sink. Clearly Free energy for the
lizard. Solar panel is similar.

Thermo electric modules ect. can be energy sinks. You must be talking to very unimaginative people.

EDIT: OK I see Tesla's Quote. disregard the obsolete parts of the following paragraph. My bad.
Care to explain your revolutionary energy sink idea, I know you will never show anything so how about an explanation to explain
the working concept ? Do you mean a "sink" like a heat sink or a "sink" like water flowing down the drainage portion of a kitchen
sink, but an energy flow down the sink rather than the water analogy ?

I think a modern heat pump achieves that end, it sinks energy from the surrounding medium.

I'm not trying to be problematic, I'm always interested in interesting idea's.

There is nothing to win or lose.  Only trying to save some young fella from going to his teacher and claiming a resistive heater is a
closed system.

Show me a truly closed system on a bench, one where no energy can enter or leave the system. Take a picture of it.

..
A closed system is one where the output dose not reach the enviroment. As this systems sole purpose is to create heat, and the system is housed in an insulated vessel, then no heat reaches the enviroment -thus the system is closed off from the enviroment. An open system is one that can use enviromental resources when there there to use.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Open Systems
« Reply #40 on: January 29, 2015, 02:34:07 PM »
3D Solar Panels

Offline ramset

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Re: Open Systems
« Reply #41 on: January 29, 2015, 03:20:50 PM »
HHMmmm


This is a test of the Emergency Mark E contact system...
I spoke with Mr.Potter this AM [GDS] I have a very important update.


Mark E you can get this update at Chetkremens@gmail.com


please be aware if you have been Moderated ....I had nothing at all to do with that.


Chester Don't play like that !

Offline allcanadian

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Re: Open Systems
« Reply #42 on: January 29, 2015, 05:49:22 PM »
@Farmhand
I think I jumped the gun in my responses and sometimes I can be overly critical trying to justify another perspective. My bad


In the fewest words possible, nature transforms energy into other forms which are not opposed by the original form entering the system. Nature absorbs oranges and spits out apples which is unlike anything we do. We simply pump the oranges from one place to another and we always lose.


Think of a tree, we plant a tiny seed weighing grams and years later it is a huge tree weighing tons and all the energy to do this was absorbed from the environment. What we do is burn the damn tree rather than trying to understand how it works and how to copy these natural processes which is called Biomimicry.


AC

Offline profitis

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Re: Open Systems
« Reply #43 on: January 29, 2015, 07:37:15 PM »
The energy-sink perspective is a nice one though as that is literally all it is,just a kink-flow of energy in the middle of the room.

Offline allcanadian

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Re: Open Systems
« Reply #44 on: January 29, 2015, 08:35:45 PM »
@profitis
Quote
The energy-sink perspective is a nice one though as that is literally all it is,just a kink-flow of energy in the middle of the room.


Maybe you could explain your theory to the best scientists in the best universities developing engineered materials like nano-conductors and multi-layered multi-spectrum arrays. You see the science journals and the investors clamoring to invest hundreds of millions of dollars in this technology seem to think you are completely wrong. The science journals are saying this is a leap in technology like nothing we have ever seen in the history of mankind.


Who to believe, the best and the brightest on the cutting edge of technology or some guy in a forum who seems to be stuck in the past?. I find it very odd that one person in one place can believe one thing and yet in another place another person is changing the world and receiving praise from their peers while investors throw money at them like it's going out of style. How one person can be successful beyond our wildest dreams while others sit in a forum telling everyone it cannot be done. The reality of it boggles the mind.


AC

 

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