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Author Topic: Open Systems  (Read 107394 times)

Offline MarkE

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Re: Open Systems
« Reply #15 on: January 26, 2015, 08:14:56 AM »
No prob

The answer is surprisingly  slow comming.
Maybe careful thought is being given to this,as they know what's comming?.
Could the truck driver actually be able to show an extra energy output without it effecting the already accounted for energy input ???
Whats this,energy from gravity and buoyancy without any apparent energy input:D
It's the same accounting problem as before. 

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Re: Open Systems
« Reply #15 on: January 26, 2015, 08:14:56 AM »

Offline tinman

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Re: Open Systems
« Reply #16 on: January 26, 2015, 09:43:34 AM »
The buoyant force is the force of gravity on the displaced volume of water.  The water if it can will sink into the volume occupied by the buoyant float.It takes work to increase the GPE of the system.  When an object is sunk an equivalent volume of water must be lifted out of the space that the object ends up occupying.  If the SG of the sunk object is less than that of the water it displaces, more mass moves up than moves down, requiring work.   If the SG is greater than the surrounding water, then the object sinks passively, releasing work.  Conversely, when a sunk object is lifted, a like volume of water falls into the space that the sunk object occupied.  If the SG is less than the surrounding water then the water sinks passively, releasing work as the object rises.  If the SG is greater than the surrounding water, then more mass moves up than down, and work must be done to lift the sunken object.If the SG is the same as the surrounding water then no GPE changes with any move.  But rheology will still take its toll.
Truly excellent ;)
Piece by piece were getting it done Mark :)

Now one thing we forgot here to look at.

Is all the stored energy in our hydrogen and oxygen gases converted into heat energy if we ignite the mix of the two gases-->so we have mixed our two gases together,and we send that mix through say a hydroxy torch. We have ofcourse ignited the gas mix coming out of the torch.

We want to account for all the stored energy within the two gases now.

Offline MarkE

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Re: Open Systems
« Reply #17 on: January 26, 2015, 10:53:40 AM »
Truly excellent ;)
Piece by piece were getting it done Mark :)

Now one thing we forgot here to look at.

Is all the stored energy in our hydrogen and oxygen gases converted into heat energy if we ignite the mix of the two gases-->so we have mixed our two gases together,and we send that mix through say a hydroxy torch. We have ofcourse ignited the gas mix coming out of the torch.
All the chemical bond energy will convert to heat in the reaction.  When the resulting H2O falls back to the liquid state the phase change energy will also be released as heat.  If you use a torch to ignite the mixture, then you could have a real measurement resolution issue to deal with, as you will need to know precisely how much heat the torch adds over the course of the event period.
Quote

We want to account for all the stored energy within the two gases now.
Yes we do.

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Re: Open Systems
« Reply #17 on: January 26, 2015, 10:53:40 AM »
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Offline tinman

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Re: Open Systems
« Reply #18 on: January 26, 2015, 03:34:22 PM »
Quote
All the chemical bond energy will convert to heat in the reaction.  When the resulting H2O falls back to the liquid state the phase change energy will also be released as heat.

Fabulous news Mark

 
Quote
If you use a torch to ignite the mixture, then you could have a real measurement resolution issue to deal with, as you will need to know precisely how much heat the torch adds over the course of the event period.
No No-the torch is what has the mixture of gas going through it-were not useing a torch to ignite the gas-we can use a small spark for that. we are running the HHO mix through the HHO torch as a way to mix and burn the gas, We could use any sort of gas heater designed to burn HHO to do the heating. As long as we have accounted for all the stored energy within the HHO mix being converted into heat during the phase change.

I would like you to look over the whole process now,and see that we have accounted for all the energy supplied by the battery as we feel we have. This energy supplied by the battery should now all have been converted into heat once the HHO has been ignited,and made that phase change back into water.

I am just about to hit the hay,and up early to start another weeks work on the road. I am going to give others also the chance to take a look over all the post here,and see if they think there is something we have missed.
We should now have accounted for all the energy that was supplied to the electrolisis system,and that supplied energy should now have been converted into heat.

Come friday night,i will put forth the open side of the design-->this is where the extra energy will come into play,but this is only after all here are happy with the summation so far.

P.S
Thanks for all your help on this Mark ;) I know some times we may not see eye to eye on what we believe to be true,but your help is much appreciated.

TinMan

Offline MarkE

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Re: Open Systems
« Reply #19 on: January 26, 2015, 03:50:26 PM »

Fabulous news Mark

 No No-the torch is what has the mixture of gas going through it-were not useing a torch to ignite the gas-we can use a small spark for that. we are running the HHO mix through the HHO torch as a way to mix and burn the gas, We could use any sort of gas heater designed to burn HHO to do the heating. As long as we have accounted for all the stored energy within the HHO mix being converted into heat during the phase change.

I would like you to look over the whole process now,and see that we have accounted for all the energy supplied by the battery as we feel we have. This energy supplied by the battery should now all have been converted into heat once the HHO has been ignited,and made that phase change back into water.

I am just about to hit the hay,and up early to start another weeks work on the road. I am going to give others also the chance to take a look over all the post here,and see if they think there is something we have missed.
We should now have accounted for all the energy that was supplied to the electrolisis system,and that supplied energy should now have been converted into heat.

Come friday night,i will put forth the open side of the design-->this is where the extra energy will come into play,but this is only after all here are happy with the summation so far.

P.S
Thanks for all your help on this Mark ;) I know some times we may not see eye to eye on what we believe to be true,but your help is much appreciated.

TinMan
We have talked about the different things going on.  We have yet to perform any kind of numerical accounting.  An accounting means that we will actual construct a model even if it is just a simple paper form or better a spreadsheet.  Then there is the matter of obtaining data to assign each item. 

Is it your belief that you are going to get a surplus of energy on paper without performing measurements?

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Re: Open Systems
« Reply #19 on: January 26, 2015, 03:50:26 PM »
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Offline tinman

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Re: Open Systems
« Reply #20 on: January 26, 2015, 09:38:04 PM »
We have talked about the different things going on.  We have yet to perform any kind of numerical accounting.  An accounting means that we will actual construct a model even if it is just a simple paper form or better a spreadsheet.  Then there is the matter of obtaining data to assign each item. 

Is it your belief that you are going to get a surplus of energy on paper without performing measurements?
This is why you are doing all the accounting for the energy conversions Mark-you are putting it on paper. We are useing your beloved laws of physics to account for all energy in,and all energy out/disipated. This is why i am asking you(and others) to make sure we have converted and accounted for all the energy the battery delivered.

Offline MarkE

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Re: Open Systems
« Reply #21 on: January 26, 2015, 09:41:22 PM »
This is why you are doing all the accounting for the energy conversions Mark-you are putting it on paper. We are useing your beloved laws of physics to account for all energy in,and all energy out/disipated. This is why i am asking you(and others) to make sure we have converted and accounted for all the energy the battery delivered.
In order to do so we have to agree on all the inputs and outputs.  When you are ready to describe the entire test set-up, we can do that.

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Re: Open Systems
« Reply #21 on: January 26, 2015, 09:41:22 PM »
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Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Open Systems
« Reply #22 on: January 26, 2015, 10:41:17 PM »
"HHO" implies monoatomic gases. These gases (hydrogen and oxygen) do not exist in unbound monoatomic forms at normal temperatures and pressures! They exist as diatomic molecules, H2 and O2.  Careful measurements of volumes, and considering the combined Boyle-Charles-GayLussac law, will show the true nature of the evolved gases.

From one mole of water, 18 grams of H2O, "HHO" implies 3 moles (~22.4 liters x 3) of evolved dry gases at STP. But if the gases are actually the diatomic species H2 and O2 we expect one mole of H2 and one-half mole of O2 from one mole of H2O, that is (~22.4 liters x 1.5) of evolved dry gasses at STP.

Has anyone who claims "HHO" monoatomic gases actually done this molar volume measurement properly (that is, drying and cooling the evolved gases to make dry gas at STP for the volume measurement)?

Offline profitis

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Re: Open Systems
« Reply #23 on: January 26, 2015, 11:16:11 PM »
This gas buoancy device will work.h2 gas is swallowed at cathode and spits out of anode.only 0.1v-0.2v power source is needed and height of column can be made arbritarily large.this will work because entropy actually increases at base and decreases at top making some margin for gain

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Re: Open Systems
« Reply #23 on: January 26, 2015, 11:16:11 PM »
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Offline tinman

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Re: Open Systems
« Reply #24 on: January 27, 2015, 02:42:25 AM »
In order to do so we have to agree on all the inputs and outputs.  When you are ready to describe the entire test set-up, we can do that.
There will be no more input to the electrolisis unit other than that of what the batteries supply.There will however be an additional output from an open system that is a result of the actions of the closed system-but dose not impinge on that closed system-the electrolisis system.
If you are happy that we have accounted for all the energy the battery supplied to the electrolisis unit in the end form of heat, then we will move on. If you are not satisfied that we have converted all the supplied energy into heat, then this must be resolved before we go any further. The reason being that it must be a proof of concept on paper, as it would be very expensive to build and test-but with the monies avaliable, it can be done quite easily

Offline MarkE

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Re: Open Systems
« Reply #25 on: January 27, 2015, 03:13:37 AM »
There will be no more input to the electrolisis unit other than that of what the batteries supply.There will however be an additional output from an open system that is a result of the actions of the closed system-but dose not impinge on that closed system-the electrolisis system.
If you are happy that we have accounted for all the energy the battery supplied to the electrolisis unit in the end form of heat, then we will move on. If you are not satisfied that we have converted all the supplied energy into heat, then this must be resolved before we go any further. The reason being that it must be a proof of concept on paper, as it would be very expensive to build and test-but with the monies avaliable, it can be done quite easily
Please draw a simple sketch of where you want to define the boundaries of your inputs and outputs.  We have the battery that will apply some constant amount of power for a fixed amount of time?  We have the water volume at an initial temperature and volume?  We have an internal gas volume at an intial temperture and volume?    We are then going to run the unit and do what with the gas as it emanates?  Do you intend to let it escape and then ignite it?  Or do you intend to collect it at some pressure and measure the volume under an assumption of an HHV value?  What do you plan to do with the water that results?  Do you want to return it to the vessel?  Finally, whatever this open system you wish to attach to, you need to define what will be exchanged with it, so that we can measure it, whether we do that hypothetically on paper or in an actual experiment.

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Re: Open Systems
« Reply #25 on: January 27, 2015, 03:13:37 AM »
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Offline tinman

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Re: Open Systems
« Reply #26 on: January 27, 2015, 03:31:34 AM »
Please draw a simple sketch of where you want to define the boundaries of your inputs and outputs.  We have the battery that will apply some constant amount of power for a fixed amount of time?  We have the water volume at an initial temperature and volume?  We have an internal gas volume at an intial temperture and volume?    We are then going to run the unit and do what with the gas as it emanates?  Do you intend to let it escape and then ignite it?  Or do you intend to collect it at some pressure and measure the volume under an assumption of an HHV value?  What do you plan to do with the water that results?  Do you want to return it to the vessel?  Finally, whatever this open system you wish to attach to, you need to define what will be exchanged with it, so that we can measure it, whether we do that hypothetically on paper or in an actual experiment.
The gas will be stored at pressure, then once we are ready, we will ignite the gas mix, and theresulting water will be returned back to the electrolisis cell for use on the second cycle.

Offline MarkE

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Re: Open Systems
« Reply #27 on: January 27, 2015, 03:49:29 AM »
Is the intent to keep the cell highly insulated or exchange the heat evolved to an external sink?

Offline tinman

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Re: Open Systems
« Reply #28 on: January 27, 2015, 06:04:54 AM »
Is the intent to keep the cell highly insulated or exchange the heat evolved to an external sink?
We want to heat a sealed vessel that the complete electrolisis unit is housed in. I needed a way to heat a sealed area (room so to speak), but also a force to opperate the workings of the secondary open system. That force is the pressure in the storage tanks for the H and O. This pressure would be there regardless if the secondary system is there or not. This is why the secondary system is an open system, as it dose not impinge on the primary system in any way.
The primary system effects the secondary open system, but the secondary system dose not effect the primary system.

Offline MarkE

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Re: Open Systems
« Reply #29 on: January 27, 2015, 06:38:38 AM »
We want to heat a sealed vessel that the complete electrolisis unit is housed in. I needed a way to heat a sealed area (room so to speak), but also a force to opperate the workings of the secondary open system. That force is the pressure in the storage tanks for the H and O. This pressure would be there regardless if the secondary system is there or not. This is why the secondary system is an open system, as it dose not impinge on the primary system in any way.
The primary system effects the secondary open system, but the secondary system dose not effect the primary system.
When you've settled in on what you want please draw a sketch.

 

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