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Author Topic: Open Systems  (Read 107751 times)

Offline allcanadian

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Open Systems
« on: January 25, 2015, 03:23:46 PM »
This is from a previous debate on another thread
Now your thinking, the DWFTTW process appeared to the weak minded as a violation of physics because you cannot get more than what is already there. However their error was in the Energy accounting of an open system and a failure to understand what was there and available to use. You are correct and the rules which apply to closed systems do not always apply to open systems because obviously they are not the same thing.
If I put 1w of electric energy into a resistance heater I will always get 1w of heat out but if I put 1w of electrical energy into a heat pump I may get 5w of heat out. A resistance heater is a closed system and a heat pump is an open system...it's that simple. The critics are simply arguing that all systems must remain closed, they are arguing that the simple resistance heater is the only way of doing things which as we know is pure delusion. Why if they had their way we would have to install our wind turbines, heat pumps and solar panels inside dark closed boxes just to satisfy their twisted notion of reality.
AC

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Open Systems
« on: January 25, 2015, 03:23:46 PM »

Offline MarkE

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Re: Open Systems
« Reply #1 on: January 25, 2015, 04:01:31 PM »
Your post is littered with false assertions answered in the other thread.

Offline tinman

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Re: Open Systems
« Reply #2 on: January 25, 2015, 04:11:42 PM »
Very true AC.
When a combination of a closed system and an open system are combined,we have a system that can deliver a net gain in energy output over that of which the closed system was supplied.The open system is ofcourse nature itself in the above case that AC mentioned,and the system i am about to present here over the next week or two. The time factor is due to the fact that i work long hours,and dont have a computor avaliable during working hours-the joys of being on the road for a living. The aditive to this time is that we will also !no doubt! have to deal with those in the know in regards to the concervation of energy ;)

Quote: In physics, the law of conservation of energy states that the total energy of an isolated system remains constant—it is said to be conserved over time. Energy can be neither created nor be destroyed, but it can change form, for instance chemical energy can be converted to kinetic energy in the explosion of a stick of dynamite.

A consequence of the law of conservation of energy is that a perpetual motion machine of the first kind cannot exist. That is to say, no system without an external energy supply can deliver an unlimited amount of energy to its surroundings.

All that is needed is an open system to supply the extra energy ontop of that which was supplied and accounted for in the closed system.

Our open system will consist of the gravitational force,and the buoyant force.

Gravitational force
Quote: gravitational force - (physics) the force of attraction between all masses in the universe; especially the attraction of the earth's mass for bodies near its surface; "the more remote the body the less the gravity"; "the gravitation between two bodies is proportional to the product of their masses and inversely proportional to the square of the distance between them";

The gravitational force will be supplying our system with a downward force,and that force is the mass of our system.

The buoyant force.
Quote: When an object is placed in a fluid, the fluid exerts an upward force we call the buoyant force. The buoyant force comes from the pressure exerted on the object by the fluid. Because the pressure increases as the depth increases, the pressure on the bottom of an object is always larger than the force on the top - hence the net upward force.

The buoyant force is what will supply the upward force in our system,and that force is dependant on the buoyant surface area,and the density of the mass within that buoyant surface area.

Below is a diagram of our closed system that conforms to the law of the conservation of energy-as stated in the diagram.
Our confirmation has been agreed upon-Quote: If the energy accounting balances, which everytime it has ever been done correctly it always has, then there is neither surplus nor deficit.
Quote:Energy is conserved in your electrolysis example.


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Re: Open Systems
« Reply #2 on: January 25, 2015, 04:11:42 PM »
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Offline MarkE

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Re: Open Systems
« Reply #3 on: January 25, 2015, 07:45:33 PM »
Both quoted statements are correct.  Now feel free to try and generate a surplus or a deficit.

Offline Pirate88179

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Re: Open Systems
« Reply #4 on: January 25, 2015, 09:26:39 PM »
"Energy can not be created or destroyed." 

Do we always know where the energy goes in all possible cases?  What I mean is...I believe that the above law is still intact.  My question is, can we always know where energy is dissipated (as heat) or converted in any device?  Is there any "gray" area here?

I have no examples at this time, but if I think about it, I may be able to come up with some possible scenarios.

I am not taking sides here, just wanting to learn.

Bill

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Re: Open Systems
« Reply #4 on: January 25, 2015, 09:26:39 PM »
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Offline MarkE

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Re: Open Systems
« Reply #5 on: January 25, 2015, 10:45:17 PM »
"Energy can not be created or destroyed." 

Do we always know where the energy goes in all possible cases?  What I mean is...I believe that the above law is still intact.  My question is, can we always know where energy is dissipated (as heat) or converted in any device?  Is there any "gray" area here?

I have no examples at this time, but if I think about it, I may be able to come up with some possible scenarios.

I am not taking sides here, just wanting to learn.

Bill
I am not aware of any such situations either.

Offline tinman

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Re: Open Systems
« Reply #6 on: January 26, 2015, 01:05:47 AM »
Both quoted statements are correct.  Now feel free to try and generate a surplus or a deficit.
Are you saying that this system(the electrolisis unit) cannot or dose not have the capability to give rise to another form of energy output now that all energy within the system has been accounted for?

What if we were to change the enviroment in which this system opperates?
If we had a heat sink of sorts on the electrolisis unit to disipate the heat,would that change the outcome-->silly question i know,but needs to be asked none the less.

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Re: Open Systems
« Reply #6 on: January 26, 2015, 01:05:47 AM »
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Offline MarkE

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Re: Open Systems
« Reply #7 on: January 26, 2015, 01:34:02 AM »
Are you saying that this system(the electrolisis unit) cannot or dose not have the capability to give rise to another form of energy output now that all energy within the system has been accounted for?
I am saying that if one accounts for all of the energy/matter the total amount at the beginning and end of the process will be found to be the same.
Quote

What if we were to change the enviroment in which this system opperates?
What about it?  Either you do all the accounting or you don't.  If you do all the accounting correctly, then the energy/matter will balance.
Quote
If we had a heat sink of sorts on the electrolisis unit to disipate the heat,would that change the outcome-->silly question i know,but needs to be asked none the less.
Add a heatsink, add a heater.  It doesn't matter unless you fail to do the accounting correctly.

Offline tinman

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Re: Open Systems
« Reply #8 on: January 26, 2015, 02:17:23 AM »
I am saying that if one accounts for all of the energy/matter the total amount at the beginning and end of the process will be found to be the same.What about it?  Either you do all the accounting or you don't.  If you do all the accounting correctly, then the energy/matter will balance.Add a heatsink, add a heater.  It doesn't matter unless you fail to do the accounting correctly.
OK-so we agree that we have accounted for all the energies within the electrolisis unit-correct?

You may find this a little !drag! MarkE,but piece by piece you are going to be the one that confirms this extra energy.
So in saying that,here is my next question.
Q-Dose it require energy to move a mass through a body of water?

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Re: Open Systems
« Reply #8 on: January 26, 2015, 02:17:23 AM »
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Offline Pirate88179

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Re: Open Systems
« Reply #9 on: January 26, 2015, 02:31:23 AM »
OK-so we agree that we have accounted for all the energies within the electrolisis unit-correct?

You may find this a little !drag! MarkE,but piece by piece you are going to be the one that confirms this extra energy.
So in saying that,here is my next question.
Q-Dose it require energy to move a mass through a body of water?

Not enough information.  Move a mass through water in what direction?  Up?  Down (gravity) Left, right?  How fast?  How far? (time)  I think I understand what you might be getting at here but, you probably need to re-phrase your question a little.

(Please notice I did not ask what the temperature was outside, or how large the body of water was, or, if it was salt water, or day, or night.  So, I am not trying to be a smart ass.)

Bill

Offline tinman

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Re: Open Systems
« Reply #10 on: January 26, 2015, 02:45:13 AM »
Not enough information.  Move a mass through water in what direction?  Up?  Down (gravity) Left, right?  How fast?  How far? (time)  I think I understand what you might be getting at here but, you probably need to re-phrase your question a little.

(Please notice I did not ask what the temperature was outside, or how large the body of water was, or, if it was salt water, or day, or night.  So, I am not trying to be a smart ass.)

Bill
Lol-your starting to sound like MH and MarkE-->or is that the intention.
Regardless-it dosnt matter/up down/left ./right-->it's moving a mass against an enviroment that has friction. When you move a mass through water,you displace the same volume of water as the volume of the mass. If a mass is sinking,then the force being applied to that mass is gravity-gravity is doing the work here. If the mass is rising,then the buoyant force is doing the work.
If the mass rises to the surface,it would have taken energy to get it to the bottom of the body of water. If the mass sink's,then it will take energy to get it to the surface.

But to top it off,we can move in any direction you like,it really dosnt matter ;). We can go left/right/up/down-->loop de loops and all :D

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Re: Open Systems
« Reply #10 on: January 26, 2015, 02:45:13 AM »
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Offline Pirate88179

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Re: Open Systems
« Reply #11 on: January 26, 2015, 02:52:46 AM »
Brad:

Thank you for clarifying that.

I have no answer so I will sit back and await replies from those more knowledgeable than myself.

Bill

PS  Thank you for taking my question in the spirit in which it was intended.

Offline tinman

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Re: Open Systems
« Reply #12 on: January 26, 2015, 07:04:05 AM »
Brad:

Thank you for clarifying that.

I have no answer so I will sit back and await replies from those more knowledgeable than myself.

Bill

PS  Thank you for taking my question in the spirit in which it was intended.
No prob

The answer is surprisingly  slow comming.
Maybe careful thought is being given to this,as they know what's comming?.
Could the truck driver actually be able to show an extra energy output without it effecting the already accounted for energy input ???
Whats this,energy from gravity and buoyancy without any apparent energy input:D

Offline MarkE

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Re: Open Systems
« Reply #13 on: January 26, 2015, 08:05:03 AM »
OK-so we agree that we have accounted for all the energies within the electrolisis unit-correct?

You may find this a little !drag! MarkE,but piece by piece you are going to be the one that confirms this extra energy.
So in saying that,here is my next question.
Q-Dose it require energy to move a mass through a body of water?
You may think so.  You can play twenty questions all you want.  When it comes down to performing an energy balance you will need to articulate a reasonably complete description of your set-up, measurement methods, and measurement results.

Quote
Quote
Q-Dose it require energy to move a mass through a body of water?
It takes energy to move a volume of anything, including water through a body of water just due to rheology. 

Offline MarkE

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Re: Open Systems
« Reply #14 on: January 26, 2015, 08:13:49 AM »
Lol-your starting to sound like MH and MarkE-->or is that the intention.
Regardless-it dosnt matter/up down/left ./right-->it's moving a mass against an enviroment that has friction. When you move a mass through water,you displace the same volume of water as the volume of the mass. If a mass is sinking,then the force being applied to that mass is gravity-gravity is doing the work here. If the mass is rising,then the buoyant force is doing the work.
The buoyant force is the force of gravity on the displaced volume of water.  The water if it can will sink into the volume occupied by the buoyant float.
Quote
If the mass rises to the surface,it would have taken energy to get it to the bottom of the body of water. If the mass sink's,then it will take energy to get it to the surface.
It takes work to increase the GPE of the system.  When an object is sunk an equivalent volume of water must be lifted out of the space that the object ends up occupying.  If the SG of the sunk object is less than that of the water it displaces, more mass moves up than moves down, requiring work.  If the SG is greater than the surrounding water, then the object sinks passively, releasing work.  Conversely, when a sunk object is lifted, a like volume of water falls into the space that the sunk object occupied.  If the SG is less than the surrounding water then the water sinks passively, releasing work as the object rises.  If the SG is greater than the surrounding water, then more mass moves up than down, and work must be done to lift the sunken object.
Quote

But to top it off,we can move in any direction you like,it really dosnt matter ;). We can go left/right/up/down-->loop de loops and all :D
If the SG is the same as the surrounding water then no GPE changes with any move.  But rheology will still take its toll.

 

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