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### Author Topic: Wheel vs. lever...  (Read 24943 times)

#### iacob alex

• Hero Member
• Posts: 1280
##### Re: Wheel vs. lever...
« Reply #30 on: June 29, 2009, 02:53:51 AM »

Hi !

Ok ! Let's say that this topic ("wheel vs. topic") is not substantial for us...

Then,thinking that a wheel concept (or a lever one...) is made up,in a possible elementary design,as a repetitive addition of a certain number of identic spokes to a common hub,we can simplify our "search"...

Now we have a single and final "minimum minimorum" type question:how is a spoke,a single one...

This is all what we want,nothing more...

All the Best!  /Alex

#### iacob alex

• Hero Member
• Posts: 1280
##### Re: Wheel vs. lever...
« Reply #31 on: August 27, 2009, 10:00:29 PM »

...as a face to face concepts counterpoise,to imagine a possible gravity device,is similar with the purpose ,to take away some power from a "frozen river" vs. to take power from a "free falling " spring/flow .

For any wheel design,the free fall is allowed as much,as the distance between two successive spokes :more spokes,less free fall.

For any water/wind mill,the first requirement is to have a free flow...

For a gravity powered device , we have the same dependence !

All the best! / Alex

#### iacob alex

• Hero Member
• Posts: 1280
##### Re: Wheel vs. lever...
« Reply #32 on: December 14, 2009, 08:02:51 PM »

......can be a "PM dilemma",in my opinion.

This questionable attempt,was solved,in some way,in the art of flying.

If you take a look at:   http://www.flyinggiants.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10595&page=4

you can see,that an aircraft can use a propeller with a single blade...

Then,why not to imagine, a possible PM with a single spoke!?

All the best! / Alex

#### iacob alex

• Hero Member
• Posts: 1280
##### Re: Wheel vs. lever...
« Reply #33 on: August 17, 2020, 09:48:40 PM »
.....or playing gravity with a wheel concept , as :
www.energythic.com/view.php?node=264
.....or playing gravity with a lever concept , as :
www.geocities.ws/iacob_alex/Some_Drafts/text021.jpg
www.geocities.ws/iacob_alex/Some_Drafts/text022.JPG
.....or , why not ?...your proposal/model!?
Al_ex

#### sm0ky2

• Hero Member
• Posts: 3948
##### Re: Wheel vs. lever...
« Reply #34 on: August 21, 2020, 02:09:23 AM »
Why not just attach a flywheel to the side of the lever
Then you have the mechanical advantage
As well as the rotational momentum

#### iacob alex

• Hero Member
• Posts: 1280
##### Re: Wheel vs. lever...
« Reply #35 on: August 21, 2020, 08:31:12 PM »

#### iacob alex

• Hero Member
• Posts: 1280
##### Re: Wheel vs. lever...
« Reply #36 on: November 01, 2023, 12:54:25 PM »
….if lever plays as a practical “minimal /spokes” wheel .at : https://www.gettyimages.in/photos/lever-physics
Al_ex

#### Cloxxki

• Hero Member
• Posts: 1083
##### Re: Wheel vs. lever...
« Reply #37 on: November 01, 2023, 01:52:16 PM »
….if lever plays as a practical “minimal /spokes” wheel .at : https://www.gettyimages.in/photos/lever-physics
Al_ex
That was a waste of my minute. What specific image did you mean? Could you perhaps upload it and offer a bit more context?

#### norman6538

• Hero Member
• Posts: 587
##### Re: Wheel vs. lever...
« Reply #38 on: November 01, 2023, 10:58:17 PM »
Reference post 33
.....or playing gravity with a wheel concept , as :
www.energythic.com/view.php?node=264

I tested the concept of moving the arm/weight 90 degrees in line with the wheel and it does rotate because its mass is shifted from the axle. I call that the "set" and then after it rotates less than 180 degrees a "reset" must be done so it is re-balanced and no work is required to get it back to the top for a repeat . So I call that "switching" and it would have to have more energy from the rotation than the "switching".

I made something similar where a smaller weight with leverage raised a larger weight upward from the axle as it tilted and went past noon and did rotate about 100 degrees but would not continue. Then when those leveraged weights got to the bottom it reset itself....

Norman

#### norman6538

• Hero Member
• Posts: 587
##### Re: Wheel vs. lever...
« Reply #39 on: November 03, 2023, 02:41:51 PM »
Further analysis and testing shows that "setting/switching" would have to be done on the fly at 12-1 where the greatest leverage is available and then "resetting/switching" back to balanced at about 4:30 so the weight does not go outside the circle of rotation causing work loss to lift it back up to its balanced position. I am sure Finsrud could finesse this well.

I will do some crude tests to see if it is even close to possible.

I have a second mechanism that could do that without any inertia losses...

I have always said it will take multiple mechanisms to work together to have a gravity wheel successful.

Norman

#### norman6538

• Hero Member
• Posts: 587
##### Re: Wheel vs. lever...
« Reply #40 on: November 03, 2023, 10:51:26 PM »
The latest test takes the weight from noon to 9 pm but when it goes past 4.30-5 the weight goes outside the circle and would take work to lift it back into a balanced position. Now the hard part is to get the switching to work with the power that is created from the rotation/leaning. Indeed it is a very clever idea to avoid the losses in the reset.

Norman

#### norman6538

• Hero Member
• Posts: 587
##### Re: Wheel vs. lever...
« Reply #41 on: November 05, 2023, 12:23:04 AM »
Using crude measurements

1. set   One nut moved horizontally 1.5 in. with less than 1.5 units of work
2. lifts an equal nut 5.5 in  366% OU
3. reset 1.5 units of work

giving a minimum of 183% OU.

So manually one marble would lift another marble 5.5 units and 1.5 units of that work out could reset the machine to repeat the process.

But I would guess half a marble would move the marble  horizontally increasing the OU to over 600%.

So picture this. A marble machine where you move the marble to do the set and it lifts another marble 5.5 inches which can then be partially used to reset and move the arm back so its balanced. You then do the reset and then the set and all you have done is roll 2 marbles  horizontally to make at least 3.5 units of free work.

As my neighbor says "There you have it".
Norman

#### Tarsier_79

• Full Member
• Posts: 118
##### Re: Wheel vs. lever...
« Reply #42 on: November 05, 2023, 02:56:56 AM »
Perhaps an image?

#### thx4

• Jr. Member
• Posts: 57
##### Re: Wheel vs. lever...
« Reply #43 on: November 06, 2023, 09:16:39 AM »

Article de référence 33
.....ou jouer à la gravité avec un concept de roue, comme :
www.energythic.com/view.php?node=264

It was a friend of mine who made this sketch, which has since disappeared and was plagiarized by this site. there are a lot of TDCs on this planet!!. It's a wrong direction, the imbalance of any kind can never reset, and that's logical, forget Newton's laws, just experiment, it's never going to work in this direction, but there are others.

#### norman6538

• Hero Member
• Posts: 587
##### Re: Wheel vs. lever...
« Reply #44 on: November 06, 2023, 12:48:07 PM »
Thanks for sharing this method. It has lots of merritt but what I have found is that when weight is shifted  as in this case just past noon that half of the wheel becomes bottom heavy and that has to be corrected before it gets to the bottom. And usually one thinks that adding more weights will fix it but I have found that often it reduces the work out because now there is more mass to move.

So my current effort is to add something to undo the bottom heavy problem before its too late in the rotation. But without some clever geometry it will counter affect the rotation.

Currently I do not have a wheel but a "seesaw/pivot/rotation" that works best in reverse of the drawings.

But the great point in this design is that it has a smaller "reset" loss than other designs I have seen and worked with. When the shifted weight starts the wheel to turn the "reset loss" is not near zero unless the weight is at the bottom and with a wheel in motion that would be tough to time correctly.

I am only using 2 weights/arms

Norman