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Author Topic: Partnered Output Coils - Free Energy  (Read 2703210 times)

Offline minnie

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Re: Partnered Output Coils - Free Energy
« Reply #4920 on: July 19, 2015, 05:11:57 PM »



 At the end of the day it's all down to photons, trillions and trillions
of the things. And they all balance....exactly! You can have as many
bosons as you like, not fermions though.
          John.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Partnered Output Coils - Free Energy
« Reply #4920 on: July 19, 2015, 05:11:57 PM »

Offline tinman

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Re: Partnered Output Coils - Free Energy
« Reply #4921 on: July 19, 2015, 05:13:48 PM »
, as has the fact that the experiment as established does not measure it.  So, no the experiment does not show that the PM performs useful work.  It establishes only that a stronger field can be established, much as the ferrite block allows for a stronger field at higher magnetizing energy cost than a block of wood.It is a bit more complicated than that, but not much.  You can aid or buck the electromagnet with a permanent magnet.  As I have shown in the current versus time plots, the current versus time under constant voltage drive differs for the three cases.  Three different input energies result in three different spring extensions.

I assume you can back this up with actual experiments MarkE?-as i have done.

Quote
At this point my patience is wearing thin because over and over and over, very patiently, and graphically the input energy that matters has been pointed out

This always happens with you Mark when some one will not agree with you-as i do not,and have experimental proof to back up my claims. If you are getting angry,then maybe this is not the place for you,or you should just block me-so as you dont have to see what i have to say. This way you will not have to try and convince me of something i know is not true.

I stand by my claim,that PM's can do useful work,and i have experimental data to back it up.
I have measured the input energy,by way of stored energy within a capacitor-as i stated a few post back. This is accurate down to the mJ,so im not sure how much more accurate you would like it.

Offline tinman

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Re: Partnered Output Coils - Free Energy
« Reply #4922 on: July 19, 2015, 05:16:36 PM »
Maybe my past experiments can help here.

I had found in my mostly magnet motor design that I could increase an electromagnet pull force by adding PM.

I started with a small model that could pull 250 grams on the scale with a power input of 1/2 a watt. So I built a bigger model and could pull 500 grams with the same 1/2 watt input. So then I built a super model that could pull 2,500 grams with the same 1/2 watt input power.

Do we remember what we learned from this?

Luc

yes-force is not energy,and bigger is not always better-well in most cases anyway.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Partnered Output Coils - Free Energy
« Reply #4922 on: July 19, 2015, 05:16:36 PM »
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Offline poynt99

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Re: Partnered Output Coils - Free Energy
« Reply #4923 on: July 19, 2015, 05:17:01 PM »
Brad,

Would you mind walking through your steps taken while doing your capacitor/energy test with the pendulum?

Thanks.

Offline tinman

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Re: Partnered Output Coils - Free Energy
« Reply #4924 on: July 19, 2015, 05:22:20 PM »
Brad,

Would you mind walking through your steps taken while doing your capacitor/energy test with the pendulum?

Thanks.
I will do better than that Poynt-i will do a video on the test carried out-in more ways than one.
But for now,i must hit the hay,as it is midnight here,and i have to be up at 6am to start work.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Partnered Output Coils - Free Energy
« Reply #4924 on: July 19, 2015, 05:22:20 PM »
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Offline lost_bro

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Re: Partnered Output Coils - Free Energy
« Reply #4925 on: July 19, 2015, 05:24:10 PM »
Mark.E
A laser beam.  Once again you fail.
 
   MarkE: Please direct me to where you got the idea that a laser beam has voltage and no electrons.
Or can you prove that this is so. Can you provide proof of an electron, or the lack of them? Empirical proof.
  I thought that light was composed of photons, not electrons, or voltage. Little did I know.
  Does Sun light have voltage too, and no electrons, as well.
  How can you be sure? Who can we trust,  NASA perhaps??? Your old school teacher, maybe.
   Most everything that NASA has done and said, has been lies. 

   There are no OU prizes being awarded.  Must mean that there are no self running devices, either.
  Kapanadze, Akula, Ruslan, Stepanov, Sr 193, Vasmus, etz... All a bunch of fakes. Right?
 I've never seen a self runner. Have you?  They must not exist then, or someone would have won the prize.
  Same thing with ghosts,and spirits,  just peoples imagination. No proof. Just BS. 
  Telepathy, no not that as well. No proof.

   Can you Mark, prove to me that what we call "SunLight" comes from the Sun? 
Really, how?

Good day NickZ

You forgot the N.D.E.,, Near Death Experience..............

take care , peace
lost_bro

Offline gotoluc

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Re: Partnered Output Coils - Free Energy
« Reply #4926 on: July 19, 2015, 05:24:41 PM »
Maybe my past experiments can help here.

I had found in my mostly magnet motor design that I could increase an electromagnet pull force by adding PM.

I started with a small model that could pull 250 grams on the scale with a power input of 1/2 a watt. So I built a bigger model and could pull 500 grams with the same 1/2 watt input. So then I built a super model that could pull 2,500 grams with the same 1/2 watt input power.

Do we remember what we learned from this?

Luc

What was not apparent at the beginning and became very apparent with the super build is, as we increase the surface area and size of the permanent magnets the electromagnet coil was moving much much slower then the first build.

Sure the pull force (torque) was much more (10x) in the super build with the same 1/2 watt input but the time it took to move say a 1 inch distance took 10 times more time then the first model did.
So which one is better?

Luc

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Partnered Output Coils - Free Energy
« Reply #4926 on: July 19, 2015, 05:24:41 PM »
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Offline picowatt

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Re: Partnered Output Coils - Free Energy
« Reply #4927 on: July 19, 2015, 05:28:00 PM »
This is where everything that is really simple,gets turned into something that is unnecessarily complicated.
All you need is a known weight,a capacitor of know value,and a set voltage-nothing more other than the rest of the mechanical setup.
You guys make things so complicated,when in fact,there quite simple test to carry out.

What you state sounds quite intuitive.  However, I do not believe I am over complicating anything.

We seem to agree that it is only during the period of change that work is being performed.

How does "rate of change" enter into everything?         

Do we not need to measure all variables with regard to time/rate?

PW 

Offline gotoluc

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Re: Partnered Output Coils - Free Energy
« Reply #4928 on: July 19, 2015, 05:41:35 PM »
What was not apparent at the beginning and became very apparent with the super build is, as we increase the surface area and size of the permanent magnets the electromagnet coil was moving much much slower then the first build.

Sure the pull force (torque) was much more (10x) in the super build with the same 1/2 watt input but the time it took to move say a 1 inch distance took 10 times more time then the first model did.
So which one is better?

Luc

What I learned and well from those experiments is, if we have an electromagnet moving in a magnetic field no matter how powerful the PM field is, the counter force the electromagnet experiences is the limiting factor and is why electric motors do not get any more efficient then 95%

If there is a way to reduce this limitation by bucking fields and or shorting coils at a certain time, then this is worth experimenting and why I am here.

Luc

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Partnered Output Coils - Free Energy
« Reply #4928 on: July 19, 2015, 05:41:35 PM »
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Offline verpies

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Re: Partnered Output Coils - Free Energy
« Reply #4929 on: July 19, 2015, 05:59:50 PM »
We all agree that it takes energy to create a magnetic field<--right?
Right

So with this being understood, i can give good reason as to how and why a PM can do useful work in regards to my experiment.
That will be determined by the experiment and  I am not even there yet.
At this stage I am trying to narrow down how the electric energy is going to be measured in it.
I accept that the extension of the spring is a good measure of the mechanical output energy.
I balk at the notion of the final current being an indicator of input energy.

1A flowing through a coil can mean 1mJ or 10J of stored magnetic energy, depending on coil's inductance ( E=
┬ŻLi2 ).

Before you counter that the coil is the same and has the same inductance, notice that it is not true between the two runs of your experiment, because the inductance of the coil is strongly affected by materials of high permeability in its vicinity and in the first run you have a block of highly permeable material and in the second one you have a permanent magnet whose permeability is close to that of air.

In order for the electromagnet to be attracted, a temporary field of opposite poles must be built around that ferrite keeper. As we know,to build or produce a magnetic field takes energy,and in this case,the energy is supplied by the electrical energy flowing into the coil to build that field around the ferrite keeper.
Yes, but we cannot measure this energy by the current alone.

When we change that ferrite keeper out for the PM, no energy is required to build that second field, as it already exists -->that second field is already built.
So no energy is needed to temporarily align the magnetic domains within the keeper to create that temporary magnetic field,as it already exist with the PM.
Yes, and that is why it takes less energy to achieve the same current level flowing in the coil. compared to the case with soft ferrite.

"PM" ... reduces the needed energy required to create that second magnetic field.
Yes, that was my point all along.  It takes less electric energy to build up the current in the coil to e.g. 1A with the permanent magnet than worth a soft ferrite. You just cannot measure this energy by this 1A current level alone.

Correct this input electric energy measurement method in your experiment and we can proceed further.

Offline MarkE

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Re: Partnered Output Coils - Free Energy
« Reply #4930 on: July 19, 2015, 06:02:49 PM »
I assume you can back this up with actual experiments MarkE?-as i have done.
I can show all day long the difference in electrical energy input that it takes to magnetize one electromagnet or another:  different pole shoe arrangements, with or without PM's in the magnetic circuit etc.  I object to your claim that you have backed your energy input claims with actual experiments because many times now, I and others have explained to you how your experiment as constructed failed to measure the input energy that goes into magnetizing the magnet.
Quote

This always happens with you Mark when some one will not agree with you-as i do not,and have experimental proof to back up my claims. If you are getting angry,then maybe this is not the place for you,or you should just block me-so as you dont have to see what i have to say. This way you will not have to try and convince me of something i know is not true.
If you are going to just stick your fingers in your ears and say "na, na, na" against rock solid science then you only hurt yourself.
Quote

I stand by my claim,that PM's can do useful work,and i have experimental data to back it up.
Yes, you do despite the clear and doubtless refutations offered to the validity of your experiments, no matter how well intentioned the experiments are.
Quote
I have measured the input energy,by way of stored energy within a capacitor-as i stated a few post back. This is accurate down to the mJ,so im not sure how much more accurate you would like it.
If you want to go into detail with that different experiment we can.  Charging up a capacitor to a fixed level does not establish the magnetization energy.  It sets a limit on the amount of energy that you are testing but with side effects.  It adds additional subtleties in terms of the efficieny of the energy transfer because your different magnet set-ups result in different inductances, and therefore different LC time constants.  It is remarkable that you seem unfazed either by the implication that if what you think you see were real that bed rock physics would be wrong, or that multiple people offering you detailed explanations of what is wrong with your measurements.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Partnered Output Coils - Free Energy
« Reply #4930 on: July 19, 2015, 06:02:49 PM »
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Offline Pirate88179

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Re: Partnered Output Coils - Free Energy
« Reply #4931 on: July 19, 2015, 07:09:24 PM »
Walk across your carpet and touch the door knob.  You might be annoyed, but you will still be standing.  You just discharged a capacitor that on a nice really dry day: say winter indoors in Chicago can get charged to 25kV or more.

Also, walking across that carpet in a very, very dry environment holding a cfl bulb in your hand will cause it to light up brightly in discharge pulses.  By walking, I really mean dragging your feet on the floor while wearing wool socks.  I did this some time ago which proved to me that my college physics professor was wrong when he scolded me about static electricity being unable to do any work.  To my mind, lighting a cfl is work.  The cfl never goes completely dark either and it does get pretty bright before/as a discharge occurs.

Bill

Offline MarkE

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Re: Partnered Output Coils - Free Energy
« Reply #4932 on: July 19, 2015, 07:15:51 PM »
Also, walking across that carpet in a very, very dry environment holding a cfl bulb in your hand will cause it to light up brightly in discharge pulses.  By walking, I really mean dragging your feet on the floor while wearing wool socks.  I did this some time ago which proved to me that my college physics professor was wrong when he scolded me about static electricity being unable to do any work.  To my mind, lighting a cfl is work.  The cfl never goes completely dark either and it does get pretty bright before/as a discharge occurs.

Bill
A reasonable complaint about many a teacher is that they can fall into dogmatic posturing.  Static electricity doesn't do any work:  As long as it remains static.  But stored charge is more than happy find its way through circuit paths intended or not doing work that is beneficial or otherwise.  Some smart ass student could walk into class witha static discharge gun and ask the teacher if static electricity can't do any work, would the teacher mind extending his / her finger for a few moments to help with an edifying experiment.

Offline Pirate88179

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Re: Partnered Output Coils - Free Energy
« Reply #4933 on: July 19, 2015, 07:54:44 PM »
A reasonable complaint about many a teacher is that they can fall into dogmatic posturing.  Static electricity doesn't do any work:  As long as it remains static.  But stored charge is more than happy find its way through circuit paths intended or not doing work that is beneficial or otherwise.  Some smart ass student could walk into class witha static discharge gun and ask the teacher if static electricity can't do any work, would the teacher mind extending his / her finger for a few moments to help with an edifying experiment.

Duh!  This makes total sense to me now.  All I was doing was charging up a capacitor (me) and discharging it into the cfl.  This allowed the static electricity to no longer remain static.  Sorry, I never thought of it that way...I just knew that it worked and he was wrong...well sort of.

Bill

Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Partnered Output Coils - Free Energy
« Reply #4934 on: July 19, 2015, 08:03:36 PM »
Maybe my past experiments can help here.

I had found in my mostly magnet motor design that I could increase an electromagnet pull force by adding PM.

I started with a small model that could pull 250 grams on the scale with a power input of 1/2 a watt. So I built a bigger model and could pull 500 grams with the same 1/2 watt input. So then I built a super model that could pull 2,500 grams with the same 1/2 watt input power.

Do we remember what we learned from this?

Luc

The less you waste, the more you have?

 

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