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Author Topic: Partnered Output Coils - Free Energy  (Read 2293830 times)

Offline Pirate88179

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Re: Partnered Output Coils - Free Energy
« Reply #630 on: January 31, 2015, 06:25:52 AM »
Here's a picture of a "Bucking Coil" tripole just like the glued magnets produce. Maybe there's some "Scaler Potential" emenating from them? One of the testers maight try the "Zenón Bulb" test on the coils?

Damn.  That looks like the figure 8 that Tinman has been talking about in another topic area.

Bill

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Re: Partnered Output Coils - Free Energy
« Reply #630 on: January 31, 2015, 06:25:52 AM »

Offline synchro1

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Re: Partnered Output Coils - Free Energy
« Reply #631 on: January 31, 2015, 06:35:22 AM »
That's what Chris is calling the "Bloch Wall"!

Offline MileHigh

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Re: Partnered Output Coils - Free Energy
« Reply #632 on: January 31, 2015, 06:40:29 AM »
Conrad, TK:

Quote
I found, that at 4.3 MHz there is a maximum output of 3.1 mW


Input analysis at 4.3 MHz Hz (10 V peak to peak sine wave or AC from the Function Generator):

V1eff = 0.9 V , I1eff = V1eff / R1 = 0.9 / 100 = 9 mA , V2eff = 0.9 V, ϴ= 0°

Watt1 = V2eff * I1eff = 8.1 mW

Watt2 = V1eff * I1eff = 8.1 mW

Watt3 = (V2eff - V1eff) * I1eff * cos(ϴ) is ~0 mW (output from H2 + H3 through R2 is ~3.1 mW, measurement not shown)

See the circuit diagram at http://overunity.com/15395/partnered-output-coils-free-energy/msg435839/#msg435839

There is not inductance at this frequency, it seems to be a 4.3 MHz radio wave transmission from coil H1 to the coils H2 + H3. The core is only rated up to 25 kHz, therefore 4.3 MHz can not excite it.

You have discovered OU!

I view this one as a measurement challenge.  For starters, you most likely have to measure all of your AC voltages to three digits of precision, if possible.  The frequency is high so any automatic RMS measurements might be unreliable.  No problem, just take 1/2 of the peak-to-peak voltage and multiply by 0.7071.  The assumption is that you can indeed make a peak-to-peak voltage measurement with your scope at that frequency.  You make the measurements as close as possible to where they are driving the primary coil, etc.  Nor would I trust the "numbers in boxes" here either.  You can turn up the vertical gain of your scope and play with the offset and count vertical divisions.  Or for all I know you have a fancy digital multimeter that can easily make a voltage measurement at 4 MHz.  Likewise for your load resistance, you measure the actual value of the load resistor with your best multimeter to as many digits of precision as possible.

The other thing to do I mentioned before.  Place you scope probe across the H1 primary coil itself, turn up the vertical gain, and measure the voltage like that.  If you can make similar precision measurements on the current and phase shift, then you are making progress.

Using better precision and some wits you should be able to measure the input power.  You already have a huge clue to help you.  You know that there is 3.1 mW going into the load resistor.  The frequency is 4.3 MHz.  Therefore you can compute how much energy per cycle is going into the the load resistor.  I see miliwatts/MHz so that means the energy per cycle is on the order of nanojoules.  Can you actually see nanojoules of energy going into the H1 input coil when you look at a single cycle of the voltage and current waveforms?  I am not sure if your instruments can show you that.  But like I said, you know _exactly_ how many nanojoules per cycle and that should be a big help.

There are some "pro big guns" around here that can give you the real advice on this.  I seriously doubt that it has anything to do with radio wave transmission.  I am just an amateur speculating.

MileHigh

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Re: Partnered Output Coils - Free Energy
« Reply #632 on: January 31, 2015, 06:40:29 AM »
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Offline synchro1

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Re: Partnered Output Coils - Free Energy
« Reply #633 on: January 31, 2015, 06:52:51 AM »
My question is; Might it be posible to spin "Balance Magnets" at 7.83 hz like Jerry Bayles does with his "Chiral Disks" from the "A" vector magnet wave that dosen't curl but projects outward toward infinity from the "Joint" between the "Bucking Coils"? Standing wave resonance between the coils and the Shumann cavity is easy enough to understand.

Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Partnered Output Coils - Free Energy
« Reply #634 on: January 31, 2015, 07:05:46 AM »
I am not sure I follow you because I see scope grounds connected to the function generator ground.  The bucking coil secondary is fully isolated.  So how can you get a connection between the input and output coils?   Note that I suggested to leave the probes in place.  Then use a battery-powered hand-held digital multimeter to measure the RMS voltage across the load resistor.  I was not specific and did not state "battery-powered hand-held digital multimeter" so I apologize if that caused any confusion.
If you are scoping across the output coils, that is, across the load resistor, or across an inline current viewing resistor, your probe is connected to one output wire and the reference is connected to the other one. That is, the reference is no longer connected to the same place as the FG "ground" on the input side. Right? So if the FG is not fully isolated, as most aren't, you have a groundloop right there already, connecting the input to the output through the probe reference and the instrument grounds.
Quote

I have a question for you.  I confess I have always been foggy on ground loops.  Is the function generator ground connected to the "third prong" ground or is it connected to the AC neutral line?  Same question for the scope, "third prong" or AC neutral line?

To the third prong ground line. It should _not_ be connected to the AC neutral inside the FG or scope! Should there be a wiring fault in the house wiring this would cause instant disaster when you plug the  instrument in if it was connected that way, I think. NONE of my instruments are connected that way, as I have just confirmed with a continuity checker and by crawling around in the dust looking for all the line cords! (HP180a scope, Tek 2213a scope, Philips counter, F43 function generator, Link pc-DSO with its dedicated IBM 600e laptop). The Link's probe references are connected back through the parallel port ground to the laptop's chassis ground, but the laptop PS is isolated and that connection doesn't make it to any of the three prongs of the power supply line cord.

You have to be careful about the FG "ground" or BNC shield connection though. SOME FG's, like my F43, have BNC jacks that are indeed isolated from the instrument's chassis and the instrument can be "isolated" by a rear or front panel switch, so that the shield "grounds" aren't grounded but are fully isolated. The chassis itself is permanently connected to the third pin of the line cord but the circuit board "ground" and BNC shields are connected to this through the isolation switch. Of course as soon as you use a BNC patch cord to connect the instrument to a non-isolated scope or frequency counter, this overrides the isolation switch disconnect and re-grounds the instrument's BNC shields. This is one reason why I do not refer to Function Generator shield leads as "grounds" or "negative", rather I call the outputs "Black" (shield) and "Red" (inner wire) , since the shields may or may not be grounded and either output wire could be positive or negative, depending on the waveform and offset setting.

Quote
  If you look at the OUR thread, Verpies said this to Itsu:

Quote
The Owon is still grounded through the mains neutral wire.
If you want to have a truly ungrounded scope then you must use a 1:1 mains isolation transformer.


That kind of "shocked" me.  I thought everything was grounded via the third prong.   It also suggests a nightmare.   What if your house wiring is old and you don't have polarized wall sockets.  You use those "third prong bypass" thingies.  Then one piece of equipment could in theory be grounded to the AC neutral and another piece of equipment be grounded to the AC hot.  Even if you have modern wiring it still would be possible to encounter that situation.  You know how a few electric guitar players have been electrocuted...
Exactly! Surely this Owon's BNC shields must be checked with a continuity tester for continuity to the third pin or the other pins of the line cord plug. Or perhaps Verpies means something other than what we are talking about....
Quote
My real question, going back to Conrad's setup.  The function generator ground and the scope grounds are tied to one point.  I am going to assume that's a "third prong" tie point.   So you have the scope with it's own power cable snaking a ground wire to the electrical socket ground.  And you have the function generator with it's own power cable snaking a ground to another electrical socket.  Doesn't that set up a ground loop right there?  Can't that generate hum?
Yes, and yes. Not the kind of groundloop I'm worried about, exactly, which is created when the scope probe references and the FG "black" are connected to different points in the circuit under test.
I avoid the kind of groundloop you mean here by connecting all my instruments through a power strip to the same outlet.
Quote
I have a related question, like I said I am foggy on this.  Inside the scope and the function generator, is there a tie point that connects the AC neutral to the third-prong ground? 
NO, not on any instrument that I know about. Certainly not on _any_ of mine, from the old Tek RM503 onward. The third prong is connected to the _chassis_ which of course is connected (usually) to the BNC shields and hence to the probe references, unless one has an isolatable FG like my F43 or a fully isolated scope like the Fluke ScopeMeters. In which case the "neutral" still is NOT connected to the chassis and/or the probe BNC shields.
Quote
I am so bloody confused with this stuff.

MileHigh

No, I don't think you are, unless I am confused too, which is always a possibility. Verpies is right that to insure full isolation you need an isolation transformer, but NOT because the probe references and instrument chassis is connected to line "neutral" !! They aren't! If they are, as you have pointed out this can be _very dangerous_ both to the instrument and to whatever you are scoping, as well as to your life!

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Partnered Output Coils - Free Energy
« Reply #634 on: January 31, 2015, 07:05:46 AM »
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Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Partnered Output Coils - Free Energy
« Reply #635 on: January 31, 2015, 07:07:48 AM »
That's what Chris is calling the "Bloch Wall"!
For once we agree. And that is the closest thing to a "Bloch wall" that anybody will actually get, where two alike poles are in close proximity.

Offline MileHigh

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Re: Partnered Output Coils - Free Energy
« Reply #636 on: January 31, 2015, 07:12:37 AM »
The tripole link:  http://jnaudin.free.fr/html/tripole.htm

There is a lot of mumbo jumbo talk on that page.  I marked up his sketch.  Indeed, it's just a clockwise coil facing a counter-clockwise coil.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Partnered Output Coils - Free Energy
« Reply #636 on: January 31, 2015, 07:12:37 AM »
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Offline Void

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Re: Partnered Output Coils - Free Energy
« Reply #637 on: January 31, 2015, 07:21:38 AM »
I have come up with a transformer winding arrangement that, based on the measurements anyway, is measuring as an efficiency greater than 100%.
The power levels are so small that measurement error tolerances are probably fairly significant here however.
I will need to come up with a higher voltage sine wave generator driver to test at higher power levels.

I am not claiming that the transformer really is over unity, but I am pretty sure that the measurements are about as best as
could be done, given the low signal levels and the equipment I have available. Maybe some measurement improvements can be made.
I am attaching a circuit layout diagram with arrows drawn on it showing where I connected in the scope probes.
The arrow heads show where the scope probe connections were made.
I have a two channel scope, so I made the input voltage and current measurements first, and then moved the two
scope probes over and measured the output voltage and current. No noticeable change in LED brightness occurred when I moved the two scope probes over to the output.
I used the data sample logging feature of my DSO to save the waveform sample data to USB, (20,480 samples per waveform) and then used
a spreadsheet to calculate the instantaneous power for each voltage and current data set, and then took the average of the calculated
instantaneous power values to get the average power.
Channel 1 = Yellow = Voltage waveforms (set to x10)
Channel 2 = Blue = Current waveforms. (set to x1)
Current is measured across a 1 ohm, 2W carbon film current sensing resistor, 5% tolerance (all I have available right now).

Transformer is just a ferrite toroid with my special winding arrangement on it. I am not using bucking coils in this arrangement.
This is all I will say about the transformer windings for the time being at least. Just wanted to show that it is apparently possible to
wind a transformer in such a way that if all the phases and reactance and back EMF and what have you are balanced just right, it appears
you can get a current cancelling effect on the transformer primary winding, causing the input current to be quite small, while still
being able to deliver some measureable power to a load. Again, I am not claiming that this is over unity. I am just reporting the measurement
numbers as they came out, and how it appears the transformer may be working.  ;)

My load for this test was two back to back jumbo white LEDs. I haven't tried with just a pure resistive load yet,
so I am not sure if that will give the same results. I may well have to do retuning to try to get the same sort of input
current cancelling effect on the primary, and I am not sure yet if I will be able to do it with a different load. I may
have just got lucky with the LEDs, or maybe the LEDs play a role in being able to get this sort of result. Not sure yet... :)
Anyway, just wanted to show an example of some of the interesting effects you can get when playing around with different
types of transformer winding arrangements. I will need to try this same sort of test at higher power levels to see if I can
get this same sort of effect at higher power, or if this effect was just some oddity due to having very small signal levels. :)

Input power calculated as: 199.3uW
Output power calculated as: 1.231 mW
Efficiency = 1.231mW / 199.3uW = 6.177 --> 617.7%  (Again, yes I know the signal levels are too small to be able to draw any conclusions)
These are just what the measurements showed. No claims are implied or being made beyond reporting the numbers.  :D
Rude or nasty replies will be ignored.  8)

All the best...

Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Partnered Output Coils - Free Energy
« Reply #638 on: January 31, 2015, 07:42:14 AM »
@Void:
Nice work. I'd like to know if the data dumps to the spreadsheet look any different if you use the same vertical scale on CH1 for both input and output measurements.


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Re: Partnered Output Coils - Free Energy
« Reply #638 on: January 31, 2015, 07:42:14 AM »
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Offline MileHigh

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Re: Partnered Output Coils - Free Energy
« Reply #639 on: January 31, 2015, 07:50:29 AM »
TK:

Thanks for your long reply, it was very informative.  I just want to zero in on the point below and make a comment or two:

Quote
I have a related question, like I said I am foggy on this.  Inside the scope and the function generator, is there a tie point that connects the AC neutral to the third-prong ground?

NO, not on any instrument that I know about. Certainly not on _any_ of mine, from the old Tek RM503 onward. The third prong is connected to the _chassis_ which of course is connected (usually) to the BNC shields and hence to the probe references, unless one has an isolatable FG like my F43 or a fully isolated scope like the Fluke ScopeMeters. In which case the "neutral" still is NOT connected to the chassis and/or the probe BNC shields.

Okay so that would imply that _some_ of the electronics inside a standard analog scope have to be running off of an isolation transformer, no?

The logic is this:   The scope probes are grounded to the third prong.  Therefore the input amps inside the scope have to be able to "understand" a potential difference between the third-prong ground and the signal lead.  The input amps need power also.  That power must be referenced to the third-prong ground.  Ergo, there must be an isolation transformer inside the scope to convert <neutral - hot> AC power into <third-prong - internal-power> to power the input amps and other things.

Think about a standard analog scope.  The signal input amps and the vertical amp that deflects the electron beam have to have a common voltage reference, which would be the third-prong ground.  So I am assuming that a full analog scope that ostensibly is not isolated, has to have at least one smalish isolation transformer in it so that some of the guts can operate relative to the third-prong ground reference.

I am assuming (I stopped looking at schematics years ago) that it is somewhat simpler for digital scopes these days.  Only the on-board A/D converters need to function relative to the third-prong ground reference.  Hence, a very small isolation transformer is needed.   To bridge the communications between the precision A/D and the display frame buffer, they probably use an optical interconnect.  So the main guts of a digital scope are powered from <neutral - hot> and the acquisition data link is optical.

I am just assUming

MileHigh

Offline John.K1

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Re: Partnered Output Coils - Free Energy
« Reply #640 on: January 31, 2015, 08:07:44 AM »
Hi Void. You say U got COP >6? That's candidade for self runner ;)
Why to bother with measurements? My opinion is - there is no right measurement. Any connected device will interfer with the cuircuit especially when working with HF. Only SOLID prove of OU is to loop it. ;)

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Re: Partnered Output Coils - Free Energy
« Reply #640 on: January 31, 2015, 08:07:44 AM »
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Offline MarkE

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Re: Partnered Output Coils - Free Energy
« Reply #641 on: January 31, 2015, 08:23:32 AM »
I have come up with a transformer winding arrangement that, based on the measurements anyway, is measuring as an efficiency greater than 100%.
The power levels are so small that measurement error tolerances are probably fairly significant here however.
I will need to come up with a higher voltage sine wave generator driver to test at higher power levels.

I am not claiming that the transformer really is over unity, but I am pretty sure that the measurements are about as best as
could be done, given the low signal levels and the equipment I have available. Maybe some measurement improvements can be made.
I am attaching a circuit layout diagram with arrows drawn on it showing where I connected in the scope probes.
The arrow heads show where the scope probe connections were made.
I have a two channel scope, so I made the input voltage and current measurements first, and then moved the two
scope probes over and measured the output voltage and current. No noticeable change in LED brightness occurred when I moved the two scope probes over to the output.
I used the data sample logging feature of my DSO to save the waveform sample data to USB, (20,480 samples per waveform) and then used
a spreadsheet to calculate the instantaneous power for each voltage and current data set, and then took the average of the calculated
instantaneous power values to get the average power.
Channel 1 = Yellow = Voltage waveforms (set to x10)
Channel 2 = Blue = Current waveforms. (set to x1)
Current is measured across a 1 ohm, 2W carbon film current sensing resistor, 5% tolerance (all I have available right now).

Transformer is just a ferrite toroid with my special winding arrangement on it. I am not using bucking coils in this arrangement.
This is all I will say about the transformer windings for the time being at least. Just wanted to show that it is apparently possible to
wind a transformer in such a way that if all the phases and reactance and back EMF and what have you are balanced just right, it appears
you can get a current cancelling effect on the transformer primary winding, causing the input current to be quite small, while still
being able to deliver some measureable power to a load. Again, I am not claiming that this is over unity. I am just reporting the measurement
numbers as they came out, and how it appears the transformer may be working.  ;)

My load for this test was two back to back jumbo white LEDs. I haven't tried with just a pure resistive load yet,
so I am not sure if that will give the same results. I may well have to do retuning to try to get the same sort of input
current cancelling effect on the primary, and I am not sure yet if I will be able to do it with a different load. I may
have just got lucky with the LEDs, or maybe the LEDs play a role in being able to get this sort of result. Not sure yet... :)
Anyway, just wanted to show an example of some of the interesting effects you can get when playing around with different
types of transformer winding arrangements. I will need to try this same sort of test at higher power levels to see if I can
get this same sort of effect at higher power, or if this effect was just some oddity due to having very small signal levels. :)

Input power calculated as: 199.3uW
Output power calculated as: 1.231 mW
Efficiency = 1.231mW / 199.3uW = 6.177 --> 617.7%  (Again, yes I know the signal levels are too small to be able to draw any conclusions)
These are just what the measurements showed. No claims are implied or being made beyond reporting the numbers.  :D
Rude or nasty replies will be ignored.  8)

All the best...
Did you calibrate/compensate your CSR gains versus frequency?  A little inductance in a CSR can make for very screwed up measurements.

Offline MileHigh

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Re: Partnered Output Coils - Free Energy
« Reply #642 on: January 31, 2015, 08:27:26 AM »
Void:

Very good first step and nice description and schematic, etc.  So far you are doing a great job of documenting yourself.

I have no direct experience with DSOs and I don't know if you are taking a USB model or a stand-alone DSO.  Nonetheless, let me share a few thoughts with you.  I was going to discuss stitching a perfect integer number of waveform samples together to get accurate average values or simply using the long-term averaging function to get accurate computed average power values but I see something jumping out at me.

It looks like something is amiss with the (presumably) blue input current waveform.  You are driving LEDs, so at the peaks of the input voltage waveform you should see a lot of current, and that is not the case on your capture.  I suggest that you double-check that.

Also, your frequency is rather high.  That can induce phase shifts that just might be different from the "real" phase shift so you have to be careful about that.  In theory, you should get the effect over a wide range of frequencies.  If you don't, that's another thing to ponder.

MileHigh

Offline John.K1

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Re: Partnered Output Coils - Free Energy
« Reply #643 on: January 31, 2015, 08:35:35 AM »
Thinking about that Kunels generator. He says that shielding coil should have the same number of turns and cross sectional area. Why? What that coil else does? Is there just only for shealding? It would be possibly better than to spin between some sandviched disc(Al+Fe shets) with slots in it. Some question- what is really going on in this device? Something is missing there On his picture.

Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Partnered Output Coils - Free Energy
« Reply #644 on: January 31, 2015, 09:06:50 AM »
TK:

Thanks for your long reply, it was very informative.  I just want to zero in on the point below and make a comment or two:

Okay so that would imply that _some_ of the electronics inside a standard analog scope have to be running off of an isolation transformer, no?

The logic is this:   The scope probes are grounded to the third prong.  Therefore the input amps inside the scope have to be able to "understand" a potential difference between the third-prong ground and the signal lead.  The input amps need power also.  That power must be referenced to the third-prong ground.  Ergo, there must be an isolation transformer inside the scope to convert <neutral - hot> AC power into <third-prong - internal-power> to power the input amps and other things.

Think about a standard analog scope.  The signal input amps and the vertical amp that deflects the electron beam have to have a common voltage reference, which would be the third-prong ground.  So I am assuming that a full analog scope that ostensibly is not isolated, has to have at least one smalish isolation transformer in it so that some of the guts can operate relative to the third-prong ground reference.


Here's the portion of the Tek 2213a/2215 schematic that shows the power input, below. Note the "note"! The big transformer that is off the page to the right does the isolation function that you are talking about, if I am understanding your meaning. Note the FWB that makes DC, and the white triangle arrowheads which indicate a circuit "ground" or common that is different from the chassis ground.

Quote
I am assuming (I stopped looking at schematics years ago) that it is somewhat simpler for digital scopes these days.  Only the on-board A/D converters need to function relative to the third-prong ground reference.  Hence, a very small isolation transformer is needed.   To bridge the communications between the precision A/D and the display frame buffer, they probably use an optical interconnect.  So the main guts of a digital scope are powered from <neutral - hot> and the acquisition data link is optical.

I am just assUming

MileHigh

 

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