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Author Topic: Partnered Output Coils - Free Energy  (Read 3500959 times)

conradelektro

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Re: Partnered Output Coils - Free Energy
« Reply #600 on: January 30, 2015, 05:17:44 PM »
I did a careful analysis of the electrical energy (see attached drawing and scope shots)

- Watt1, going from the Function Generator into the whole circuit (coil H1 and resistor R1)

- Watt2, going through the resistor R1 and

- Watt3, going through the coil H1 (primary of the partnered coil).

A person wanting to prove OU in "partnered output coils" would be interested in Watt3 (energy put in through the primary H1).

Note, the resistor R1 (100 Ohm shunt) could be 1 Ohm or even 0.1 Ohm if one uses an Audio Amplifier instead of the Function Generator (in order to send several Watt through primary H1, which I will do soon).


Analysis at 50 Hz (10 V peak to peak sine wave or AC from the Function Generator):

V1eff = 2.3 V , I1eff = V1eff / R1 = 2.3 / 100 = 23 mA , V2eff = 2.3 V, ϴ= 3°

Watt1 = V2eff * I1eff = 53 mW

Watt2 = V1eff * I1eff = 53 mW

Watt3 = (V2eff - V1eff) * I1eff * cos(ϴ) = ~ 0  mW  (coil H1 has no inductance at 50 Hz, 23 mA, needs more Ampere, output from H2 + H3 through R2 is ~ 0 mW, measurement not shown)


Analysis at 1000 Hz (10 V peak to peak sine wave or AC from the Function Generator):

V1eff = 1.5 V , I1eff = V1eff / R1 = 1.5 / 100 = 15 mA , V2eff = 3 V, ϴ= 53°

Watt1 = V2eff * I1eff = 45 mW

Watt2 = V1eff * I1eff = 22,5 mW

Watt3 = (V2eff - V1eff) * I1eff * cos(ϴ) = 1.5 * 15 * 0.6 = 13,5 mW (output from H2 + H3 through R2 is ~1.4 mW, measurement not shown)


Analysis at 2000 Hz (10 V peak to peak sine wave or AC from the Function Generator):

V1eff = 1 V , I1eff = V1eff / R1 = 1 / 100 = 10 mA , V2eff = 3.3 V, ϴ= 68°

Watt1 = V2eff * I1eff = 33 mW

Watt2 = V1eff * I1eff = 10 mW

Watt3 = (V2eff - V1eff) * I1eff * cos(ϴ) = 2.3 * 10 * 0.37 = 8,5 mW (output from H2 + H3 through R2 is ~0.14 mW, measurement not shown)


Remark: In this set up the output is highest (about 1,4 mW) at around 2000 Hz. I know one has to put more Watt (instead of Milliwatt) through the primary of the "partnered output coills". This is just a test to develop a reliable measurement method. A "real test" will be done with an Audio Amplifier instead of the Function Generator. The shunt R1 will be 10 Ohm in order to put around 4 to 8 Watt through the primary H1 of the "partnered output coils. And this measurement method will be used.

Please look at this measurement method and let me know if I did something wrong. The idea is to eventually come up with a reliable and useful measurement method, which we all can accept.

Greetings, Conrad

P.S.: you can see the test set up here http://overunity.com/15395/partnered-output-coils-free-energy/msg435506/#msg435506

John.K1

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Re: Partnered Output Coils - Free Energy
« Reply #601 on: January 30, 2015, 08:08:52 PM »
Well,I have just spend couple hours looking at the Kunel's patent I have made a time ago. Input from my SG through the opto-couple  one IRFP460 Mosfet and 12V car bulb directly to the pulsing (shielding) coil and I have used several ferite  magnets
  Three or four hours no fun at all. Than I have put the cap across the input coil to make it behave as resonate circuit. On the scope shot I could recognize some  artifacts  after the rising edge - not ringing it was like like 5 small SQR waves of the same magnitude)- it's frequency measured around 1.4Mhz and I could see it on output too as a ringing. If that would be on ferite bar I would say it is ferromagnetic resonance. But I have used transformer lamination and I am not sure if that has also some sort of such resonance. Or ,it was ferite magnet itself? Anyway, when I tuned my SG to that frequency, the burst of energy and light made my device dead. And because I am sick of it for today I will investigate the damage tomorrow :)


TinselKoala

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Re: Partnered Output Coils - Free Energy
« Reply #602 on: January 30, 2015, 09:18:47 PM »
Yes, on the lowpass filter, that's very clear in every frequency-sweep comparison, like Itsu's and my own. I see some interesting stuff _below_ the filter's effective cutoff frequency range. It's also interesting when a resonant condition is found.

I'll comment on Conrad's setup after I've had a cup of coffee.


conradelektro

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Re: Partnered Output Coils - Free Energy
« Reply #603 on: January 30, 2015, 09:25:52 PM »
I found, that at 4.3 MHz there is a maximum output of 3.1 mW


Input analysis at 4.3 MHz Hz (10 V peak to peak sine wave or AC from the Function Generator):

V1eff = 0.9 V , I1eff = V1eff / R1 = 0.9 / 100 = 9 mA , V2eff = 0.9 V, ϴ= 0°

Watt1 = V2eff * I1eff = 8.1 mW

Watt2 = V1eff * I1eff = 8.1 mW

Watt3 = (V2eff - V1eff) * I1eff * cos(ϴ) is ~0 mW (output from H2 + H3 through R2 is ~3.1 mW, measurement not shown)

See the circuit diagram at http://overunity.com/15395/partnered-output-coils-free-energy/msg435839/#msg435839

There is not inductance at this frequency, it seems to be a 4.3 MHz radio wave transmission from coil H1 to the coils H2 + H3. The core is only rated up to 25 kHz, therefore 4.3 MHz can not excite it.

Greetings

TinselKoala

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Re: Partnered Output Coils - Free Energy
« Reply #604 on: January 30, 2015, 09:39:00 PM »
Conrad's setup looks good for measuring the input power to the primary coil. But I'm not sure about the "Watt1" (total from FG)  computation since it includes the inductance of the primary coil, not just the purely resistive component across the current-sense resistor. Is there some phase difference to be accounted for there?

The total power in the coil itself, "Watt3", I think is calculated correctly.

Let's please hear MileHigh's analysis of this.  And please STOP dissing MH! He is a strong contributor of constructive criticism and it doesn't matter if he's not actually experimenting at the moment. His knowledge, experience and opinions are very valuable in this discussion.

When Conrad measures the output of the partner coils, does he disconnect the probes completely from the primary side? I'm not sure if this matters, but remember the probe reference leads are likely to be connected together in the scope itself. It would also be good to know if the FG's "black" or ground lead is connected internally and through the mains to the scope probe references. Measuring the input as he has shown, it won't matter if the FG is fully isolated or not, but when measuring the output it might matter.


My own testbed is using a 4.7 ohm precision non-inductive resistor in the place of Conrad's R1, and a 0.47 ohm carbon resistor in series with the R2 100 ohm carbon load resistor for monitoring current on the load (output) side.  I also have the bipolar push-pull current amplifier between the FG and the primary coil. Other than that I'm doing the same thing as Conrad (except I only have 40 turns on the primary, and of course I have the Secret of DPDT so that I can flip the connection polarity of the partnered coil that does not have the primary overwound on it.)

TinselKoala

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Re: Partnered Output Coils - Free Energy
« Reply #605 on: January 30, 2015, 09:45:46 PM »
I found, that at 4.3 MHz there is a maximum output of 3.1 mW


Input analysis at 4.3 MHz Hz (10 V peak to peak sine wave or AC from the Function Generator):

V1eff = 0.9 V , I1eff = V1eff / R1 = 0.9 / 100 = 9 mA , V2eff = 0.9 V, ϴ= 0°

Watt1 = V2eff * I1eff = 8.1 mW

Watt2 = V1eff * I1eff = 8.1 mW

Watt3 = (V2eff - V1eff) * I1eff * cos(ϴ) is ~0 mW (output from H2 + H3 through R2 is ~3.1 mW, measurement not shown)

See the circuit diagram at http://overunity.com/15395/partnered-output-coils-free-energy/msg435839/#msg435839

There is not inductance at this frequency, it seems to be a 4.3 MHz radio wave transmission from coil H1 to the coils H2 + H3. The core is only rated up to 25 kHz, therefore 4.3 MHz can not excite it.

Greetings

Well, congratulations! This is the first measurement I've seen that could even plausibly be interpreted as an "OU" measurement! (even though it isn't really).  But see my concern about the Watt1 calculation mentioned above.

Is this what EMJ is talking about when he says that the M cancels but the E-field is still there?

(Unfortunately my FG tops out at 3MHz, so I would have to use some trickery to get up to that frequency range, plus my inductance is likely a bit lower than Conrad's.)

Good luck reaching these frequencies with an audio amplifier!

conradelektro

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Re: Partnered Output Coils - Free Energy
« Reply #606 on: January 30, 2015, 10:05:36 PM »
Conrad's setup looks good for measuring the input power to the primary coil. But I'm not sure about the "Watt1" (total from FG)  computation since it includes the inductance of the primary coil, not just the purely resistive component across the current-sense resistor. Is there some phase difference to be accounted for there?

I think one has to calculate the total resistance (R1 + impedance of H1) with SQRT(R1*R1 + X*X), but I do know how to calculate the impedance X of H1.

The total power in the coil itself, "Watt3", I think is calculated correctly.

Let's hope so. A mix of resistance (R1) and impedance (H1) is always tricky to calculate.

Let's please hear MileHigh's analysis of this.  And please STOP dissing MH! He is a strong contributor of constructive criticism and it doesn't matter if he's not actually experimenting at the moment. His knowledge, experience and opinions are very valuable in this discussion.

I think that MileHigh shrugs off idiots. One should just forget the psychos. I stopped answering the strange posts.

When Conrad measures the output of the partner coils, does he disconnect the probes completely from the primary side? I'm not sure if this matters, but remember the probe reference leads are likely to be connected together in the scope itself. It would also be good to know if the FG's "black" or ground lead is connected internally and through the mains to the scope probe references. Measuring the input as he has shown, it won't matter if the FG is fully isolated or not, but when measuring the output it might matter.

Yes, the probes are completely disconnected from the input while measuring output and vice versa.

On the input I make sure that the GND of the function generator corresponds with GND of the scope probes.

On the output side it would not matter if one leg of coil (H2 + H3) is connected to GND of the function generator (as long as no scope probe is on the input side).

My own testbed is using a 4.7 ohm precision non-inductive resistor in the place of Conrad's R1, and a 0.47 ohm carbon resistor in series with the R2 100 ohm carbon load resistor for monitoring current on the load (output) side.  I also have the bipolar push-pull current amplifier between the FG and the primary coil. Other than that I'm doing the same thing as Conrad (except I only have 40 turns on the primary, and of course I have the Secret of DPDT so that I can flip the connection polarity of the partnered coil that does not have the primary overwound on it.)

Looking forward to your results. I will switch to the audio amplifier once I am sure about the measurement method. Knowledge about a good measurement method can help all serious experimenters.

Greetings, Conrad

conradelektro

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Re: Partnered Output Coils - Free Energy
« Reply #607 on: January 30, 2015, 10:12:29 PM »
Well, congratulations! This is the first measurement I've seen that could even plausibly be interpreted as an "OU" measurement! (even though it isn't really).  But see my concern about the Watt1 calculation mentioned above.

Is this what EMJ is talking about when he says that the M cancels but the E-field is still there?

(Unfortunately my FG tops out at 3MHz, so I would have to use some trickery to get up to that frequency range, plus my inductance is likely a bit lower than Conrad's.)

Good luck reaching these frequencies with an audio amplifier!

I checked up to 20 MHz (the limit of my FG). The square wave signal limit is 5 MHz. And I could measure with a 4.3 MHz square wave. The output is about 10% higher.

My audio amplifier will only do 40 - 20 000 Hz:
http://www.conrad.at/ce/de/product/117560/Kemo-Verstaerker-Modul-M032N-Baustein-6-16-VDC-Ausgangsleistung-12-W (speaker = Lautsprecheranschluss 4 - 16 Ω, frequency range = Frequenzgang ca. 40 - 20 000 Hz)

So, I will have to use that MOSFET-Driver for higher frequencies.

Greetings, Conrad

MileHigh

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Re: Partnered Output Coils - Free Energy
« Reply #608 on: January 30, 2015, 10:13:29 PM »
Conrad:

Great documentation, showing a circuit, your probe positions, your measurements.  I will get into all of that in another posting.

First thing I want to discuss is to revisit the 'ghost' replicators from the earlier part of the thread that have all seemingly run away.  They never showed schematics, pictures, probe placements, or measurements.  They played this nonsensical game of "experiment by five sentences."  You guys have got to get it through your heads that you simply can't 'experiment' and exchange notes and change configurations purely in text.  You are just doing a dance of the deaf and blind when you do that.  You are talking back and forth to each other and pretending that you are exchanging useful information but in fact you are not.  You are just playing a silly game.  Look at Conrad's presentation as a model to follow for how you should present your own data.  If you are going to do a replication, then don't slightly change your own circuit and pretend it's a replication.  Do a real replication, show real data and stop playing your silly 'text games.'

Okay, I got that off my chest.  Sorry, but I have always hated 'fake experiment talk' and fake replications.  That doesn't advance anything at all.

Itsu did a power-out vs. power-in measurement clip:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=INS_SxpJ-XI

My comments on the clip:

<<<
Itsu, thank you for making the measurement.  I can see how the bucking coil power output is so low that the primary ends up looking more like an inductance instead of the load reflecting back to the primary such that the primary voltage and current would be in phase.

I think it is fair to say that for a normal transformer once the power output to the resistive load attached to the secondary goes above a certain low level threshold, then you will see the primary voltage and current nearly perfectly in phase.  But below that threshold and the transformer primary starts to look mostly like an ordinary inductor.  So the very low power output of the secondary in the bucking configuration is ultimately counter productive.   There is no "COP 1.7 'magic'" in sight.
>>>

To be continued....

MileHigh

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Re: Partnered Output Coils - Free Energy
« Reply #609 on: January 30, 2015, 10:18:46 PM »
What did I learn from Itsu's power measurement clip?

So to me that means that when you have the bucking secondary setup, the more closely matched the two bucking coils are, the less voltage you get across the pair of bucking coils.  This obviously hampers your ability to output power into a load resistor and I discussed that in more detail in an earlier posting.

What I did not realize was that the power output in certain setups can be so low, that it is barely "noticed" by the transformer primary, and by the driving signal source, which in Itsu's case is a signal generator.  The result of that is the transformer primary is effectively not really loaded and therefore to the driving signal source the transformer looks mostly like an inductor.  If it looked like a pure inductor the phase shift between the voltage and the current would be 90 degrees.  In Itsu's case the phase shift is something like 87 degrees.

Do you realize what that means?  It means that the bucking coil transformer is acting like a blocking device not letting any power go to the load resistor.  The more matched the two separate bucking coils are the more there is blocking of the power flow from the power source to the load.  When the bucking coils are perfectly matched then the bucking coil transformer will block 100% of the power from going into the load resistor.

In other words, welcome to Monty Python's Flying Circus.

I suppose if you intentionally mismatch your two bucking coils enough, then you can get some real power flow going, and then the voltage and current on the primary will be in phase, which is what you would expect if you were driving a purely resistive load on the secondary.

How could Chris possibly claim COP 1.7 for this stuff?  It's beyond me.

What are we really doing here?  The answer is that we are intentionally doing a very bad design as per normal design practices, in the hope that we strike some kind of magic pay dirt and and can flash an over unity victory sign.

Sometimes I am just aghast, and this is one of those moments.  I am shaking my head.

I am not suggesting anybody stop their experimentation with this setup.  But please, dear God, when all is said and done, at least be able to state clearly what you learned here.  To be politically incorrect, you will have learned that foolish designs give you miserable results.  No matter what kind of verbage EMJunkie wants to throw at this setup, the truth is the truth.

MileHigh

TinselKoala

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Re: Partnered Output Coils - Free Energy
« Reply #610 on: January 30, 2015, 11:29:02 PM »
What did I learn from Itsu's power measurement clip?

So to me that means that when you have the bucking secondary setup, the more closely matched the two bucking coils are, the less voltage you get across the pair of bucking coils.  This obviously hampers your ability to output power into a load resistor and I discussed that in more detail in an earlier posting.

What I did not realize was that the power output in certain setups can be so low, that it is barely "noticed" by the transformer primary, and by the driving signal source, which in Itsu's case is a signal generator.  The result of that is the transformer primary is effectively not really loaded and therefore to the driving signal source the transformer looks mostly like an inductor.  If it looked like a pure inductor the phase shift between the voltage and the current would be 90 degrees.  In Itsu's case the phase shift is something like 87 degrees.

Do you realize what that means?  It means that the bucking coil transformer is acting like a blocking device not letting any power go to the load resistor.  The more matched the two separate bucking coils are the more there is blocking of the power flow from the power source to the load.  When the bucking coils are perfectly matched then the bucking coil transformer will block 100% of the power from going into the load resistor.
(snip)


Is this what is happening with Conrad's circuit at high frequency? So that the power in the primary seems to be all reactive, giving a "zero" power result, and yet the power measured in the secondary is 3 mW or so?



synchro1

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Re: Partnered Output Coils - Free Energy
« Reply #611 on: January 31, 2015, 04:23:16 AM »
I came across this experiment on "Bucking Magnet Fields" and "Scaler Waves". I found it interesting because it demonstrates that Scaler Waves are emitted from the joint between the magnet faces at certain frequencies. This caused me to reflect on the Jerry Bayles spinning "Chiral Disk" magnet tests. (Chiral=Bucking). The experimenter's lighting a "Zenon tube" just exciting the magnet windings with that DC motor!
        _______
      |\        \
      |  \        \
      |\   \        \
      |  \   \ _______\ S
       \   \  |       |      Obtain two Radio Shack ceramic magnets and
         \   \|_______| N    glue their north pole faces together.
           \  |       | N
             \|_______|
                        S
 

            _______          Wind the magnets with about 50 turns
          |\   \\\  \        of #30 magnet wire.  Wire gauge is not
          |  \  \\\\  \      critical.
          |\   \  \\\\  \
          |  \   \ _\\\\__\
           \   \  |  |||| |
             \   \|__||||_|
               \  |  |||| |
                 \|__||||_|
                     \  |      ________
                     |  |     [ small, ]
                     |   -----[ noisy  ]----------o
                     |        [_motor__]           6v to 12v power supply
                     |
                     |____________________________o

The brush noise from the DC motor provides a pulse signal to the coil,
which modulates the 'colliding' field pattern of the magnets and creates
interesting scalar effects within a narrow pencil-beam pattern which extends
from each face of the magnet out to a few inches.

            _______
          |\   \\\  \
          |  \  \\\\  \
          |\   \  \\\\  \
  <<<<<<<<<<<\   \ _\\\\__\>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> scalar effect comes from the
  <<<<<<<<<<<<<\  |  |||| |>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> joint between magnet faces
             \   \|__||||_|
               \  |  |||| |
                 \|__||||_|
                     \  |
                     |  |
                     |  |

Magluvin

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Re: Partnered Output Coils - Free Energy
« Reply #612 on: January 31, 2015, 04:42:42 AM »
I came across this experiment on "Bucking Magnet Fields" and "Scaler Waves". I found it interesting because it demonstrates that Scaler Waves are emitted from the joint between the magnet faces at certain frequencies. This caused me to reflect on the Jerry Bayles spinning "Chiral Disk" magnet tests. (Chiral=Bucking).
        _______
      |\        \
      |  \        \
      |\   \        \
      |  \   \ _______\ S
       \   \  |       |      Obtain two Radio Shack ceramic magnets and
         \   \|_______| N    glue their north pole faces together.
           \  |       | N
             \|_______|
                        S
 

            _______          Wind the magnets with about 50 turns
          |\   \\\  \        of #30 magnet wire.  Wire gauge is not
          |  \  \\\\  \      critical.
          |\   \  \\\\  \
          |  \   \ _\\\\__\
           \   \  |  |||| |
             \   \|__||||_|
               \  |  |||| |
                 \|__||||_|
                     \  |      ________
                     |  |     [ small, ]
                     |   -----[ noisy  ]----------o
                     |        [_motor__]           6v to 12v power supply
                     |
                     |____________________________o

The brush noise from the DC motor provides a pulse signal to the coil,
which modulates the 'colliding' field pattern of the magnets and creates
interesting scalar effects within a narrow pencil-beam pattern which extends
from each face of the magnet out to a few inches.

            _______
          |\   \\\  \
          |  \  \\\\  \
          |\   \  \\\\  \
  <<<<<<<<<<<\   \ _\\\\__\>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> scalar effect comes from the
  <<<<<<<<<<<<<\  |  |||| |>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> joint between magnet faces
             \   \|__||||_|
               \  |  |||| |
                 \|__||||_|
                     \  |
                     |  |
                     |  |

Pretty neat.  Where did you find this idea?

Mags

MileHigh

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Re: Partnered Output Coils - Free Energy
« Reply #613 on: January 31, 2015, 04:44:38 AM »
Conrad, TK:

Great reporting from Conrad, and I think his measurement method is sound.  But of course I have suggestions and comments.  I will tell you up front that I am at a disadvantage to you guys.  I don't really have any "feel" and my "touch skills" for this stuff are long gone.  When did I really and truly play with this kind of stuff?  In my Electronics I, II, and III labs in 1980-82.  There was a preliminary course called Basic Circuit Analysis and there was another course called Pulse Circuits and a bunch of other courses.  When I worked in this field I used a scope primarily to check the integrity of digital signals on circuit boards, not to play with coils and transformers.

Here is an example of my limitations:  It looks like for Conrad's first test at 50 Hz the reactance of the 60-turn H1 coil is almost nil and so it looks like a dead short at 50 Hz.  But I look at the picture and see that it is wound on a ferrite closed-loop core so I am saying to myself that doesn't seem to make sense.  My problem is that I don't have a "feel" for that.  However, I am pretty good as suggesting lines of investigation and supplementary tests.  If I was Conrad I would like to resolve that issue.  I would just measure the inductance of the H1 coil with everything else disconnected from the transformer.  I don't know if you have an inductance meter or if you can set up a test to measure inductance with your scope, but it would be nice to know that.

If it turns out that the inductance of H1 is indeed very low such that it is almost a dead short at 50 Hz, then now we know.  If it is, then I breathe a sigh of relief because your first round of measurements then seem to make sense.

Before really getting into the meat the measurements, I have a few other important comments.

As I have already mentioned in the case of Itsu, with very closely balanced bucking coils, the output voltage across the pair of bucking coils is very low and that arguably messes a lot of things up which I believe explains the first round of measurements.

So, my suggestion would be to bypass the bucking configuration just to make a "reality check" and make sure that your transformer setup does indeed work fine as a low-power transformer that does easily support some decent power throughput.  The simple way to do that would be to connect your load resistor across only one of the bucking coils.  That should give you a simple 1:3 step-up transformer.  If you get good power throughput results that would also confirm that you have a nice low-reluctance magnetic circuit backbone without any issues there.  You should also see the phase shift between the voltage and the current on the input be very low or zero when driving a load resistor.  You should be able to see something like say 3 watts on the input, and 2.95 watts on the output.  You could also lower the value of the load resistor and verify that the setup draws proportionally more power just like it is supposed to do.

TK, to respond to your question about measuring the power going input H1 coil:   Recall that with a conventional transformer the load on the secondary is reflected on the primary.  So the input coil will not look like a coil any more, it will look like a resistor.  So there is no issue measuring the voltage and the current going into the H1 primary coil.  Even if "something else is happening" there is still no reason that you can't measure the power going into H1 and any possible associated reactance of H1.

So in the next posting I will discuss the measurements.  The quick short and skinny is that it looks to me that the fact that very little power goes into the load resistor makes the input side of the transformer look more like an inductance than a device that is reflecting the load power back to the input.   Hence my suggestion above to just put a load resistor across a single bucking coil and leave the other bucking coil disconnected as a reality check.

MileHigh

synchro1

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Re: Partnered Output Coils - Free Energy
« Reply #614 on: January 31, 2015, 04:47:12 AM »
Pretty neat.  Where did you find this idea?

Mags

@Magluvin,

Check this link out:

http://www.gocs1.com/gocs1/Psionics/SCALARBEAMER.htm