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Author Topic: Partnered Output Coils - Free Energy  (Read 3501423 times)

partzman

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Re: Partnered Output Coils - Free Energy
« Reply #6030 on: November 01, 2015, 03:25:48 PM »
I would like to correct a statement I made in an earlier post regarding "excess" energy in passive circuits.  That term is incorrect, should not have been used, and I apologize for any confusion.

There is no excess or mysterious outside source of energy in the circuit I've disclosed. It is simply the manipulation and use of existing energy within the confines of that circuit as supplied and returned to the source. During this process, one finds the ability to produce real power with the near cancellation of input power from the source. That is my whole point and I've not done a good job in my attempts to explain it as such.

partzman

 

 

Drak

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Re: Partnered Output Coils - Free Energy
« Reply #6031 on: November 01, 2015, 05:21:36 PM »
The method you are trying to understand is in fact radio physics. It is hidden in plain sigh. Please understand that, you would not have to understand how radio works for just using it, right ? So, if somebody who know create attractive and complete but false theory describing and computing all you need to build radio, yet without a single bit of true principle, then you are in situation we are in today. In other words, they let you use a candle but not a laser.

I'm not sure I understand what you are saying here. Are you saying the only way to do anything with reactive "power" is to transmit it through the air?

partzman

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Re: Partnered Output Coils - Free Energy
« Reply #6032 on: November 01, 2015, 08:01:51 PM »
Partzman:

Just giving your description and your schematic and your waveforms a preliminary look I can suggest some potential issues.

The frequency is fairly high, and C1 and C2 are minuscule 4.7 nF caps.  How do you know that your (Ch3 - Ch1) measurement is good?  You are loading down what may be one high impedance signal path (Ch 3), and the frequency is fairly high, and that could potentially throw everything out of whack.

Just a basic simplistic check here ignoring the transformer and just looking at the series LC component:  The current is leading the voltage for the entire circuit, and the phase is nearly 90 degrees.  So it looks like a capacitive load.  Each capacitor is 65 ohms impedance at 520 kHz.  Each inductor is 509 ohms impedance at 520 kHz.  The series resonant frequency would be 186 kHz.  So for a basic series LC circuit with your component values, at 520 kHz it should look like an inductive load.  But it appears to be a capacitive load.  Why is that and is that suggesting that something is amiss?

When the signal generator voltage is zero, the load current gets pinched off.  Do you know why?  I realize that there is a transformer and another current loop in play.  I think the reason for the pinching off of the current should be investigated, just so you know the circuit better.  The more you know the circuit the more you are able to recognize any possible instrumentation errors.

A basic question:  How does the circuit respond as you sweep the frequency?  Perhaps you will detect something that looks strange possibly hinting that your probes are disturbing the circuit too much at higher frequencies.

However, the biggest issue remains:  You observed a COP of 35 and apparently didn't question it.

MileHigh

MH,

The probes used are Tek TPP0500B rated at 500Mhz with 10M impedance and 3.9pfd capacitance. Hardly significant loads for the circuit at the CH1 and CH3 nodes.  Also it is CH1-Ch3 not vice-versa.

One key item you have failed to take note of is the distributed capacitance between L1 and L2 of 7.25nfd. This is the reason for the current lead so nothing amiss here.

The "pinching off" you describe is current reversal due to the complex phasing within the circuit due primarily to the fact we are operating off resonance at 520khz.

When the circuit frequency is raised and approaches the circuit's fo (which is different than your calculations BTW), the real resistive power output increases and the input power goes negative for infinite COP.

I am used to producing apparent COPs on the bench ranging from <1 to infinity so a COP=35 is not that shocking. Only if one has conducted the experiments themselves would they understand the difficulties to produce a stand alone device from this point forward. IMO, as Tinman's device progresses he will begin to see this as well.

partzman

MileHigh

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Re: Partnered Output Coils - Free Energy
« Reply #6033 on: November 01, 2015, 08:34:03 PM »
Partzman:

Quote
I am used to producing apparent COPs on the bench ranging from <1 to infinity so a COP=35 is not that shocking.

Unfortunately, what you've got going is a unfortunate mix of decent knowledge and self-delusion and hubris.  All that you have to do is apply yourself and get more serious and your magic over unity COPs will evaporate into nothingness.

I am not up to walking you through a circuit analysis and discovering your errors, but I can assure you that they are there.  It's just like the negative resistance conclusion for Tinman's circuit, it's just another failure to look at everything with a critical eye and double check and triple check everything.

Even though I am not up to doing this kind of circuit analysis anymore, I do know electronics and I know when someone is deluding themselves.  You should take my advice and put all of your conclusions in check.  For example, if you simulate your circuits with pSpice and drop power monitoring probes in the circuit, you are not going to find over unity.   Then you can use the pSpice simulation to help you find out where you went wrong.

MileHigh

EMJunkie

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Re: Partnered Output Coils - Free Energy
« Reply #6034 on: November 01, 2015, 09:51:10 PM »
Chris,
Thank you for your comment.  I will explain the scope shots. 

The first scope pix shows the Math measurement of the voltage across Rl using CH1-CH3 as the differential means. This quantity is then squared, divided by 958, and the instantaneous value displayed by the red Math trace over time. The Math calculation is then integrated between the vertical cursors and displayed as the mean or average that is seen as 105.3mvv or 105.3mw.  To roughly confirm this by analyzing the traces, one can simply subtract the peak of CH2 (~8) from the peak of CH1 (~22), and even though they are slightly out of phase with some distortion, take the difference (14) and convert to rms (9.9) to arrive at ~ 102mw (9.9^2/958).

The second scope shot uses the Math channel to perform the product of CH1 (input source voltage) times CH2 (voltage across Rs representing the current taken from the source voltage). The red Math trace displays the instantaneous value over time of this product and then this result is integrated over the time interval between the vertical cursors and displayed as a mean value of 2.946mvv or 2.946mw.

The resulting COP = 105.3/2.946 = 35.74.

The reason the math results are in mvv is due to mv measurements being used in the calculations.

partzman



Thanks Partzman! I thought I was reading it wrong, not enough reading in your pdf on my part.

Well, a COP = 35.74 surely is something that should warrant detailed study here as well as Tinman's work!

Again I have attached your pdf and also your Schematic for others.

   Chris Sykes
       hyiq.org

P.S: Most here ignore MileHigh's drivel - Its too painful to keep correcting him all the time.

MileHigh

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Re: Partnered Output Coils - Free Energy
« Reply #6035 on: November 01, 2015, 09:59:58 PM »
Nope, I am absolutely real and honest, and I am pretty sure that the vast majority of readers are aware of that.  I noticed that there has not been one peep out of you when it comes to trying to analyze and understand Tinman's double toroidal transformer.  That speaks volumes.

EMJunkie

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Re: Partnered Output Coils - Free Energy
« Reply #6036 on: November 01, 2015, 10:05:54 PM »
MH,

The probes used are Tek TPP0500B rated at 500Mhz with 10M impedance and 3.9pfd capacitance. Hardly significant loads for the circuit at the CH1 and CH3 nodes.  Also it is CH1-Ch3 not vice-versa.

One key item you have failed to take note of is the distributed capacitance between L1 and L2 of 7.25nfd. This is the reason for the current lead so nothing amiss here.

The "pinching off" you describe is current reversal due to the complex phasing within the circuit due primarily to the fact we are operating off resonance at 520khz.

When the circuit frequency is raised and approaches the circuit's fo (which is different than your calculations BTW), the real resistive power output increases and the input power goes negative for infinite COP.

I am used to producing apparent COPs on the bench ranging from <1 to infinity so a COP=35 is not that shocking. Only if one has conducted the experiments themselves would they understand the difficulties to produce a stand alone device from this point forward. IMO, as Tinman's device progresses he will begin to see this as well.

partzman


Hare Hare!!! Nicely stated!

Yes, the battle is already won and victory a sweet success for those that do the experiment and do the work!!!

Sorrow and Battle wounds for those that have not!!!

MileHigh, you just might have to move from Imaginary to Real to see if what you talk about is not going to loose the battle for you! A few simple experiments may be beneficial for you!!!

   Chris Sykes
       hyiq.org

EMJunkie

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Re: Partnered Output Coils - Free Energy
« Reply #6037 on: November 01, 2015, 10:14:56 PM »
Nope, I am absolutely real and honest, and I am pretty sure that the vast majority of readers are aware of that.  I noticed that there has not been one peep out of you when it comes to trying to analyze and understand Tinman's double toroidal transformer.  That speaks volumes.


MileHigh, you call what you're doing "analyzing"?

Really?

   Chris Sykes
       hyiq.org

MileHigh

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Re: Partnered Output Coils - Free Energy
« Reply #6038 on: November 01, 2015, 10:16:51 PM »
You are already in a deep hole, keep on digging.

Pirate88179

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Re: Partnered Output Coils - Free Energy
« Reply #6039 on: November 01, 2015, 10:23:26 PM »
You are already in a deep hole, keep on digging.

But, MH, Chris has no shovel.  Hard to dig without one.

I, for one, appreciate your bringing common sense and proven electronics knowledge to this discussion.  I am sure many others do as well.  I am also sure that some do not appreciate it.  Oh well, can't please everyone.

Bill

EMJunkie

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Re: Partnered Output Coils - Free Energy
« Reply #6040 on: November 01, 2015, 10:26:37 PM »
You are already in a deep hole, keep on digging.

The only Hole I have dug, Milehigh, is for you old Mate!

I am not in it, at all, it is you, your errors, and your assumptions, lack of understanding, lack of willingness to understand, and also your Arrogance toward others here.

Sink or swim, it is up to you.

So many people do great work, they deserve all the credit for what they do. A little old bloke with a bad attitude will not stop the masses!!! Especially when someone here keeps proving him to be Wrong!

   Chris Sykes
       hyiq.org

partzman

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Re: Partnered Output Coils - Free Energy
« Reply #6041 on: November 01, 2015, 10:56:59 PM »
Partzman:

Unfortunately, what you've got going is a unfortunate mix of decent knowledge and self-delusion and hubris.  All that you have to do is apply yourself and get more serious and your magic over unity COPs will evaporate into nothingness.

I am not up to walking you through a circuit analysis and discovering your errors, but I can assure you that they are there.  It's just like the negative resistance conclusion for Tinman's circuit, it's just another failure to look at everything with a critical eye and double check and triple check everything.

Even though I am not up to doing this kind of circuit analysis anymore, I do know electronics and I know when someone is deluding themselves.  You should take my advice and put all of your conclusions in check.  For example, if you simulate your circuits with pSpice and drop power monitoring probes in the circuit, you are not going to find over unity.   Then you can use the pSpice simulation to help you find out where you went wrong.

MileHigh

MH,

First let me state that I have not been able to simulate these types of circuits successfully.  I mean they not only produce COP<1, but they don't replicate the wave forms and phasing correctly. IMO, this is due to inaccurate modeling of the transformer topologies.

Now, before you jump to conclusions from that statement, let me state that I have successfully modeled circuits including non-linear transformers using the Chan model, non-linear solar cells/panels, various and sundry parametric devices including non-linear mosfet capacitances, etc, so I consider myself somewhat capable using simulations.

Regarding my self-delusions, etc, I am always more than willing to have my mistakes pointed out to me whether it be by you or anyone else. I may not like it but I will admit my mistakes because after all, I'm just a 74 year old high school drop out so what do I know!

One more thing and this may upset some here, but don't spend too much time trying to analyze the circuit diagram for it is not completely accurate. However, the waveforms are. If anyone wishes to do any circuit analysis or attempt replication, PM me.

partzman

EMJunkie

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Re: Partnered Output Coils - Free Energy
« Reply #6042 on: November 01, 2015, 11:19:30 PM »
MH,

First let me state that I have not been able to simulate these types of circuits successfully.  I mean they not only produce COP<1, but they don't replicate the wave forms and phasing correctly. IMO, this is due to inaccurate modeling of the transformer topologies.

Now, before you jump to conclusions from that statement, let me state that I have successfully modeled circuits including non-linear transformers using the Chan model, non-linear solar cells/panels, various and sundry parametric devices including non-linear mosfet capacitances, etc, so I consider myself somewhat capable using simulations.

Regarding my self-delusions, etc, I am always more than willing to have my mistakes pointed out to me whether it be by you or anyone else. I may not like it but I will admit my mistakes because after all, I'm just a 74 year old high school drop out so what do I know!

One more thing and this may upset some here, but don't spend too much time trying to analyze the circuit diagram for it is not completely accurate. However, the waveforms are. If anyone wishes to do any circuit analysis or attempt replication, PM me.

partzman


@Partzman - I will do a replication of your Circuit.

I am certainly not one to shy away from something, not afraid of a little hard work! I know others here will pick at every little thing they possibly can pick at, to try to discredit what in the end can not be discredited. But I am up for it!

   Chris Sykes
       hyiq.org

P.S: It seems it is very similar to another circuit I have replicated?

Interesting read on Page 8 about this Configuration

tinman

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Re: Partnered Output Coils - Free Energy
« Reply #6043 on: November 02, 2015, 12:05:56 AM »
Partzman:

Unfortunately, what you've got going is a unfortunate mix of decent knowledge and self-delusion and hubris.  All that you have to do is apply yourself and get more serious and your magic over unity COPs will evaporate into nothingness.

I am not up to walking you through a circuit analysis and discovering your errors, but I can assure you that they are there. 

Even though I am not up to doing this kind of circuit analysis anymore, I do know electronics and I know when someone is deluding themselves.  You should take my advice and put all of your conclusions in check.  For example, if you simulate your circuits with pSpice and drop power monitoring probes in the circuit, you are not going to find over unity.   Then you can use the pSpice simulation to help you find out where you went wrong.

MileHigh

Quote
It's just like the negative resistance conclusion for Tinman's circuit, it's just another failure to look at everything with a critical eye and double check and triple check everything.

Will you be so quick to dismiss Smudge's findings also ?.


partzman

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Re: Partnered Output Coils - Free Energy
« Reply #6044 on: November 02, 2015, 02:41:10 AM »
Thanks to all of you expressing an interest in replicating my circuit. I have decided to disclose the correct info which is in the attached pdf below. It is embarrassing to admit but it was an honest documentation mistake on my part due to the many circuits I work with over the course of time.  The circuit originally shown does work as well but only at frequencies in the 1-3Mhz range utilizing the same coil arrangement with different component values.

I used 15x34 litz as I have it on hand and split it into 7x34 and 8x34 windings for L1 and l2. The object of this construction is to obtain a high inter-winding distributed capacitance and inductance so other winding arrangements should work if they meet this criteria. 

One thing I will add, a FG can be used to drive the circuit with a sine wave and although the power output will be lower, there will still be gain observed.

If you have questions, ask.

partzman