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Author Topic: Partnered Output Coils - Free Energy  (Read 3501333 times)

TinselKoala

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Re: Partnered Output Coils - Free Energy
« Reply #495 on: January 29, 2015, 01:02:51 AM »
TK:

Yes thank you for reminding me about that.  Of course that would be kind of tricky to do and it is "dumb" with no negative feedback.  I believe a big fat MOSFET car audio amplifier is essentially the same thing but it includes the magic of the negative feedback.  So all of the "MOSFET linear region balancing" is hidden inside a black box and you don't have to worry about it.  The differential pair output from the audio amplifier can be a current sourcing and sinking beast that will hold the voltage to whatever the input says the voltage should be.  At least that's my understanding of it.

Also, to be "truer to the spirit of working on the bench" I seem to recall that you posted some nice schematics where a standard op-amp drives a complimentary pair of power transistors to give you a high-current op-amp.  But heck if a $100 car audio amplifier gives you a MOSFET-based 150-watt power servo amplifier (wild guess) that's pretty tempting.

And I will have no stupid snarky comments from Synchro1 please.

MileHigh
Yes, that's right and it's simple to do, thanks for reminding me. The slight complication here is that one does need a bipolar power supply for the op amp and the power transistors. But if you have a dual PSU that can be put in series mode, or use two batteries, that's easy enough to arrange.

I've demonstrated this circuit both driving a motor load (M), and of course driving a coil in the "MescalMotor". I don't know what the maximum frequency response is though, but it will certainly handle the low audio frequencies that seem to be "preferred" here.

The transistors should probably be on heatsinks if you are going for high power thruput. For low power you can use any NPN-PNP pair, just about. I used BC337-25 and BC556 in the MescalMotor coildriver. Or 2n2222a and 2n2907.  The 741 op-amp is common and cheap as the dirt it's made from.

conradelektro

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Re: Partnered Output Coils - Free Energy
« Reply #496 on: January 29, 2015, 01:04:13 AM »
I don't get your usage of the 100-ohm resistor on the function generator side. Shouldn't it just be one ohm or even 1/2 ohm?  In other words just a current sensing/viewing resistor?  The power input to the circuit is the RMS voltage across the 60-turn coil times the RMS current as measured with the voltage across the current sensing resistor.

I do not like to connect my function generator to something without a current limiting resistor. I know it has an internal resistance of 50 Ohm, but I do not want to overload it. Therefore I have chosen a 100 Ohm resistor as a shunt (instead of a 1 Ohm resistor).

This was a first test, just to see if something strange happens at low power.

The real test will be with my mono audio amplifier as I indicated in my last post.


I am making an assumption that at low frequencies the current and voltage will be in phase.  Also, to be a bit more precise, with your existing probe placement, the AC voltage across the 60-turn coil will be the AC voltage measured with channel 2 minus the AC voltage measured with channel 1.  Again, I am assuming a one-ohm or 1/2 ohm current sensing resistor, not a 100-ohm resistor.

Yes, current and voltage (at the input side) were in phase at 50 Hz, but at 1 kHz and higher there was a shift, may be 10 degrees.

How would I measure the shift at the output side, since the Voltage over the load resistor is at the same time the Voltage Drop and the Voltage over the output coil?


You should put component designations on your schematic (R1, R2, L1, L2, etc) to make life easier when discussing your circuit.

Your transformer itself looks great.  Note as a (hopefully) interesting exercise, you can take your analysis one step further because you measured all of the coil resistances.  So you can measure your power dissipation in the coils themselves.  I am "keeping it simple" here and assuming a sine wave excitation waveform from your function generator.   In theory there is nothing to be gained by using a nasty square wave excitation waveform.

Will try to remember component designations in my next diagram.

My next tests will be with sine wave excitation by help of my mono audio amp (12 Watt max).

Thank you for your help, greetings, Conrad

synchro1

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Re: Partnered Output Coils - Free Energy
« Reply #497 on: January 29, 2015, 01:10:24 AM »
Jerry Bayles shows how two balance magnets, fields opposite on a bar and axle, align parallel to the axis of two Chiral magnets, and 90 degrees to the perpendicular on the other side. It would be interesting to see if a pair of balance magnets would behave the same way on either side of the two opposie poles of "Bucking Coils" supplied with DC curent.

TinselKoala

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Re: Partnered Output Coils - Free Energy
« Reply #498 on: January 29, 2015, 01:17:35 AM »
I do not like to connect my function generator to something without a current limiting resistor. I know it has an internal resistance of 50 Ohm, but I do not want to overload it. Therefore I have chosen a 100 Ohm resistor as a shunt (instead of a 1 Ohm resistor).

This was a first test, just to see if something strange happens at low power.

The real test will be with my mono audio amplifier as I indicated in my last post.
Just be sure to always provide a proper impedance to the output of the amplifier to avoid blowing the output transistors.
Quote


Yes, current and voltage (at the input side) were in phase at 50 Hz, but at 1 kHz and higher there was a shift, may be 10 degrees.

How would I measure the shift at the output side, since the Voltage over the load resistor is at the same time the Voltage Drop and the Voltage over the output coil?
The "assumption" is that a resistive load will produce no phase shift between voltage V and current I on the output side. To confirm this, connect a 1R CVR in series with the load resistor. Connect both probe references to the coil side of the CVR, and the "I" probe to the load-CVR connection. The other "V" probe to the other side of the load resistor where it connects back to the coil set. Use the minimum wiring lengths you can arrange, including the probe references, so that you aren't adding inductances to your test setup.
Quote
Will try to remember component designations in my next diagram.

My next tests will be with sine wave excitation by help of my mono audio amp (12 Watt max).

Thank you for your help, greetings, Conrad

MileHigh

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Re: Partnered Output Coils - Free Energy
« Reply #499 on: January 29, 2015, 01:48:28 AM »
Conrad:

Certainly using a 10K trimmer pot will work on the amplifier input.  It looks like that amplifier module has an built-in voltage inverter that takes the power supply input and generates the opposite voltage.  I can't read German so I am assuming this.  So if you connect a +12-volt power supply to the module it generates -12 volts internally.

Going back to using the function generator as the only drive source, I seriously doubt that it can be damaged by driving a low impedance load.  However, do not rely on my advice, if you are curios check with experts like TK, MarkE or Itsu.  I am pretty sure that your function generator has a servo-amplifier output stage that connects in series with a 50-ohm resistor before the signal goes to the outside world.  So the function generator amplifier itself never sees a short if you were to short the output.  i.e.; If you short the output it sees a 50-ohm load.  The real way to destroy the function generator output would be to connect an external high voltage source to the output terminals.

Going back to your input power calculations, I want to emphasize that you were calculating the power going into in the 100-ohm resistor, and not into the 60-turn coil.  So if you wanted to do another function generator test and keep the 100-ohm resistor that would be fine, but you still have to calculate the power going into the 60-turn coil.

MileHigh

MileHigh

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Re: Partnered Output Coils - Free Energy
« Reply #500 on: January 29, 2015, 01:59:32 AM »
This is a shout-out to all of the early replicators.  That includes Skywatcher123 and some others.  Where are you?  It seems to me like when some other replicators get involved you all get shy and run away.  Don't be shy, you should come back and try to do your own replications.

I scolded many of you because you were doing bullshit replications.  You were just taking circuits that you were already familiar with and modifying them slightly and pretending that that they were replications of Chris' circuit.  That's just nonsense.

You can see what is going on right now.   So why don't you come back and get involved?  What you have to do is do a real replication, not the fake pseudo replications that you were doing before.

I challenged you early replicators to discuss how to make proper measurements, and none of you had anything to say.  Now you can see a real discussion going on about making proper measurements, so there is nothing stopping you from getting involved.

I have seen this pattern many times before.  You now have a chance to get involved again but do it right - don't present bullshit fake circuits, present the real circuit and make the real measurements.   You have to measure power-in vs. power out.  If you don't do that then you are faking it and wasting your time.

Cap-Z-ro

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Re: Partnered Output Coils - Free Energy
« Reply #501 on: January 29, 2015, 02:31:23 AM »
This is a shout-out to all of the early replicators.  That includes Skywatcher123 and some others.

Actually, some  more people are looking at this, so this ass clown thought he'd better stir things up again, by trying to bait the early replicators.

Such is the pattern of the paid shill.


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Where are you?

He knows full well they followed Chris to the OUR forum...how you may ask ?

Because they posted their intentions in this thread.


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It seems to me like when some other replicators get involved you all get shy and run away.

They, like Chris were fed up with harassment from the paid idea killers. 


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I scolded many of you because you were doing bullshit replications.

Scolded by a paid ass clown shill, he means.
 

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You were just taking circuits that you were already familiar with and modifying them slightly and pretending that that they were replications of Chris' circuit.  That's just nonsense.

This doosh wouldn't know a replication, because he has never done one.


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You can see what is going on right now.

Yes, I believe just about everyone can now see what this ass clown is all about...turmoil - chaos and flux = distraction.
   

Quote
So why don't you come back and get involved?  What you have to do is do a real replication, not the fake pseudo replications that you were doing before.

This doosh wouldn't know a replication, because he has never done one.

Quote
I challenged you early replicators to discuss how to make proper measurements, and none of you had anything to say.
 

The ass clown will of course let us all know when he invents a gauge to measure magnetism and gravity.


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Now you can see a real discussion going on about making proper measurements, so there is nothing stopping you from getting involved.

The real discussion is likely at OUR.


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I have seen this pattern many times before.


He sure has.


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You have to measure power-in vs. power out.  If you don't do that then you are faking it and wasting your time.

He, above all about wasting time...everyone else's, that is.

Regards...


MileHigh

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Re: Partnered Output Coils - Free Energy
« Reply #502 on: January 29, 2015, 02:44:10 AM »
Chris:

Quote
I certainly do not want to come to this forum and Criticise others, but if I may say, MileHigh, does not understand, what is going on in these devices! Although he is a smart guy, if I may suggest, that what he says is taken with just as much weight in the other direction   I am sorry and I hope this is not taken the wrong way

Yes, you are in spin mode.  You have been in spin mode almost the whole time starting with the discussion about the non-existent Bloch wall.  I know that you said that you have dedicated many years of your life to this.  The problem is that if the foundation is no good, then no matter how 'slick and cool' the house may appear to be, the house if going to collapse sooner rather than later.  There is no point in dedicating yourself to something if you are going in the wrong direction.

You are just treading water right now, and it's going to grimmer and grimmer as more results come in.  I am no super expert, I don't even really and truly like electronics.  But this is my former profession and you can't just pretend that "you know better."  It looks like most of your research has been from questionable GIGO sources.  The real truth is more important than your ego and likewise it's more important than my ego.  "Bucking coils" in a transformer is just one of many nonsensical electronic circuit designs that you see on the forums.  Reality and the truth will prevail.  Did you read my posting about the issue of having a gap in the core?  Similar issues are at play for your entire proposition.

MileHigh

MileHigh

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Re: Partnered Output Coils - Free Energy
« Reply #503 on: January 29, 2015, 02:53:25 AM »
Captain Zero:

The usual hollow, unproductive, miserable, untruthful, sourpuss crap from you.  I bet you say that to impress the boys.

I think you need to sit on this.  That will shut you up.

MileHigh

MileHigh

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Re: Partnered Output Coils - Free Energy
« Reply #504 on: January 29, 2015, 03:34:21 AM »
Groundloop:

Quote
I have made my two Partnered Output Coils. I did try to make two identical coils,
but it was difficult. One coil is 91.85mH and the other is 91.94mH (Without any
core in them.) I did wind one coil CW and the other coil CCW and did mark the
winding direction with an arrow symbol. Now the question, what way must I
put the coils onto the core to get the correct canceling of the magnetic field?

There is an important issue I am going to discuss here.   I am quoting your text, just as an example.  My comments below are not directed at you personally.

Just the fact that Chris and many others will say, "wind one coil clockwise and wind the other coil counter-clockwise" shows the faults and pitfalls with trying to educate yourself about electronics and looking in the wrong places.  I am sure that Chris and many others have been saying this "CW" vs. "CCW" winding stuff for years.

If you said this to someone seasoned and experienced in electronics they would give you a funny look for sure.  It's because clockwise vs. counter-clockwise is almost meaningless.  To state the requirement to "wind your coils in the correct direction" is on one level a ridiculous statement.

Here is why:

Wind Coil A clockwise and wind Coil B clockwise to get bucking coils.

That is equal to:

Wind Coil A clockwise and wind Coil B clockwise.  Swap the two wires on Coil B.   Now you have bucking coils.

That is equal to:

Wind Coil A clockwise and wind Coil B clockwise.  Swap the two wires on Coil A.   Now you have bucking coils.

That is equal to:

Wind Coil A counter-clockwise and wind Coil B counter-clockwise.  Swap the two wires on Coil A.   Now you have bucking coils.

That is equal to:

Wind Coil A counter-clockwise and wind Coil B counter-clockwise.  Swap the two wires on Coil B.   Now you have bucking coils.


So, there is nothing explicitly wrong with giving instructions on which direction to wind coils.  What is wrong is not realizing that it is almost a moot point.

I have seen people post, "I wound my coil the wrong way!  Dammit!  Now I am going to have to unwind my coil and rewind it properly!"

If you have been playing with electronics and you never realized this then that is clearly telling you to stop getting your electronics knowledge from the forums.  Stop for two months and go to a book store and buy a few "Beginner's electronics" books and read them first.

MileHigh

Pirate88179

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Re: Partnered Output Coils - Free Energy
« Reply #505 on: January 29, 2015, 03:40:26 AM »
MH:

But what if I wound coil A in a clockwise manner for the first half, (say 500 turns) and then wound the rest of it counter-clockwise? (500 turns also)

What would I have then?

Oh, an empty spool....no coil...never mind.

Bill

MileHigh

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Re: Partnered Output Coils - Free Energy
« Reply #506 on: January 29, 2015, 03:50:25 AM »
Quote
But what if I wound coil A in a clockwise manner for the first half, (say 500 turns) and then wound the rest of it counter-clockwise? (500 turns also)

Then you are in Chris territory.  In theory you could get near total self-cancellation.  No self-inductance, no magnetic field generation, just a long length of wire on a single spool that acts like a glorified resistor.

Cap-Z-ro

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Re: Partnered Output Coils - Free Energy
« Reply #507 on: January 29, 2015, 03:50:58 AM »
i know enough to stay out of the way when people are working...but then I am not here to disrupt their work like the paid shills and their unwitting witless lap dog arse kisser.

Regards...


synchro1

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Re: Partnered Output Coils - Free Energy
« Reply #508 on: January 29, 2015, 04:13:45 AM »
Hi Synchro, I didn't get it.  Does that means that you magnetize the ferrite toroid beneath the coils?  If i good understand, both poles are actually sitting on the ferrite- so which pole you neutralize?  8)

@John.K1,

Here's two quotes from Marco. I believe the two standing toroid magnets are magnetized diametrically or from side to side because he says they're in repulsion. This would compare to a "Bucking Coil" configuration. The toroid magnet closest to the ferrite ring wraped with a single wire coil would attract either side of the toroid magnet when the coil is not charged. When that magnet starts rocking from the neutralizing pulse, it both attracts and repels it's twin.

He dosn't say how the large magnet for the base is magnetized. My guess would be axially, so one or the other pole's probably facing up.

"well actually in those speaker magnets, one side of the disk is north and one side is south. the magnets were placed same poles facing each other so that would be on one side n - n  and the other s - s. so they were repelling each other".

"The 2 Little magnets were pulled off two little Pc-Speakers. The one big magnet is pulled out of a 5"25 old floppy drive (the ones with the flexible big disks). The "kick coil" is a ferrite ring pulled out an old computer too and it is on the wires going to the reset and on/off switches between the motherboard and the frontpanel. It has got some turns of normal mag wire around it and it is a closed torroid, it was pulsed with a normal square wave coming from a function generator. So basicly alll parts are pulled out of one old computer i took apart because it was broken".

MileHigh

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Re: Partnered Output Coils - Free Energy
« Reply #509 on: January 29, 2015, 04:17:07 AM »
i know enough to stay out of the way when people are working...but then I am not here to disrupt their work like the paid shills and their unwitting witless lap dog arse kisser.

Regards...

If you asked Conrad if he was being disrupted or being helped, what do you think he would say?

He already thanked myself and TK for the help so stop acting like a bovine moron with an immature potty-mouth and get yourself some self-respect.