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### Author Topic: Partnered Output Coils - Free Energy  (Read 3173850 times)

#### picowatt

• Hero Member
• Posts: 2038
##### Re: Partnered Output Coils - Free Energy
« Reply #4065 on: June 28, 2015, 05:09:33 PM »
Ok,how can i explain this so as it makes sense as to why you cant hook the positive of the output to the positive of the input.

The easiest way to explain it (or demonstrate it) would be to make additional input/output I and V measurements at various output load points.  As .99 suggested, you may not even be at your optimal load point "COP" wise.

Also, as an additional check of input power, can your bench supply output sufficient current to run your device?

PW

#### synchro1

• Hero Member
• Posts: 4775
##### Re: Partnered Output Coils - Free Energy
« Reply #4066 on: June 28, 2015, 05:33:19 PM »
Ok,how can i explain this so as it makes sense as to why you cant hook the positive of the output to the positive of the input.

Build your self an SSG pulse motor-the simple school girl circuit setup.
Now,in stead of connecting the positive of the run battery to the negative of the charge battery,hook the negative of the run battery to the negative of the charge battery,and then try and hook your positive output to the positive of the charge battery,and see what happens.

There is no problem linking the negative on the input with the negative on the output,but you simply cannot hook the positive of the output to the source positive.

@Tinman,

Add a simple output coil to the SSG, wired so the output is above battery voltage, then connect the positive of the output to the positive electrode of the input battery. The battery will accept the charge and run the unit too. I have videos demonstrating this kind of connection working well. It requires the "Voltage Differential".

#### picowatt

• Hero Member
• Posts: 2038
##### Re: Partnered Output Coils - Free Energy
« Reply #4067 on: June 28, 2015, 05:53:01 PM »
That's the gist of what I am trying to say Brad.

If the load seen by the coil can be adjusted (via converter output voltage and current), then hopefully you can loop it AND maximize the Pout/Pin ratio.

.99,

Are you sufficiently satisfied with the in/out measurements Tinman has provided?

Would you care to share any opinions you may have regarding same?

PW

#### MarkE

• Hero Member
• Posts: 6830
##### Re: Partnered Output Coils - Free Energy
« Reply #4068 on: June 28, 2015, 06:23:59 PM »
Tinman thanks for the video.  There are one or two things that can be doen before attempting to work out a self-loop test:

1) If the bench power supply will provide more than 2A, then substitute the bench supply for the battery, and then once the load is connected, dial back the power supply current limit until the circuit collapses.  Record the lowest current setting that the circuit holds up at.  If it is around 0.75A then that gives you additional confirmation that the input current readings are correct.  The input battery voltage reading should already be beyond dispute.  This is what picowatt and .99 are pretty much getting at.

2) If the bench supply can handle the load, then drop using the battery as the bench supply voltage won't droop.

3) See if the apparent OU holds-up with a higher resistance and therefore voltage load.  Two bulbs in series would be useful.  If you need to protect the gate of your MOSFET, a series gate resistor and a  8.2V - 15V Zener diode right across the gate to source connection will insure that the MOSFET doesn't get killed.  For the time being thee is no reason to go beyond 15V on the output side which would be safe for the MOSFET when the load is connected.  The Zener will just protect when the load is disconnected.

4) Reconcile the circuit potentials in preparation for devising a self-loop scheme.  As I interpret your schematic, the input and output are already DC isolated.  So, thee whould be no problems created by jumping the negative side of the battery or power supply to the negative side of the output capacitor.  That is easily checked by seeing if the DMM voltages stay put going from unconnected to connected.  If they stay put, as they should, then all we need is enough voltage while the circuit is still delivering apparent OU.  If this does not work then we will need an isolated circuit.

#### picowatt

• Hero Member
• Posts: 2038
##### Re: Partnered Output Coils - Free Energy
« Reply #4069 on: June 28, 2015, 06:45:55 PM »
Tinman thanks for the video.  There are one or two things that can be doen before attempting to work out a self-loop test:

1) If the bench power supply will provide more than 2A, then substitute the bench supply for the battery, and then once the load is connected, dial back the power supply current limit until the circuit collapses.  Record the lowest current setting that the circuit holds up at.  If it is around 0.75A then that gives you additional confirmation that the input current readings are correct.  The input battery voltage reading should already be beyond dispute.  This is what picowatt and .99 are pretty much getting at.

2) If the bench supply can handle the load, then drop using the battery as the bench supply voltage won't droop.

3) See if the apparent OU holds-up with a higher resistance and therefore voltage load.  Two bulbs in series would be useful.  If you need to protect the gate of your MOSFET, a series gate resistor and a  8.2V - 15V Zener diode right across the gate to source connection will insure that the MOSFET doesn't get killed.  For the time being thee is no reason to go beyond 15V on the output side which would be safe for the MOSFET when the load is connected.  The Zener will just protect when the load is disconnected.

4) Reconcile the circuit potentials in preparation for devising a self-loop scheme.  As I interpret your schematic, the input and output are already DC isolated.  So, thee whould be no problems created by jumping the negative side of the battery or power supply to the negative side of the output capacitor.  That is easily checked by seeing if the DMM voltages stay put going from unconnected to connected.  If they stay put, as they should, then all we need is enough voltage while the circuit is still delivering apparent OU.  If this does not work then we will need an isolated circuit.

MarkE,

How satisfied are you with the in/out measurements Tinman has provided?

I am a bit more confident in the output measurements than I am the input measurements, but even the input measurements are looking pretty solid.  I would like to see some additional verification of the input (bench supply, scope and CSR, etc), but I have to admit, my "probability meter" has moved a bit further...

PW

#### picowatt

• Hero Member
• Posts: 2038
##### Re: Partnered Output Coils - Free Energy
« Reply #4070 on: June 28, 2015, 07:05:36 PM »
Tinman,

Do you have any other meters that you can use to further confirm your measurements?

I recall you mentioning the acquisition of some analog meters...

PW

#### MarkE

• Hero Member
• Posts: 6830
##### Re: Partnered Output Coils - Free Energy
« Reply #4071 on: June 28, 2015, 07:28:14 PM »
MarkE,

How satisfied are you with the in/out measurements Tinman has provided?

I am a bit more confident in the output measurements than I am the input measurements, but even the input measurements are looking pretty solid.  I would like to see some additional verification of the input (bench supply, scope and CSR, etc), but I have to admit, my "probability meter" has moved a bit further...

PW
The output measurements have looked solid for awhile.  The input measurements also look consistent.  So the problem of course is that OU is not supposed to be possible, yet that is what the measurements suggest.  So, further down the road we must go to find out whether what the present measurements tell us is real or not.  If the measurements are correct then the thing should be able to be set-up to self loop.

#### synchro1

• Hero Member
• Posts: 4775
##### Re: Partnered Output Coils - Free Energy
« Reply #4072 on: June 28, 2015, 07:33:56 PM »
The output measurements have looked solid for awhile.  The input measurements also look consistent.  So the problem of course is that OU is not supposed to be possible, yet that is what the measurements suggest.  So, further down the road we must go to find out whether what the present measurements tell us is real or not.  If the measurements are correct then the thing should be able to be set-up to self loop.

All Tinman needs to do is to run the positive bulb wire to the positive battery electrode and see if the battery increases it's charge. Naturally, the grounds need to be connected too.

#### poynt99

• TPU-Elite
• Hero Member
• Posts: 3582
##### Re: Partnered Output Coils - Free Energy
« Reply #4073 on: June 28, 2015, 08:10:24 PM »
.99,

Are you sufficiently satisfied with the in/out measurements Tinman has provided?

Would you care to share any opinions you may have regarding same?

PW
Aside from one or two individuals we all know of, one would have to try pretty hard to screw up an input power measurement involving a DC supply. In 2011 I clearly outlined how to do it (see pages 33-34, 39-41 in the document) with one DMM on a noisy high frequency switching circuit.

The real challenge is and always has been output power measurements.

So far I can not find any fault in Brad's measurements, and I am cautiously optimistic they are correct. However, I would only gain 100% confidence in the actual measurements unless I performed them myself (after examining the setup of course to ensure no funny business and no ooops's).

#### poynt99

• TPU-Elite
• Hero Member
• Posts: 3582
##### Re: Partnered Output Coils - Free Energy
« Reply #4074 on: June 28, 2015, 08:13:00 PM »
All Tinman needs to do is to run the positive bulb wire to the positive battery electrode and see if the battery increases it's charge. Naturally, the grounds need to be connected too.
He has already tried that. The motor stalls.

If you are suggesting to do that while the bulb is connected, it's no use because the bulb voltage is only about 10V.

#### MileHigh

• Hero Member
• Posts: 7600
##### Re: Partnered Output Coils - Free Energy
« Reply #4075 on: June 28, 2015, 08:46:42 PM »
Well, since there is a sense of somewhat of an impasse, I will offer some suggestions for the experts to ponder and if they decide to run with any of them they can flesh out the details for Tinman.

Double-check the batteries in all of the meters.  I am pretty sure there is a "twilight zone" for digital multimeters where they measure voltage incorrectly but the low battery warning is not showing on the displays.   I know some meter swapping has been done but check it anyway.

There are many low-pass filtering strategies to consider.  The conundrum is that the input measurement looks good.  I think that people have more confidence in the output measurement, so the input measurement needs to be attacked again.  So I would suggest trying an alternative method to low-pass filter the input measurement.

I have always been fond of the "current bleeder" approach, although I have never actually done it.  Get a big coke-can electrolytic, 10,000 or 20,000 uF.   Take a variable power supply and feed current into the coke can through a fixed higher-wattage resistor.  Something like this:  When the motor is running, the bench supply is at 15 volts, and current flows into the coke can via the bleeder resistor.  The coke can is at 12 volts, your desired voltage.  The coke can outputs power to the motor, and you keep the other filtering components in place.  For sure Tinman has all sorts of wound coils floating around, and he could use one in between the coke can output and the rest of the filtering.  So that would be your big dumb low-pass filter, including an inline coil to block any high frequencies getting back to the coke can.

So your current measurement is based on the voltage across the bleeder resistor.   Your voltage measurement for your power source is the coke can voltage.  To be really safe, use heavy gauge wires between the coke can setup and the rest of the device under test that are about 12 inches long.  The rationale is that you can keep the pair of multimeters monitoring the coke can voltage and current away from the the motor.

So when you turn on the motor, you just have to wait 20-30 seconds to tweak the voltage on the bench power supply to give you the desired "power supply" voltage and to wait for the bleeder current flow to stabilize.

If you can't measure the input power with that setup properly, I will pack it all in.

Likewise, because of the desire to go the extra distance, do something similar for the light bulb load.  For example, you could replace the light bulb with the equivalent resistor, in parallel with the same decoupling scheme that you have now, and also use a 12-inch length of wire to physically displace the load away from the motor.  In this case you do not need a multimeter to measure the current flow, all that you need is to measure the voltage across the resistor/capacitor that emulates the light bulb load.

So, you have three multimeters, and they are all at least 12 inches away from the motor because of the potential RF issues.  The "power supply" for the system is just a big fat dumb coke can capacitor.   Just a few simple number crunches will give you the (hopefully) unmolested input and output power.

Now if that shows over unity, then I pass off the baton either to the entering of the Age of Aquarius, or to our resident experts that know more than me for another test.

MileHigh

#### synchro1

• Hero Member
• Posts: 4775
##### Re: Partnered Output Coils - Free Energy
« Reply #4076 on: June 28, 2015, 08:47:00 PM »
He has already tried that. The motor stalls.

If you are suggesting to do that while the bulb is connected, it's no use because the bulb voltage is only about 10V.

Tinman needs to transform the ouput to a voltage higher then the battery voltage, or it will act as a load and sap the input. This is why the motor stalled. A "Joule Thief" would help turn that around.

#### poynt99

• TPU-Elite
• Hero Member
• Posts: 3582
##### Re: Partnered Output Coils - Free Energy
« Reply #4077 on: June 28, 2015, 08:51:31 PM »
Tinman needs to transform the ouput to a voltage higher then the battery voltage, or it will act as a load and sap the input. This is why the motor stalled. A "Joule Thief" would help turn that around.
Yes,

I already suggested that Brad try a boosting DC to DC converter. (See above)

#### woopy

• Hero Member
• Posts: 608
##### Re: Partnered Output Coils - Free Energy
« Reply #4078 on: June 28, 2015, 11:02:37 PM »
Hi Tinman

Today ,i dismantled my third AC/DC motor , so i can make comparison of the  modifications  one after the other on each of the motor to see what brings more.

I have got the shorting of the B coil ,with a transistor and also with a fet, but no improvement on the A coil output, i would say that the output is slightly less when the B coil is in shorting mode.

Than i tried the shaping of the brushes and the timing but i do not get your results.

Than i tested the magnetic field all around the rotor with compass to see where and how it propagates in order to grasp your magnetic field bucking idea.

I tried different brushes and also tungsten rods.

I have to say that all this experiments are of very high grade of learning to me. I also got so high voltage spikes with my tungsten rods that i fried the channel 1 of my scope ouups !!

But so far no good results on the 3 standard "universal motor" as they are originally.

So i am thinking of rewinding one of the stator coil in counter winding with respect to the other coil (bucking coil) ??

Or eventually rewind the rotor winding to get each coil connected to one dedicated  commutator's segment and so be separated from the other and not be serial connected, so the flyback power will not be dissipated in the serial rotor winding.

Or perhaps both

Voila, so far my results

Laurent

#### synchro1

• Hero Member
• Posts: 4775
##### Re: Partnered Output Coils - Free Energy
« Reply #4079 on: June 28, 2015, 11:11:18 PM »
@Tinman,

This simple voltage doubling circuit between the bulb wires and battery should work fine!