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Author Topic: Partnered Output Coils - Free Energy  (Read 2379552 times)

Offline tinman

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Re: Partnered Output Coils - Free Energy
« Reply #2370 on: May 05, 2015, 06:06:39 PM »
There is nothing special about that toroidal transformer configuration.  That's just more alleged secret sauce and it's quackery.  You just have to look at the transformer to pronounce it "normal."

Ah dont say that MH,i am already half way through building it-->and it's a bitch to wind and grind the ferrite piece in the center so as there is no gap-complete coupling.

I was on my way to my first OU transformer :D
Still going to finish it-->just so we know and can show the truth. ;)

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Partnered Output Coils - Free Energy
« Reply #2370 on: May 05, 2015, 06:06:39 PM »

Offline EMJunkie

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Re: Partnered Output Coils - Free Energy
« Reply #2371 on: May 05, 2015, 11:21:13 PM »
Could you please change the questions in the poll so people can vote for TK and MarkE separately?

Hey Verpies - Sure thing!

TK Vote coming up next...

All the best

   Chris

Offline EMJunkie

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Re: Partnered Output Coils - Free Energy
« Reply #2372 on: May 05, 2015, 11:25:53 PM »
So is the toroid core steel or ferrite?
And what dose F-Motor on the drawing mean?.

I believe Clemente Figuera used an Iron Core.

F-Motor? Not sure, can you provide reference?

   Chris

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Partnered Output Coils - Free Energy
« Reply #2372 on: May 05, 2015, 11:25:53 PM »
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Offline Red_Sunset

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Re: Partnered Output Coils - Free Energy
« Reply #2373 on: May 05, 2015, 11:34:07 PM »
Poor Thane Heins is still trying to pitch his gross mismeasurement deeds as over unity.  ......................
......................................
There is nothing special about that toroidal transformer configuration.  That's just more alleged secret sauce and it's quackery.  You just have to look at the transformer to pronounce it "normal."

MileHigh,

What would be very beneficial to this forum,  is a detailed technical explanation on exactly the reason why that transformer can not deliver the OU as set out in the initial idea.  The reasons why the EMF flux bypass does not produce the result expected.
A explanation how the transformer is therefore quite similar than a regular transformer.

The same for the phi-Motor, how the feedback torque initiated by the toroid core emf flux affects the rotation of the center magnet rotor.  The flux does not require to escape the toroid to affect the rotation of the rotor. This toroid motor concept preceded all other gnerators and was already build around ~1870 by Zenobe Gramme, a Belgian residing in Paris at the time. The concept was demonstrated at the Vienna trade fair in 1873.

Once that is understood any further argumentation is moot

Red_Sunset

Offline MarkE

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Re: Partnered Output Coils - Free Energy
« Reply #2374 on: May 06, 2015, 12:25:47 AM »
MileHigh,

What would be very beneficial to this forum,  is a detailed technical explanation on exactly the reason why that transformer can not deliver the OU as set out in the initial idea.  The reasons why the EMF flux bypass does not produce the result expected.
A explanation how the transformer is therefore quite similar than a regular transformer.
1. Energy is conserved.  Induction that involves mechanical motion transfers energy between mechanical and electromagnetic domains.  Induction that involves only changing magnetic fields, IE transformers transforms electrical power from one impedance to another.  Neither conversion process reduces the potential energy of some substance into energy while converting said substance into another substance with lower potential energy.  Ergo the energy out of any induction driven device is limited to the energy in less losses.

2. Thane Heins device is visibly a transformer that has lots and lots of leakage inductance.  That is what is responsible for the nearly 90 degree phase shift of his device.  Phase shifts of nearly 90 degrees mean that there is a very large ratio of reactive to real power, which makes accurate measure of real power and real power efficiency much more difficult than at low phase angles.  Any distortion from a pure sine wave, skew between the voltage and current channels, basic gain, or offset errors in the measurements can throw efficiency measurements way off.
Quote

The same for the phi-Motor, how the feedback torque initiated by the toroid core emf flux affects the rotation of the center magnet rotor.  The flux does not require to escape the toroid to affect the rotation of the rotor. This toroid motor concept preceded all other gnerators and was already build around ~1870 by Zenobe Gramme, a Belgian residing in Paris at the time. The concept was demonstrated at the Vienna trade fair in 1873.
See 1.
Quote

Once that is understood any further argumentation is moot

Red_Sunset
When it comes to induction machines and the idea of free energy there are two possible routes:

1) Establish that CoE does not always apply, and that some induction machine can violate CoE through reliable measurement.  (Theory is no good because theory says CoE is immutable.) OR
2) Establish that some induction machine consumes an identified fuel source and spent fuel ash, the potential energy difference of which can be shown output from the induction machine.

Either option is a daunting task that has never been successfully executed.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Partnered Output Coils - Free Energy
« Reply #2374 on: May 06, 2015, 12:25:47 AM »
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Offline Farmhand

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Re: Partnered Output Coils - Free Energy
« Reply #2375 on: May 06, 2015, 08:08:36 AM »
Tinman, if you began building a Bi-Toroid please continue, It would be interesting to see the results regardless of the outcome. At least we know with you we'll get exactly what we see and you'll say what you think.

..

Offline Red_Sunset

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Re: Partnered Output Coils - Free Energy
« Reply #2376 on: May 06, 2015, 08:28:10 AM »
1. Energy is conserved.  Induction that involves mechanical motion transfers energy between mechanical and electromagnetic domains.  Induction that involves only changing magnetic fields, IE transformers transforms electrical power from one impedance to another.  Neither conversion process reduces the potential energy of some substance into energy while converting said substance into another substance with lower potential energy.  Ergo the energy out of any induction driven device is limited to the energy in less losses.

You are saying,  "identify the energy source",  in Heins idea, he attempts to break the feedback loop (Mutual inductance), with the purpose not to register the consumption of the load.  He is effective trying to trick nature to deliver without input from the greater universe.
 You make a valid point that must remain "standing",  but not prevent further exploration

Quote
2. Thane Heins device is visibly a transformer that has lots and lots of leakage inductance.  That is what is responsible for the nearly 90 degree phase shift of his device.  Phase shifts of nearly 90 degrees mean that there is a very large ratio of reactive to real power, which makes accurate measure of real power and real power efficiency much more difficult than at low phase angles.  Any distortion from a pure sine wave, skew between the voltage and current channels, basic gain, or offset errors in the measurements can throw efficiency measurements way off.See 1.

If the secondary is not able feedback to the primary, the phase shift will remains 90dgr since only magnetizing current is dominant in the primary core.   But that does not directly address the deficiency in the idea. 
As example, allow me to briefly expand on the core problem in Heins idea, and where the focus should go in order to resolve the idea.  The problem  is that the self induction of the secondary will kill the transformer output. This self induction (generated flux field by the secondary) will increase as you increase the permeability of the flux diversion core, this increased permeability also reduces the feedback towards the primary which is now unable to compensate.  The result is a rapid reduction in secondary output.

Quote
When it comes to induction machines and the idea of free energy there are two possible routes:
1) Establish that CoE does not always apply, and that some induction machine can violate CoE through reliable measurement.  (Theory is no good because theory says CoE is immutable.) OR
2) Establish that some induction machine consumes an identified fuel source and spent fuel ash, the potential energy difference of which can be shown output from the induction machine.
Either option is a daunting task that has never been successfully executed.
You are correct, it is a daunting task and for good reason (the theory became law and stood the test of time for good reason)
But that doesn't take away the need to dig deeper so the focus can be more precise to resolve problems.
To further this forum debate, can you demonstrate exactly how the load slows down the toriod motor or generator

Red_Sunset

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Partnered Output Coils - Free Energy
« Reply #2376 on: May 06, 2015, 08:28:10 AM »
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Offline ramset

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Re: Partnered Output Coils - Free Energy
« Reply #2377 on: May 06, 2015, 10:10:50 AM »
Chris
You posted a circuit here in the beginning of this thread with OU claims.
it was replicated By Tinsel Koala ,if you have a problem with his replication not being accurate please explain where he went wrong??

I can appreciate your frustration with people who just like to post endless clinical posts and never do more than critique ,however Tinsel stands head and shoulders above this group, He goes WAY out of his way to properly investigate and replicate to standards which very few at this forum are even capable of...

PLEASE where did his replication of your circuit go wrong ??

Chetkremens@Gmail.com

Offline MarkE

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Re: Partnered Output Coils - Free Energy
« Reply #2378 on: May 06, 2015, 11:50:37 AM »
You are saying,  "identify the energy source",  in Heins idea, he attempts to break the feedback loop (Mutual inductance), with the purpose not to register the consumption of the load.  He is effective trying to trick nature to deliver without input from the greater universe.
 You make a valid point that must remain "standing",  but not prevent further exploration
Once the parrot is shown to be nailed to its perch, it is all over.
Quote

If the secondary is not able feedback to the primary, the phase shift will remains 90dgr since only magnetizing current is dominant in the primary core.   But that does not directly address the deficiency in the idea. 
It explains the fundamental deficiency in the alleged evidence presented.  It's GIGO.  An idea either has a basis that is compatible with existing theory, or experiment has to show something that is incompatible with existing theory.  Thane Heins does neither.
Quote
As example, allow me to briefly expand on the core problem in Heins idea, and where the focus should go in order to resolve the idea.  The problem  is that the self induction of the secondary will kill the transformer output. This self induction (generated flux field by the secondary) will increase as you increase the permeability of the flux diversion core, this increased permeability also reduces the feedback towards the primary which is now unable to compensate.  The result is a rapid reduction in secondary output.
The evidence in Thane Heins experiments is clearly visible on his oscilloscope:  He has lots and lots of leakage inductance on top of a distorted waveform.  We can reproduce the experiment results with a simple inductor.  And we can further with careful measurement show that the OU claims are measurement error on his part that stem primarily from trying to measure a small real power buried under a large reactive power.
Quote
You are correct, it is a daunting task and for good reason (the theory became law and stood the test of time for good reason)
But that doesn't take away the need to dig deeper so the focus can be more precise to resolve problems.
You see this I don't understand at all.  Once it is established that:
1) There is no basis in theory, and 2) No experimental evidence supporting an extraordinary idea, then we are done.  There is no place left to dig.
Quote
To further this forum debate, can you demonstrate exactly how the load slows down the toriod motor or generator

Red_Sunset
What debate?  Where is there any credible evidence in favor of the claim?

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Partnered Output Coils - Free Energy
« Reply #2378 on: May 06, 2015, 11:50:37 AM »
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Offline minnie

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Re: Partnered Output Coils - Free Energy
« Reply #2379 on: May 06, 2015, 12:12:34 PM »



  I get confused with these things. Thane Heins wants a PF. close to zero
 and we spend 1,000's dollars investing in switched capacitor equipment
 to get the PF. of our welding shop to as close to one as possible.
            John.

Offline MarkE

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Re: Partnered Output Coils - Free Energy
« Reply #2380 on: May 06, 2015, 12:19:05 PM »


  I get confused with these things. Thane Heins wants a PF. close to zero
 and we spend 1,000's dollars investing in switched capacitor equipment
 to get the PF. of our welding shop to as close to one as possible.
            John.
Power factors close to zero make for real measurement challenges.  Thane Heins like some others have found that they only seem to get extra juice when they have conditions where measurements are unreliable.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Partnered Output Coils - Free Energy
« Reply #2380 on: May 06, 2015, 12:19:05 PM »
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Offline MarkE

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Re: Partnered Output Coils - Free Energy
« Reply #2381 on: May 06, 2015, 12:23:16 PM »
Chris
You posted a circuit here in the beginning of this thread with OU claims.
it was replicated By Tinsel Koala ,if you have a problem with his replication not being accurate please explain where he went wrong??

I can appreciate your frustration with people who just like to post endless clinical posts and never do more than critique ,however Tinsel stands head and shoulders above this group, He goes WAY out of his way to properly investigate and replicate to standards which very few at this forum are even capable of...

PLEASE where did his replication of your circuit go wrong ??

Chetkremens@Gmail.com
There is nothing wrong with either TK's replication or Itsu's replication.  If you slog through this thread from the beginning you will find that EMJ was measuring power in a bizarre manner, taking current through one circuit branch and multiplying it by voltage across another circuit branch.

Offline EMJunkie

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Re: Partnered Output Coils - Free Energy
« Reply #2382 on: May 06, 2015, 01:56:39 PM »
There is nothing wrong with either TK's replication or Itsu's replication.  If you slog through this thread from the beginning you will find that EMJ was measuring power in a bizarre manner, taking current through one circuit branch and multiplying it by voltage across another circuit branch.

Hahahaha - First, to see, one must have eyes....

Second, TK and Itsu (I respect Itsu) built a circuit, but did not succeed! It is as simple as that! They both built Circuits Expecting it to fail before starting. Both did not follow proper instructions, and circuit suggestions.

Third - Simple things must be understood before just going into a build - I have said this right from the start!!!!!!!!!!

If you don't understand the basics, then it cannot work! Period!

But hey, you blokes, Guru's, keep pounding the pavement for answers....

I have them, my Team of excellent people have them!

You could have them too, if you shut your yabbering and listened, stop thinking you know better... but you cant!

Offline minnie

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Re: Partnered Output Coils - Free Energy
« Reply #2383 on: May 06, 2015, 02:01:03 PM »



  Yes Junkie,
                all you have to do is show it working and you can laugh at everyone!!!!
  You keep saying how simple it is.......
           John.

Offline EMJunkie

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Re: Partnered Output Coils - Free Energy
« Reply #2384 on: May 06, 2015, 02:07:37 PM »

You could have them too, if you shut your yabbering and listened, stop thinking you know better... but you cant!


I must correct myself - I have already given you the answers! You just have not put it together! When you do, that eureka moment will be the best feeling you've ever had!!!

Better than any drug you can buy!

It, the entire thing is up to you! Your choice! Your Decision!

 

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