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Author Topic: New Free Energy Conferences in Hamburg and Chicago  (Read 104630 times)

MarkE

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Re: New Free Energy Conferences in Hamburg and Chicago
« Reply #195 on: February 13, 2015, 07:17:13 AM »
I am putting this in my own words... Apparently the laser beam of the player does refract somewhat when trying to read the image on the aluminum layer. The atoms within the plastic material of the disc are under stress and this can somewhat refract the player laser beam, the Clarifier is arranged such a way that the DC motor is connected to a long power magnet wire that is wrapped around four (quad), super pole magnets, they are wrapped 90* to the super pole magnetic fields.  I believe it is this arrangement that is generating a scalar pulsed field that relaxes the atoms, or depotentializes the somewhat stressed plastic material and this simply allows the laser beam refract less. That is where the sound improvement  comes from. That is about all I know about how the Clarifier works.

-Dave Wing
I am sorry but it sounds like you are just repeating someone else's techno-babble.  The sound from a CD is a reconstruction of sequences of amplitude samples, each sample itself encoded as train of digital bits.  At the lowermost level, the LASER reading and error recovery circuitry either recovers the printed 1's and 0's or you get basically nothing.

Dave Wing

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Re: New Free Energy Conferences in Hamburg and Chicago
« Reply #196 on: February 13, 2015, 07:23:26 AM »
I am sorry but it sounds like you are just repeating someone else's pseudo-techno-babble.  The sound from a CD is a reconstruction of sequences of amplitude samples, each sample itself encoded as train of digital bits.  At the lowermost level, the LASER reading and error recovery circuitry either recovers the printed 1's and 0's or you get basically nothing.

Well that is basically what I have gathered on how it works... And it does work and make a difference in sound so how is that possible?

-Dave Wing

Dave Wing

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Re: New Free Energy Conferences in Hamburg and Chicago
« Reply #197 on: February 13, 2015, 07:29:42 AM »
That's hilarious.

Here, Dave Wing, I have a challenge to you.  You send me 20 untreated audio discs (if you have any) and your best model Clarifier. You are free to choose the content of the discs and even to make them yourself. Mark them (Like A thru T or 1 thru 20 or something) so that they can be identified visually.  I will treat _some_ of the discs according to the approved instructions, and then I'll send the whole package back to you. You listen to the 20 discs and then tell us which have been treated.  If you are, say, 80 percent correct or better, I'll write up a stunning positive endorsement along with the official report of this blinded experiment, which could be published in any audiophile magazine of your choosing.

80 percent correct is a "C+" or low "B -" in school grading terms. You should be able to do better than that, don't you think?   ;)

I will analyze the results according to Signal Detection Theory (SDT). For each disc you will state "yes, treated" or "no, not treated" and I will compare your results to my own records of which discs I actually treated and which were just set aside.  Each of your twenty responses will either be a HIT (you say "yes" to an actually treated disc), a MISS (you say "no" to a treated disc), A FALSE ALARM (you say "yes" to an untreated disc) or a CORRECT REJECTION ( you say "no" to an untreated disc.) Other than my treatment with the Clarifier, all discs you send me will be handled identically. I can even arrange to spin the "untreated" discs without actually treating them with the Clarifier. So the "80 percent correct" discrimination criterion would require that you have a HIT rate of 80 percent or better, a CORRECT REJECTION rate of 80 percent or better, and MISS and FALSE ALARM rates of 20 percent or less. A low B- score, that's all that's required to "prove" your claim under this protocol. I won't even be listening to the discs myself, before or after treating some of them.

A completely random result, say obtained just by flipping a coin over each disc and saying "yes" or "no" based on the coin flip, would ideally yield rates of 50 percent for all 4 boxes in the SDT paradigm. A strong observer bias towards saying "yes" would yield inflated False Alarm rates, and toward saying "no" would yield inflated Miss rates. Only a true ability to detect treated discs would produce the 80:20 or better ratios. For example you could say "yes" to every disc, and obviously you would be "correct" in that your HIT rate would be 100 percent. But your False Alarm rate would also be 100 percent, your CR and Miss rates zero, and your discriminability score ( called d' or d prime) would be zero: you can't really tell the difference, and your Bias score (called beta or criterion) would show a strong "yes" bias.

This analysis allows both a measure of "discriminability" which means how well you can actually detect the actual treated disks, and also "bias" which is a measure of how prone you are to say "yes" or "no" to any disk regardless of its actual treatment state.

I will also analyze the raw PCM data stream coming from the treated disks before and after treatment to see if there is any _objective_ difference in the data stream after treatment.

This is a 100 percent objective and scientific challenge to you, I am completely qualified to do both types of analysis (SDT and data stream) and I am approaching you in good faith. Here you have a chance to prove to yourself, to me, to customers and to the World that the Clarifier works as you claim and advertise, and at no cost to you other than shipping and the cost of making the disks. I expect you not to cheat, say by treating all the disks before you send them to me.... but the wonderful thing about SDT is that it will allow me to determine, by your responses after I send them back to you with a random number of disks I have treated, if you have cheated or not!

I am willing to donate my time and expertise to performing this experiment. Are you willing to take the risk of being proven wrong in your claims about the Clarifier in a truly scientific experiment?

You see the problem is the disc treatment is only a temporary, it lasts only for a finite period of time, perhaps a few hours or more until the disc reverts back to the way it originally was.

-Dave Wing

Dave Wing

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Re: New Free Energy Conferences in Hamburg and Chicago
« Reply #198 on: February 13, 2015, 07:31:19 AM »
Posted by mistake.

MarkE

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Re: New Free Energy Conferences in Hamburg and Chicago
« Reply #199 on: February 13, 2015, 07:36:40 AM »
Well that is basically what I have gathered on how it works... And it does work and make a difference in sound so how is that possible?

-Dave Wing
Your assertion is based on the unestablished premise that the device does make a difference in the sound.  That requires that the PCM data stream from a treated disc is different than that from an untreated disc.  You yourself admitted that you have not compared before and after PCM data streams.  So you do not have direct evidence that the most fundamental requirement is met:  That the device changes what the player reproduces.

So this brings us to the question:  What if any objective tests have actually been performed by the fraud Bedini, or by anyone else promoting these Audio Pet Rocks?  I am betting zero objective tests have been performed.  I am willing to bet that if you send 20 CDs and a clarifier to TK you will be unable to notice which CDs get processed by the clarifier and which do not.  I bet that the PCM streams before and after treatment of each CD are identical. 

The whole point of digital data storage and transmission is that each copy is identical to the next.  A set of digitally encoded information is either recovered on the far side of the error recovery or it isn't.  When it isn't, the quality degrades very severely, very fast.  Something that operates without synchronizing to the PCM data stream cannot alter the stream in a deterministic way.  And as we know, the "Clarifier" does not read the CD.

MarkE

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Re: New Free Energy Conferences in Hamburg and Chicago
« Reply #200 on: February 13, 2015, 07:41:23 AM »
You see the problem is the disc treatment is only a temporary, it lasts only for a finite period of time, perhaps a few hours or more until the disc is back to the way it originally was.

-Dave Wing
Or the marijuana high wears off.  The claims you make for the device have no basis in objective fact.

Dave Wing

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Re: New Free Energy Conferences in Hamburg and Chicago
« Reply #201 on: February 13, 2015, 07:49:49 AM »
Well why don't you disbelievers buy one from my store in eBay and do your hands on testing. But make sure to actually listen a few discs. Listen to a particular song on the disc then treat the disc and listen to the same song and see if the claims are true. Repeat this process for your 20 discs and tell me what you find. I am also curious to see your results with both scientific and actual hearing tests.

-Dave Wng

MarkE

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Re: New Free Energy Conferences in Hamburg and Chicago
« Reply #202 on: February 13, 2015, 07:55:11 AM »
Well why don't you disbelievers buy one from my store in eBay and do your hands on testing. But make sure to actually listen a few discs. Listen a particular song on the disc then treat the disc and listen to the same song and see if the claims are true. Repeat this process for your 20 discs and tell me what you find.

-Dave Wng
Dave are you familiar with the mail fraud statutes?

TinselKoala

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Re: New Free Energy Conferences in Hamburg and Chicago
« Reply #203 on: February 13, 2015, 07:58:28 AM »
You see the problem is the disc treatment is only a temporary, it lasts only for a finite period of time, perhaps a few hours or more until the disc reverts back to the way it originally was.

-Dave Wing

Do you or Bedini tell your customers that up front? It's the first I've heard that the treatment is only temporary and fades quickly.
But how convenient for you! I expected you to say that shipping via airplanes cancelled the effect, or some other such cop-out!

OK, since you have a lot of irons in this fire, let's meet somewhere. You, as a seller and promoter of these items, have the responsibility to assure your customers that your claims are true. So you can afford to pay my transportation to your "listening room" and I'll take 20 discs of your choice and your clarifier to another room and do the treatments. Then there will be only a few minutes of time between my treatment of some of them and your evaluation. I can even do them one at a time: treat, or not treat, a single disc, immediately after you have listened to it on your equipment, then you can listen to it again immediately after I have treated, or not treated it. I'll treat them in a closed room, and slip them under the door back to you after doing it, so you can't see any "tells" from my posture or attitude.

If you "win" with the required score, I'll reimburse you for my transportation expenses so you are "out" nothing and you gain a positive scientific report for free. If you "lose", that is if you cannot really discriminate between treated and untreated discs with this small time delay of only minutes, you pay for my transportation expenses and my daily consultant fee.  In either case you get the full writeup and can publish it in a magazine. Or I will, since you are not likely to want to publish a negative result!

OK, now let's hear your objection to this proposal. Not willing to spend the money to get me there or risk having to pay my fee... that's fine, perfectly legitimate. It still makes you look like a false claimant, though, who has no confidence in his own claims.


TinselKoala

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Re: New Free Energy Conferences in Hamburg and Chicago
« Reply #204 on: February 13, 2015, 08:02:00 AM »
Well why don't you disbelievers buy one from my store in eBay and do your hands on testing. But make sure to actually listen a few discs. Listen to a particular song on the disc then treat the disc and listen to the same song and see if the claims are true. Repeat this process for your 20 discs and tell me what you find. I am also curious to see your results with both scientific and actual hearing tests.

-Dave Wng

That is not a scientific test.

If you don't want to do the SDT test that I suggested, then send me two identical untreated off the shelf discs and a Clarifier, and I'll treat one and then compare the PCM data between the two with minimal delay time so the treatment doesn't fade, then I'll send the bundle back to you.

Of course if I find no difference in the objective data, you will tell me I'm not holding my mouth right, or the effect doesn't work below the 30th parallel of latitude, or some other cop-out excuse.

Dave Wing

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Re: New Free Energy Conferences in Hamburg and Chicago
« Reply #205 on: February 13, 2015, 08:13:18 AM »
That is not a scientific test.

If you don't want to do the SDT test that I suggested, then send me two identical untreated off the shelf discs and a Clarifier, and I'll treat one and then compare the PCM data between the two with minimal delay time so the treatment doesn't fade, then I'll send the bundle back to you.

Of course if I find no difference in the objective data, you will tell me I'm not holding my mouth right, or the effect doesn't work below the 30th parallel of latitude, or some other cop-out excuse.

I said scientific and hearing tests, you do the honest tests and you tell me what you honestly find. So purchase a unit and do your tests. If you are as honest as some say you are then I will trust your evaluation.

-Dave Wing


TinselKoala

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Re: New Free Energy Conferences in Hamburg and Chicago
« Reply #206 on: February 13, 2015, 08:35:11 AM »
I said scientific and hearing tests, you do the honest tests and you tell me what you honestly find. So purchase a unit and do your tests. If you are as honest as some say you are then I will trust your evaluation.

-Dave Wing

Don't be silly. If you want me to evaluate your claims, YOU send me a Clarifier and discs of your choosing, I will test them and send them back to you. In other words, I am calling your bluff. You are the claimant and all responsibility, including financial, to provide evidence for your claim is your burden and yours alone.

OHH, the Clarifier might be damaged in shipping so that it doesn't work when it gets to me? But only if you are paying, not if I am paying? Come on, you can think of any number of reasons why I might get a negative result.

You are probably not familiar with the great physicist, experimentalist and teacher Richard Feynman. He famously said, "The easiest person to fool is yourself". This is why a subjective listening evaluation is not scientifically valid and it has a well defined technical term attached: Observer (or experimenter) Bias. See the WIKI entry.

The Theory of Signal Detection allows a properly designed experiment to avoid and even quantify the Observer Bias effect.

Dave Wing

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Re: New Free Energy Conferences in Hamburg and Chicago
« Reply #207 on: February 13, 2015, 09:05:16 AM »
Don't be silly. If you want me to evaluate your claims, YOU send me a Clarifier and discs of your choosing, I will test them and send them back to you. In other words, I am calling your bluff. You are the claimant and all responsibility, including financial, to provide evidence for your claim is your burden and yours alone.

OHH, the Clarifier might be damaged in shipping so that it doesn't work when it gets to me? But only if you are paying, not if I am paying? Come on, you can think of any number of reasons why I might get a negative result.

You are probably not familiar with the great physicist, experimentalist and teacher Richard Feynman. He famously said, "The easiest person to fool is yourself". This is why a subjective listening evaluation is not scientifically valid and it has a well defined technical term attached: Observer (or experimenter) Bias. See the WIKI entry.

The Theory of Signal Detection allows a properly designed experiment to avoid and even quantify the Observer Bias effect.

There is no bluff...

I will send you one of my used units, but you must also perform the actual listening tests, I would like to know what audio system you can test the Clarifier on. I would like you to do the blind tests also. And you pay for shipping back to me USPS Priority Mail International. Can we agree on this?

-Dave Wing

MarkE

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Re: New Free Energy Conferences in Hamburg and Chicago
« Reply #208 on: February 13, 2015, 09:31:04 AM »
I said scientific and hearing tests, you do the honest tests and you tell me what you honestly find. So purchase a unit and do your tests. If you are as honest as some say you are then I will trust your evaluation.

-Dave Wing
If the PCM data streams are identical, as they must be then the device makes no difference, which it doesn't.  The whole idea is beyond preposterous and has no basis in theory or experimental evidence.  One might as well sell car wash suds guaranteed to improve smoother engine idle and faster acceleration.

Dave Wing

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Re: New Free Energy Conferences in Hamburg and Chicago
« Reply #209 on: February 13, 2015, 09:36:00 AM »
If the PCM data streams are identical, as they must be then the device makes no difference, which it doesn't.  The whole idea is beyond preposterous and has no basis in theory or experimental evidence.  One might as well sell car wash suds guaranteed to improve smoother engine idle and faster acceleration.

Think what you will... As you never have used the device.

-Dave Wing