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Author Topic: Advanced and Delayed magnetic field's.  (Read 39011 times)

Offline Pirate88179

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Re: Advanced and Delayed magnetic field's.
« Reply #60 on: January 01, 2015, 09:11:22 PM »
I think that this will help:  http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/physics/ParticleAndNuclear/photon_mass.html

Thanks Mark.  I see that they are making a very important distinction between "mass" and "rest mass", otherwise, their formulas are problematic.(according to them)   Also, I see that is very difficult to measure the mass of a photon at rest, probably impossible.

Sorry for the off-topic posts here but this is very interesting.

Thanks,

Bill

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Re: Advanced and Delayed magnetic field's.
« Reply #60 on: January 01, 2015, 09:11:22 PM »

Offline MarkE

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Re: Advanced and Delayed magnetic field's.
« Reply #61 on: January 01, 2015, 10:06:56 PM »
Thanks Mark.  I see that they are making a very important distinction between "mass" and "rest mass", otherwise, their formulas are problematic.(according to them)   Also, I see that is very difficult to measure the mass of a photon at rest, probably impossible.

Sorry for the off-topic posts here but this is very interesting.

Thanks,

Bill
Rust never sleeps and photons never rest.

Offline dieter

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Re: Advanced and Delayed magnetic field's.
« Reply #62 on: January 02, 2015, 09:55:34 AM »
Tinman, thanks for the on-topic answer.


BR


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Re: Advanced and Delayed magnetic field's.
« Reply #62 on: January 02, 2015, 09:55:34 AM »
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Offline NoBull

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Re: Advanced and Delayed magnetic field's.
« Reply #63 on: January 02, 2015, 09:11:04 PM »
In college we learned that photons have "mass" as proved by some university experiments in the 70's.  (I do not recall which one)
The circularly polarized ones transfer measurable momentum on impact.

Offline tinman

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Re: Advanced and Delayed magnetic field's.
« Reply #64 on: January 03, 2015, 02:27:07 AM »
I think that this will help:  http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/physics/ParticleAndNuclear/photon_mass.html
I dont think it helps at all.

Quote: In classical electromagnetic theory, light turns out to have energy E and momentum p, and these happen to be related by E = pc.  Quantum mechanics introduces the idea that light can be viewed as a collection of "particles": photons

Quote: Is there any experimental evidence that the photon has zero rest mass?
Answer quote: Alternative theories of the photon include a term that behaves like a mass, and this gives rise to the very advanced idea of a "massive photon".

Quote: It is almost certainly impossible to do any experiment that would establish the photon rest mass to be exactly zero.

Quote: Likewise, the behavior of static magnetic fields would be modified.  An upper limit to the photon mass can be inferred through satellite measurements of planetary magnetic fields.  The Charge Composition Explorer spacecraft was used to derive an upper limit of 6 × 10−16 eV with high certainty.   This was slightly improved in 1998 by Roderic Lakes in a laboratory experiment that looked for anomalous forces on a Cavendish balance.  The new limit is 7 × 10−17 eV.  Studies of galactic magnetic fields suggest a much better limit of less than 3 × 10−27 eV, but there is some doubt about the validity of this method.

So we have theories and ideas based around the impossable to messure.
Next comes a change to the certain upper limit,and we have a new limit.
Then there was more studdies,and along came a much better limit,but this much better limit has some doubt about the validity of the test.

It is great to see that science and physics is soooo precise

So you see Mark,all your knowledge is based around only theories,ideas and the impossable to messure.


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Re: Advanced and Delayed magnetic field's.
« Reply #64 on: January 03, 2015, 02:27:07 AM »
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Offline MarkE

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Re: Advanced and Delayed magnetic field's.
« Reply #65 on: January 03, 2015, 02:36:30 AM »
I dont think it helps at all.

Quote: In classical electromagnetic theory, light turns out to have energy E and momentum p, and these happen to be related by E = pc.  Quantum mechanics introduces the idea that light can be viewed as a collection of "particles": photons

Quote: Is there any experimental evidence that the photon has zero rest mass?
Answer quote: Alternative theories of the photon include a term that behaves like a mass, and this gives rise to the very advanced idea of a "massive photon".

Quote: It is almost certainly impossible to do any experiment that would establish the photon rest mass to be exactly zero.

Quote: Likewise, the behavior of static magnetic fields would be modified.  An upper limit to the photon mass can be inferred through satellite measurements of planetary magnetic fields.  The Charge Composition Explorer spacecraft was used to derive an upper limit of 6 × 10−16 eV with high certainty.   This was slightly improved in 1998 by Roderic Lakes in a laboratory experiment that looked for anomalous forces on a Cavendish balance.  The new limit is 7 × 10−17 eV.  Studies of galactic magnetic fields suggest a much better limit of less than 3 × 10−27 eV, but there is some doubt about the validity of this method.

So we have theories and ideas based around the impossable to messure.
Next comes a change to the certain upper limit,and we have a new limit.
Then there was more studdies,and along came a much better limit,but this much better limit has some doubt about the validity of the test.

It is great to see that science and physics is soooo precise
Tinman what this tells us is that nothing is sacred.  Zero is within the limit of any of those upper bounds.  Is zero the right number?  We don't know, so we keep performing experiments to try and get closer and closer to the truth.  The mass equivalence of 7E-17 eV's is a very, very small number.  The interesting part is that it is greater than zero.  So, do photons have a non-zero mass and travel very close to, but not quite the speed of light?  Inquiring minds are working on that.

Offline tinman

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Re: Advanced and Delayed magnetic field's.
« Reply #66 on: January 03, 2015, 03:16:57 AM »
Tinman what this tells us is that nothing is sacred.  Zero is within the limit of any of those upper bounds.  Is zero the right number?  We don't know, so we keep performing experiments to try and get closer and closer to the truth.  The mass equivalence of 7E-17 eV's is a very, very small number.  The interesting part is that it is greater than zero.  So, do photons have a non-zero mass and travel very close to, but not quite the speed of light?  Inquiring minds are working on that.
One of the very reasons i dont use sim's. As you can see,to many theories and unknowns. So the question remains-do photons have mass. Well i look at the idea that NASA seems to think they could use large solar sails to propell space craft through space. Now,if the photon had no mass,then this idea wouldnt work,as it is based around that theory-oh ,another theory.
Now,if they do have mass,then as they reach light speed,that mass should increase to an infinite amount,and occupy all space. This would also mean that they require an infinite amount of energy to do so. But as we all know(without doubt) that when we turn on a simple LED torch,all of space is no occupied by photon's,nor is an infinite amount of energy drawn from our torch batteries.

I often wonder why so much money and time is spent on these well educated people that look for answers to these puzzleing questions,when a child with his $2.00 wall mart torch has already show what the answer is. It is no wonder it cost so much to live these days,when billions of dollars are spent looking for things that a child can show.

Now Mark,here is another question about photons.--> What have they got to do with light? What is there function in regards to light starting from point A and reaching point B?

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Advanced and Delayed magnetic field's.
« Reply #66 on: January 03, 2015, 03:16:57 AM »
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Offline synchro1

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Re: Advanced and Delayed magnetic field's.
« Reply #67 on: January 03, 2015, 05:24:27 AM »
This may sound trivial: Time and Space are connected. What connects them? Gravity! Everything that ever was or will be is somewhere in space, that includes the future. The future's connected to the present by gravity. Gravity travels faster then light, and straddles the event horizen. Magnet waves create perturbations in the gravity field that travel through the present to the future faster then light can travel. This may help explain how the mystery field arrived before it left!

Offline synchro1

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Re: Advanced and Delayed magnetic field's.
« Reply #68 on: January 03, 2015, 09:16:41 PM »
Quote from Jerry Bayles:

"Einstein based his entire theory of relativity on the self-limiting velocity of light. Borrowing from Maxwell's work and the Michelson-Morley experiment, Einstein chose the foundation of his theory to define all of space-time as being constructed on the inviolate limit of the speed of light. That is a dangerous position to take and it is no wonder to me that Einstein was adamant about his dislike of spooky-action at a distance and the probability mathematics in the quantum physics realm.

There is more to this universe (and the actions within that universe) than what is in the nature of the limiting speed of light. What is the ultimate dimension? It is a point. (Zero tensor). No time, no space and the speed related to that point can be anything. Probably zero and also infinite. That is the action associated with the quantum realm. All dimensions are connected firstly to a beginning point and therefore no dimension higher than a point can be chosen to be the necessary dimension(s) for the gravitational field or any other field. All local matter is thus connected to all other local matter through what I call non-local energy space where energy is infinite and time and distance are zero".




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Re: Advanced and Delayed magnetic field's.
« Reply #68 on: January 03, 2015, 09:16:41 PM »
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Offline MarkE

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Re: Advanced and Delayed magnetic field's.
« Reply #69 on: January 03, 2015, 10:04:19 PM »
One of the very reasons i dont use sim's. As you can see,to many theories and unknowns.
Unfortunately that amounts to an argument from ignorance.  If one sets unreasonable expectations on the capabilities of either a simulation method or an experiment method, then one sets themselves up for results that don't jive with physical reality.
Quote
So the question remains-do photons have mass. Well i look at the idea that NASA seems to think they could use large solar sails to propell space craft through space. Now,if the photon had no mass,then this idea wouldnt work,as it is based around that theory-oh ,another theory.
No, photons are known to have momentum.  That has been so since the discovery of the photoelectric effect.  Whether they possess momentum with zero mass or very, very, very small mass remains unresolved, and remains an important question.
Quote

Now,if they do have mass,then as they reach light speed,that mass should increase to an infinite amount,and occupy all space. This would also mean that they require an infinite amount of energy to do so.
But if they don't quite travel at light speed, then under special relativity the energy required to accelerate them is still finite.
Quote
But as we all know(without doubt) that when we turn on a simple LED torch,all of space is no occupied by photon's,nor is an infinite amount of energy drawn from our torch batteries.
Which is not new, and only conflicts with the special simultaneous requirements that you impose.
Quote


I often wonder why so much money and time is spent on these well educated people that look for answers to these puzzleing questions,when a child with his $2.00 wall mart torch has already show what the answer is. It is no wonder it cost so much to live these days,when billions of dollars are spent looking for things that a child can show.
Ironically, not that torch, not the solar panels on top of the Walmart, nor any of the products that Walmart sells with semiconductors in them would work without the science that you belittle.
Quote

Now Mark,here is another question about photons.--> What have they got to do with light? What is there function in regards to light starting from point A and reaching point B?
Photons are quantum particles with which is it possible to explain and account many electrodynamic phenomena such as the photoelectric effect / radiation pressure, etc.

Offline tinman

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Re: Advanced and Delayed magnetic field's.
« Reply #70 on: January 04, 2015, 05:11:47 AM »
The speed of light is not a constant,nor are eletromagnetic waves. Both light and magnetic waves travel slower in a preasurised enviroment,or an enviroment with a gravitational field than they do in a vacume. The very fact that they dont as yet know if photons have mass or not,leaves holes in physics,and these holes are justified by the term !theory and variables! To many unanswered questions in physics. One that really gets the mind thinking is-why is there much more matter than antimatter ,where is the equal in the opposite there?.

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Re: Advanced and Delayed magnetic field's.
« Reply #70 on: January 04, 2015, 05:11:47 AM »
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Offline MarkE

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Re: Advanced and Delayed magnetic field's.
« Reply #71 on: January 04, 2015, 06:09:30 AM »
The speed of light is not a constant,nor are eletromagnetic waves. Both light and magnetic waves travel slower in a preasurised enviroment,or an enviroment with a gravitational field than they do in a vacume. The very fact that they dont as yet know if photons have mass or not,leaves holes in physics,and these holes are justified by the term !theory and variables! To many unanswered questions in physics. One that really gets the mind thinking is-why is there much more matter than antimatter ,where is the equal in the opposite there?.
You are back to arguing from ignorance.

Offline tinman

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Re: Advanced and Delayed magnetic field's.
« Reply #72 on: January 04, 2015, 10:54:25 AM »
You are back to arguing from ignorance.
It is not me that is being ignorant Mark. It is hard for me to take the word or listen to  some one who dosnt know what the actual shape of a magnetic field is around a permanent magnet. Do you know that an electromagnets field shape is a little different to that of a PM-please see the thread magnetic mith's and misconception's.

I would appreciate you carrying out the small task i asked of you on that thread,as i have spent time and money showing you what you wanted to see-although to no avail apparently

Offline MarkE

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Re: Advanced and Delayed magnetic field's.
« Reply #73 on: January 04, 2015, 11:07:59 AM »
It is not me that is being ignorant Mark. It is hard for me to take the word or listen to  some one who dosnt know what the actual shape of a magnetic field is around a permanent magnet. Do you know that an electromagnets field shape is a little different to that of a PM-please see the thread magnetic mith's and misconception's.

I would appreciate you carrying out the small task i asked of you on that thread,as i have spent time and money showing you what you wanted to see-although to no avail apparently
Tinman what you are doing is offering a classical logical fallacy that is known as an:  "Argument from ignorance."

As to the magnetic field shape, iron filings do a nice job of mapping out the field.  The figure eight idea is betrayed as false by experiments that have been conducted thousands and thousands of times.

Offline tinman

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Re: Advanced and Delayed magnetic field's.
« Reply #74 on: January 04, 2015, 11:25:48 AM »
Tinman what you are doing is offering a classical logical fallacy that is known as an:  "Argument from ignorance."

As to the magnetic field shape, iron filings do a nice job of mapping out the field.  The figure eight idea is betrayed as false by experiments that have been conducted thousands and thousands of times.
Iron filings are one of the worse things you can use to show a magnetic field,and the reason for that i have explained before. I would like to see an actual magnetic mapping video,insted of countless cartoon pictures showing incorrect field shape of a PM magnet. I will continue this debate on the magnetic miths and misconceptions thread-where it belong's.

 

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