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Author Topic: Advanced and Delayed magnetic field's.  (Read 38960 times)

Offline NoBull

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Re: Advanced and Delayed magnetic field's.
« Reply #15 on: December 28, 2014, 08:10:48 AM »
So how is it that this changing magnetic field appears in the secondary before it dose in the primary?
It is not a time machine. The primary is delayed in respect to the secondary, not the other way.

Your system has tiny air gaps which represent huge reluctances to the flux (R4 and R5).
It is not surprising that magnetic flux through R8 is only several percent of the flux through R3 when the proportionality of these reluctances is considered. 

When the coils are loaded then R3 and R8 are converted into delayed MMF sources.
The coupling factor between these coils is very low.

The delays between coils wound over R3 and R8 are easily accountable, too, by the different resistances/loads and inductances of the coils.

The larger the coil's resistance, the shorter the net flux change delay*.  This is because a larger resistance dissipates the induced current quicker in the same inductance.  It is this induced current that is responsible for creating the opposing flux, so when this current dies down - so does the opposition.
Superconductors have no resistance so the induced current in them never dies down and the opposition to flux changes persists forever, thus the delay to the external flux change never ends and the net flux through a shorted zero-resistance coil never changes (is constant).

These delays are the basis of operation of the shaded pole motors which cause a flux change delay by a shorted coil in the stator.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MyEnwJ1Lazg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shaded-pole_motor

In this experiment the phase difference is only several degrees, but the principle is the same.
Nothing new.


*More precisely it is about the L/R ratio.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Advanced and Delayed magnetic field's.
« Reply #15 on: December 28, 2014, 08:10:48 AM »

Offline MarkE

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Re: Advanced and Delayed magnetic field's.
« Reply #16 on: December 28, 2014, 08:13:54 AM »
Here is the drag test TK requested,and also the difference between the darg of steel laminated cores and ferrite cores.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uAXtB_7RkEg
Nice experiment.

Offline tinman

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Re: Advanced and Delayed magnetic field's.
« Reply #17 on: December 28, 2014, 11:55:04 AM »
It is not a time machine. The primary is delayed in respect to the secondary, not the other way.

Your system has tiny air gaps which represent huge reluctances to the flux (R4 and R5).
It is not surprising that magnetic flux through R8 is only several percent of the flux through R3 when the proportionality of these reluctances is considered. 

When the coils are loaded then R3 and R8 are converted into delayed MMF sources.
The coupling factor between these coils is very low.

The delays between coils wound over R3 and R8 are easily accountable, too, by the different resistances/loads and inductances of the coils.

The larger the coil's resistance, the shorter the net flux change delay*.  This is because a larger resistance dissipates the induced current quicker in the same inductance.  It is this induced current that is responsible for creating the opposing flux, so when this current dies down - so does the opposition.
Superconductors have no resistance so the induced current in them never dies down and the opposition to flux changes persists forever, thus the delay to the external flux change never ends and the net flux through a shorted zero-resistance coil never changes (is constant).

These delays are the basis of operation of the shaded pole motors which cause a flux change delay by a shorted coil in the stator.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MyEnwJ1Lazg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shaded-pole_motor

In this experiment the phase difference is only several degrees, but the principle is the same.
Nothing new.


*More precisely it is about the L/R ratio.
The primary is not delayed in respect to the secondary.The primary remains stable regardless of load on the secondary. The scope is being triggered via a seperate coil(as can be seen in the video),and the primary's coil phase dose not change in respect to that of the trigger coil. It is the secondary that is being advanced in phase,and that advance increases as the resistance of the load increases. You will also see the white line's on the magnet's,and they are there so as i can use an LED strobe to also check the phase shift on the primary coil.Once again,there is no shift of the white line's position when using the strobe on the primary coil,regardless of load on the secondary.The secondary's current builds befor that of the primary,and the advanced phase shif is dependent on the resistive load placed on the seconary coil.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Advanced and Delayed magnetic field's.
« Reply #17 on: December 28, 2014, 11:55:04 AM »
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Offline MarkE

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Re: Advanced and Delayed magnetic field's.
« Reply #18 on: December 28, 2014, 12:14:11 PM »
The primary is not delayed in respect to the secondary.The primary remains stable regardless of load on the secondary. The scope is being triggered via a seperate coil(as can be seen in the video),and the primary's coil phase dose not change in respect to that of the trigger coil. It is the secondary that is being advanced in phase,and that advance increases as the resistance of the load increases. You will also see the white line's on the magnet's,and they are there so as i can use an LED strobe to also check the phase shift on the primary coil.Once again,there is no shift of the white line's position when using the strobe on the primary coil,regardless of load on the secondary.The secondary's current builds befor that of the primary,and the advanced phase shif is dependent on the resistive load placed on the seconary coil.
Tinman aif you have access to a circuit simulation program ( there are a number of free ones on the net ), then you can see that for a parallel L/R circuit driven by a current source, IE high impedance that where R is large compared to jwL the voltage is almost in phase with the current.  As the resistance gets gets small compared to jwL the voltage lags the current.  The key here is as nobull has stated:  The weak coupling between the two coils.  That drives the impedance, the amplitude loss, and the observed phase lead when the second coil is lightly loaded.

Offline ramset

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Re: Advanced and Delayed magnetic field's.
« Reply #19 on: December 28, 2014, 02:03:30 PM »
Simulators..


I think the problem here goes all the way back to the
"Problem here"


semantics ... we have grown to use certain phrases [Lenz delay}" to explain certain paths for experiment ...and certain persons know this but it drives them Nuts [like most of what we do here]


so they spend a zillion hours and a squillion words "teaching"...when perhaps it should just go back to magic...
when it comes to what we are trying to do ..
beat Lentz
Beat friction
Beat Gravity
beat "known Laws of magnetism"
Beat Bouyancy
etc etc etc


welcome to Overunity.com ...this is what we do here
and we don't expect simulators to be of much use...
experiments "yes"
simulations ..not so much ...here perhaps we will add to the knowledge base of the simulator
maybe not today ...
?


is that arrogance??
No
Its Human nature..we were born this way.........




thx
Chet



Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Advanced and Delayed magnetic field's.
« Reply #19 on: December 28, 2014, 02:03:30 PM »
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Offline MarkE

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Re: Advanced and Delayed magnetic field's.
« Reply #20 on: December 28, 2014, 02:26:58 PM »
Simulators..


I think the problem here goes all the way back to the
"Problem here"


semantics ... we have grown to use certain phrases [Lenz delay}" to explain certain paths for experiment ...and certain persons know this but it drives them Nuts [like most of what we do here]


so they spend a zillion hours and a squillion words "teaching"...when perhaps it should just go back to magic...
when it comes to what we are trying to do ..
beat Lentz
Beat friction
Beat Gravity
beat "known Laws of magnetism"
Beat Bouyancy
etc etc etc
What separates those who have a chance of advancing knowledge from those who have virtually no chance is the ones who have a chance are careful to learn what our current understanding is and how that understanding came about.  From there they can see where there may be inconsistencies and / or issues that have not already been thoroughly evaluated.
Quote
 

welcome to Overunity.com ...this is what we do here
and we don't expect simulators to be of much use...
experiments "yes"
simulations ..not so much ...here perhaps we will add to the knowledge base of the simulator
maybe not today ...
?


is that arrogance??
No
Its Human nature..we were born this way.........
If a simulator that conforms to conventional understanding reproduces an observation then there is a very good chance that the conventional view accounts for the observation.  It is a form of deliberate ignorance to reject capable tools because one hopes that the tools overlook something. Those hoping to find the exceptional should use whatever methods they can to separate out the merely routine from curiosities.
Quote



thx
Chet

Offline ramset

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Re: Advanced and Delayed magnetic field's.
« Reply #21 on: December 28, 2014, 02:41:49 PM »

Mark E
You have such a gift..A knack for stating the profoundly obvious...

 it pays to pay attention...


but you already know that.


thx
Chet

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Advanced and Delayed magnetic field's.
« Reply #21 on: December 28, 2014, 02:41:49 PM »
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Offline tinman

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Re: Advanced and Delayed magnetic field's.
« Reply #22 on: December 28, 2014, 02:47:40 PM »
What separates those who have a chance of advancing knowledge from those who have virtually no chance is the ones who have a chance are careful to learn what our current understanding is and how that understanding came about.  From there they can see where there may be inconsistencies and / or issues that have not already been thoroughly evaluated.If a simulator that conforms to conventional understanding reproduces an observation then there is a very good chance that the conventional view accounts for the observation.  It is a form of deliberate ignorance to reject capable tools because one hopes that the tools overlook something. Those hoping to find the exceptional should use whatever methods they can to separate out the merely routine from curiosities.
I have no time for simulator's-never have,never will--> it is a lazy mans tool. How do you expect to find the unknown using a device based around only known perameter's. A device that dosnt take into account simple things provided by nature itself. Nothing!and i mean nothing! is as exact as the DUT itself,being used or tested in the enviroment it is in. Here is a simple test for your simulator-please simulate the electrical impulses sent to the human brain while that person is eating ice cream. Thats right,only a machine(test equipment) that is attached to the actual device(the human eating the ice cream)can detect exactly what those impulses are,and the reactions going on in the machine.

Sorry,but no sim's for me-->DUT only.

Offline MarkE

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Re: Advanced and Delayed magnetic field's.
« Reply #23 on: December 28, 2014, 03:11:46 PM »
I have no time for simulator's-never have,never will--> it is a lazy mans tool. How do you expect to find the unknown using a device based around only known perameter's. A device that dosnt take into account simple things provided by nature itself. Nothing!and i mean nothing! is as exact as the DUT itself,being used or tested in the enviroment it is in. Here is a simple test for your simulator-please simulate the electrical impulses sent to the human brain while that person is eating ice cream. Thats right,only a machine(test equipment) that is attached to the actual device(the human eating the ice cream)can detect exactly what those impulses are,and the reactions going on in the machine.

Sorry,but no sim's for me-->DUT only.
Tinman simulators are incredibly useful tools for cutting down lab time.  Mistakes are as easy to make in measurements as they are in simulations.  One checks the other.  When they agree we have high confidence in what we think we see.  When they don't agree it is time to look more closely.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Advanced and Delayed magnetic field's.
« Reply #23 on: December 28, 2014, 03:11:46 PM »
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Offline MarkE

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Re: Advanced and Delayed magnetic field's.
« Reply #24 on: December 28, 2014, 03:13:53 PM »
Mark E
You have such a gift..A knack for stating the profoundly obvious...

 it pays to pay attention...


but you already know that.


thx
Chet
And yet so often here we see people reject the "profoundly obvious".

Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Advanced and Delayed magnetic field's.
« Reply #25 on: December 28, 2014, 03:28:06 PM »
So if you have someone showing a circuit (for example; could be a mechanical device, etc) that is claimed to be "OU" in some manner, and then that circuit is simulated by a circuit simulator like Falstad or LTSpice, say, and the simulator does _the same things_ that the actual circuit does, in terms of the claimant's measurements and phenomena, but the simulator also shows that it is not "OU", because the simulator can make more and more accurate measurements of various parameters ... who is right?

The statement that a simulator can't show OU behaviour unless some error is made somewhere, is what some of us call "Ibison's Law", after Michael Ibison at ETI. But that's obvious since the simulators are designed around well-understood conventional physics... and also it is not the issue. When there is _no actual device_ that performs differently from the properly constructed, underunity simulation, then you'd be well put to accept the results of the simulation.

Every time you get on a commercial airplane, you are trusting your very life to simulations. The aircraft are designed using them, the pilots are trained using them, the weather they fly through is forecast using them, and more.  You don't dare perform actual stalls in a real commercial airliner or deliberately fail an engine on takeoff ... so how do airline pilots learn how to recover from stalls and unusual attitudes, how do they learn how to deal with engine fires, fuel starvation, structural or component failures? They do it in regularly scheduled, at least twice yearly, _simulator sessions_.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Advanced and Delayed magnetic field's.
« Reply #25 on: December 28, 2014, 03:28:06 PM »
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Offline shylo

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Re: Advanced and Delayed magnetic field's.
« Reply #26 on: December 28, 2014, 03:47:15 PM »
Hi TM, Thanks for putting out those vids, I think you should have started without any core in place first to see the rotor consumption by itself. Also it was interesting to see how the ferrite compared to the steel.
Just a question, can the ferrite be ground up and then glued back together to make a core of any shape we desire?
Looking forward to more of your tests' Great work !
artv

Offline Kator01

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Re: Advanced and Delayed magnetic field's.
« Reply #27 on: December 28, 2014, 04:09:13 PM »
tinman,

you have stepped into a difficult field of investigation. It took me awhile to remember what I had experience in the past
with a tesla-transmitter when I saw your scheme
Your setup is similar to a magnetic loose coupled bandfilter. with two resonance-frequencies ( fig. C), see pic atteached.
The loose coupling is because of the small air-gap.

I was at a loss of explanation of some strange behavior of this system at that time until I showed my setup to a electronic hf-specialist who cleared this up.

Regards

Kator01


Offline dieter

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Re: Advanced and Delayed magnetic field's.
« Reply #28 on: December 29, 2014, 05:16:01 AM »
thanks for the vid, looking forward to see more about this.


Peace


Offline tinman

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Re: Advanced and Delayed magnetic field's.
« Reply #29 on: December 29, 2014, 10:39:58 AM »

Every time you get on a commercial airplane, you are trusting your very life to simulations. The aircraft are designed using them, the pilots are trained using them, the weather they fly through is forecast using them, and more.  You don't dare perform actual stalls in a real commercial airliner or deliberately fail an engine on takeoff ... so how do airline pilots learn how to recover from stalls and unusual attitudes, how do they learn how to deal with engine fires, fuel starvation, structural or component failures? They do it in regularly scheduled, at least twice yearly, _simulator sessions_.
The here and now is fantastic TK,but the wright brothers had no such simulator,and yet there plane flew.
Simulator's are the wet dream of the real thing-there is just no comparison ;)

Im in no way infering anything OU here,in fact,this machine is very power hungry and inefficient. Im looking for effect,not efficiency.The one thing i have shown very clearly is the difference in drag between ferrite and steel core's. To me,that makes the whole exercise well worth it.But i am going to continue to look a little more at what is happening in regards to the magnetic field's,in fact,im quite enjoying working with this simple little machine.

 

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