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News announcements and other topics => News => Topic started by: Overunityguide on December 24, 2014, 11:49:39 AM

Title: T-(Shaped) Turbine, Which uses Centrifugal Force
Post by: Overunityguide on December 24, 2014, 11:49:39 AM
Hi All,
 
Most recently I went to Switzerland on vacation and visited the Large Hydro-Power Dam Structure, called the 'Grande Dixence'.
 
Since then I read a couple of articles on how Hydro-Power can be produced/extracted, what kind of turbine types exist and what parameters and formula's for calculating Net Power are involved.
 
I also did some reading on Viktor Schauberger his inventions, and fiddled with the idea of combining a bit of his work on 'Centrifugal Force' with common Hydro-Power Turbine concepts.
 
This is what a came up with... The basic idea is fairly simple. (although it might be challenging to build..) The idea is to rotate two Francis/Pelton turbines (mounted on a T Like Structure) right above a water basin and feet both rotating turbines with water/hydro power generated by centrifugal force. (Instead of Gravity, which is normally used in Hydro-Power Stations)
 
So I thought I would share it with you guys. (Like some sort of a Christmas Present)
 
Please see both my T-(Shaped) Turbine Images and decide for yourself what such a structure might be capable of.
 
The formula's for calculating power output are in the drawings as well.
 
A Merry Christmas to You All!
Title: Re: T-(Shaped) Turbine, Which uses Centrifugal Force
Post by: quartz on December 24, 2014, 01:02:54 PM
You should take a look this page (http://overunity.com/9445/centrifugual-water-generator-idear/topicseen/#.VJqo9f8CANA)
Title: Re: T-(Shaped) Turbine, Which uses Centrifugal Force
Post by: Overunityguide on December 25, 2014, 10:54:04 AM
Hi Quartz,

Thanks for the link. It looks like Cherryman was on the same track a while ago. :)

His first design with multiple rotating water wheels looks nice, but in my opinion lags the ability for pressure build-up next to a turbine inlet. When water reaches the first vane on one of the rotating water wheels, the water could go virtually anywhere... (especially when the rotating feed pipes/penstocks are not exactly horizontal, as in his design)

Furthermore his second design comes more in the direction to what I came up with, but the rotating horizontal pipes/penstocks are way too short in my opinion.

Please look at the power figures (as presented in my calculations) where we can use a rotating feed pipe/penstock of 5 meter and rotate it with 3 rps (rounds per second), which gives us a Centrifugal Force in the Horizontal Direction of 90,5 x Normal Gravity! With those parameters a Turbine could eventually produce a mechanical output of 30MW...

Anyways good to see that more people have given the same idea some thoughts in the past.
Title: Re: T-(Shaped) Turbine, Which uses Centrifugal Force
Post by: quartz on December 25, 2014, 12:19:51 PM
This is a good indicator when several people have similar ideas
Title: Re: T-(Shaped) Turbine, Which uses Centrifugal Force
Post by: telecom on December 25, 2014, 06:19:51 PM
Hi All,
 
Most recently I went to Switzerland on vacation and visited the Large Hydro-Power Dam Structure, called the 'Grande Dixence'.
 
Since then I read a couple of articles on how Hydro-Power can be produced/extracted, what kind of turbine types exist and what parameters and formula's for calculating Net Power are involved.
 
I also did some reading on Viktor Schauberger his inventions, and fiddled with the idea of combining a bit of his work on 'Centrifugal Force' with common Hydro-Power Turbine concepts.
 
This is what a came up with... The basic idea is fairly simple. (although it might be challenging to build..) The idea is to rotate two Francis/Pelton turbines (mounted on a T Like Structure) right above a water basin and feet both rotating turbines with water/hydro power generated by centrifugal force. (Instead of Gravity, which is normally used in Hydro-Power Stations)
 
So I thought I would share it with you guys. (Like some sort of a Christmas Present)
 
Please see both my T-(Shaped) Turbine Images and decide for yourself what such a structure might be capable of.
 
The formula's for calculating power output are in the drawings as well.
 
A Merry Christmas to You All!

Hi, but rotating the whole assembly will also take lots of power.
How do you know that the generator part will produce more power than the one consumed by the motor ?
Regards
Title: Re: T-(Shaped) Turbine, Which uses Centrifugal Force
Post by: Overunityguide on December 26, 2014, 10:10:15 AM
Hi Telecom,
 
Rotating the whole assembly will take some input power indeed. (especially when started) Although I don't think it takes 'lots of power' to keep it rotating. This because once the system is started-up, it acts more like a Giant Flywheel structure which needs to be kept moving. The only direct contact with the  water is at the center of the water basin and rotates 'relatively' slow in de example I provided. (only 3 rps) The main power which the turbines are running on is mostly Centrifugal Force. My estimate would be that such a system, (2 x 30MW at the Turbines) will only consume around 30-300 kW at the Motor/Input side to sustain rotation once started (But that is only an estimate...)
 
The plans as provided are purely conceptual and a lot of testing needs to be done. But the Mechanical Turbine Power Figures are based on actual Hydro-Power calculation methods.
Title: Re: T-(Shaped) Turbine, Which uses Centrifugal Force
Post by: telecom on December 26, 2014, 03:30:36 PM
Hi,
in this case can you provide some calculations for the tabletop model of your design.
For example, for it to generate up to 2 kwts by consuming only, say, up to 400 Watts.
What would be the dimensions of such a machine?
Regards
Title: Re: T-(Shaped) Turbine, Which uses Centrifugal Force
Post by: AB Hammer on December 26, 2014, 04:27:04 PM
@ Overunityguide

As you spin the system. The water itself will vortex and fight against you. Also with the break walls will cause a negative turbulence in the way you have them placed.

So! My advice you need to ramp Spiro your breaks to guide the water back to the center in a smooth flow. This will narrow the vortex and you need to add a guide cone down into the water in the middle with an Archimedes screw effect. This will help you but it still may not be enough. You are asking a lot out of CF help to overdrive a system. Here is a system I designed that used fluid in hopes to self run but could not get enough out of the test to go further. But this may help with some more ideas.

Alan

PS wide to narrow you water flow in the arms to become jets for maximum pressure.
Title: Re: T-(Shaped) Turbine, Which uses Centrifugal Force
Post by: Dave45 on December 26, 2014, 11:55:53 PM
You could vent the turbines in such a way as to help in the acceleration.
Title: Re: T-(Shaped) Turbine, Which uses Centrifugal Force
Post by: Overunityguide on December 27, 2014, 10:19:13 AM
Hi AB Hammer,
 
The Stationary Break Vanes are meant to be there to prevent a rotating movement inside the water basin. This because when the water is moved/turned around inside the basin, it will create a vortex. This vortex in the water basin will keep the water away from the T-(Shaped) Water inlet. If the water keeps away from this inlet, the water will run out of the system and the turbines come to a complete stop. This is what we don't want. Of course with the Stationary Break Vanes in place the water needs to go from no movement to a turning movement inside the rotating feed pipes/penstocks at the center of the water basin. This will create a small vortex which I think will counter force the input rotation a little, which needs to be overcome by the input motor/drive unit mechanism. But I think that this counter force will not be that big at only 3 rps at the center of the water basin.
 
The second thing I want to tell is that I don't think that such a system can be made to run itself purely based on water flow that easy. This is the reason why I have chosen the input motor/turbine output route.
 
And Yes I am asking a lot of the Centrifugal Force, But it can Give us a Lot also... (if you build it the right way)
 
The last thing I want to comment on, is that I think it is not a good idea to go from wide to narrow at the turbine outlets and create jets for propulsion. This because it will obstruct the water flow going to the turbines in such a way that it will prevent serious power from being produced at the turbine place. But on the other hand, if you vent them in the proper direction it can help.
 
I am not hoping to be a Negative Nancy on this, but I do think we need to look a bit different at things compared to what already is being tried in the past (and possible didn't work)
 
Title: Re: T-(Shaped) Turbine, Which uses Centrifugal Force
Post by: AB Hammer on December 27, 2014, 04:15:59 PM
Overunityguide

 You need to study about river flow with dikes and you will see a bit more my suggestion. I was in the US Coast Guard and spent 3 years on the Mississippi river. Our job was river navigation. The better you make the water flow. The better the water will work for you and not against you.


Alan
Title: Re: T-(Shaped) Turbine, Which uses Centrifugal Force
Post by: Overunityguide on December 28, 2014, 10:09:23 AM
Hi AB Hammer,
 
That is true for sure… Looking at nature is always a good thing to do. Viktor Schauberger has also spend thousands of hours looking on how salmon where able to swim up river…
 
But I think that you are probably right about the design of the Stationary Water Break Vanes, they might be a bit more curved to direct the water to the center of the water basin more easily. But I guess for now the only thing I did so far, was to share the conceptual idea…
Title: Re: T-(Shaped) Turbine, Which uses Centrifugal Force
Post by: Overunityguide on December 28, 2014, 10:41:32 AM
A lot of people are asking me how I came up with the Centrifugal Force Figures as being presented in both T-(Shaped) Turbine Images. I am sorry to hear if it wasn’t clear in the first place. Please see my ‘Centrifugal Force Calculation.png’ Attachment, which will have the exact calculation method in it.
Title: Re: T-(Shaped) Turbine, Which uses Centrifugal Force
Post by: Overunityguide on December 29, 2014, 09:18:12 AM
I also found a useful tool for calculating Centrifugal Force online.
it can be found at: http://www.calctool.org/CALC/phys/newtonian/centrifugal (http://www.calctool.org/CALC/phys/newtonian/centrifugal)
The tool can give you direct results in g or m/s^2
 
See the Images for the parameters related to the T-(Shaped) Turbine.
Title: Re: T-(Shaped) Turbine, Which uses Centrifugal Force
Post by: Overunityguide on December 29, 2014, 09:57:29 AM
Hi,
in this case can you provide some calculations for the tabletop model of your design.
For example, for it to generate up to 2 kwts by consuming only, say, up to 400 Watts.
What would be the dimensions of such a machine?
Regards
Hi Telecom,
 
Sorry for the Delay in my Reaction. But to Create a Table Top - Model (depending on the size of your table :) ) I would suggest the following parameters:
 
(I shouldn't go lower than a 0.5 m Radius and 10 Litre/Second Flow Rate, because then the output power becomes below usable figures)
 
Parameters:
Rotation Radius 0.5 meter (Feed Pipe/Penstock radius)
Rotation speed 6 rps (Rounds per Second)
Turbine Flow Rate 10 Litre/Second (0.01 m^3/s)
 
Centrifugal Acceleration: (@ 6 rps and @ 5m)
710.612 (m/s^2) / 2 = 355.306 (m/s^2)
 
Hydro-Power Calculation for Each Turbine:
1510.05 Watts =  0.85 x 1000 x 0.01 x 355.306 x 0.5
 
Total Power:
1510.05 x 2 = 3020.10 Watts
Title: Re: T-(Shaped) Turbine, Which uses Centrifugal Force
Post by: AB Hammer on December 29, 2014, 03:35:23 PM
Overunityguide

 I keep thinking of the stress that 3 rps puts on a structure and then I thought of your device at 12 foot wide. From a structure point of view, you are going to need top mounts for you generators or they will rip out of your machine.  When it come to CF the further away from the center the greater CF effect. So the larger it can be made, the slower it will be allowed to spin.


Alan
Title: Re: T-(Shaped) Turbine, Which uses Centrifugal Force
Post by: telecom on December 29, 2014, 04:51:13 PM
Hi Telecom,
 
Sorry for the Delay in my Reaction. But to Create a Table Top - Model (depending on the size of your table :) ) I would suggest the following parameters:
 
(I shouldn't go lower than a 0.5 m Radius and 10 Litre/Second Flow Rate, because then the output power becomes below usable figures)
 
Parameters:
Rotation Radius 0.5 meter (Feed Pipe/Penstock radius)
Rotation speed 6 rps (Rounds per Second)
Turbine Flow Rate 10 Litre/Second (0.01 m^3/s)
 
Centrifugal Acceleration: (@ 6 rps and @ 5m)
710.612 (m/s^2) / 2 = 355.306 (m/s^2)
 
Hydro-Power Calculation for Each Turbine:
1510.05 Watts =  0.85 x 1000 x 0.01 x 355.306 x 0.5
 
Total Power:
1510.05 x 2 = 3020.10 Watts

Hi,
what should be the dia of the pipe?
Also, how do I take out power from the turbines/generators - they are rotating
at 360 RPM???
How do I connect the wires???
Regards
Title: Re: T-(Shaped) Turbine, Which uses Centrifugal Force
Post by: Overunityguide on December 30, 2014, 10:49:45 AM
@ AB Hammer,
 
From a structure point of view I think that there must be some optimum. If you build it too big and spin it too fast, no structure will hold. And you are right about the turbines/generators. You want to place them at the circumference of the rotating Feed Pipes/Penstocks where the Centrifugal Force is on its maximum. Because of that position, the stress exerted on the Turbine/Generator will also be on its maximum, so the Turbine Mount also needs to be fairly solid.
 
(It can be challenging to build, but I don't think it’s impossible...)
Title: Re: T-(Shaped) Turbine, Which uses Centrifugal Force
Post by: Overunityguide on December 30, 2014, 10:59:25 AM
@ Telecom,
 
For a Flow Rate of 10 Litre/Second I can imagine that the pipe diameter must be somewhere around 20 centimeters. And to take power from your (rotating) generators, a slip ring arrangement can be added to the system.
 
(I know they are not presented on the original T-(Shaped) Turbine Images, but these are more like a presentation of the conceptual idea)
Title: Re: T-(Shaped) Turbine, Which uses Centrifugal Force
Post by: Overunityguide on December 30, 2014, 11:12:46 AM
I am planning of doing a video of my Test Setup. See the Image for my Test Setup
Title: Re: T-(Shaped) Turbine, Which uses Centrifugal Force
Post by: AB Hammer on December 30, 2014, 02:41:53 PM
Nice work so far. I like seeing good construction. Water pumps need priming and I wonder how you are going to prime your system.
Title: Re: T-(Shaped) Turbine, Which uses Centrifugal Force
Post by: Newton II on December 30, 2014, 03:04:15 PM

If I understand the figure correctly,  you are expecting the centrifugal force to lift the water  from center pipe, which is vertical part of 'T'.   But practically when you rotate the entire thing,  water at horizontal portion comes out due to CF ( if water is present initially),  after that air enters from the turbine side and fills the 'T' portion.   Water will not be lifted up from the 'T'.   

You will get continuous water flow in the 'T'  only if centrifugal force developed is more than the force created by external atmospheric pressure.  To achieve this you may have to rotate the entire thing with terrific, abnormal speed because the external atmospheric pressure which is 1 kg/cm.sq  is quiet  a huge pressure.

Instead you can fill  the 'T'  with  hundreds of thin  flexible capillary tubes   so that water will be lifted up in the 'T' due to capillary force.   So  that  the centrifugal  force  has to only  push the water towards turbine  for power generation.   Only then you can get continuous flow of water for power generation.

As per the following wiki page,  a  0.4mm capillary tube can lift the water upto 70mm.   So,   if you use a bundle of 0.4mm capillary tubes,  your suction lift  should be less than70mm.
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capillary_action
Title: Re: T-(Shaped) Turbine, Which uses Centrifugal Force
Post by: telecom on December 30, 2014, 05:08:11 PM
I am planning of doing a video of my Test Setup. See the Image for my Test Setup

This looks very impressive!
Looking forward for the video!
Regards
Title: Re: T-(Shaped) Turbine, Which uses Centrifugal Force
Post by: Overunityguide on December 31, 2014, 10:00:51 AM
If I understand the figure correctly,  you are expecting the centrifugal force to lift the water  from center pipe, which is vertical part of 'T'.   But practically when you rotate the entire thing,  water at horizontal portion comes out due to CF ( if water is present initially),  after that air enters from the turbine side and fills the 'T' portion.   Water will not be lifted up from the 'T'.   

@ Newton II,
 
Because of the Centrifugal Force working the water out, a vacuum will be created at the T-(Shaped) Turbine its water inlet. This vacuum will suck water in, so that it keeps running... (Believe me I have tried, it works!  :) ) But thanks of course for the capillary tubes suggestion. There can be done nice things with them...
 
Please wait and see how the system gets primed, when I have uploaded my video.
Title: Re: T-(Shaped) Turbine, Which uses Centrifugal Force
Post by: Overunityguide on December 31, 2014, 10:55:13 AM
As promised... Here I have my T-(Shaped) Turbine Test Videos uploaded:

T-(Shaped) Turbine: http://youtu.be/qEvB2qnXFfo (http://youtu.be/qEvB2qnXFfo)
The System Getting MAD: http://youtu.be/zqogukfonM0 (http://youtu.be/zqogukfonM0)
Title: Re: T-(Shaped) Turbine, Which uses Centrifugal Force
Post by: AB Hammer on December 31, 2014, 02:51:32 PM
Overunityguide

 Good videos but I would suggest a battery powered drill to make it a bit more dramatic.  ;)


Alan
Title: Re: T-(Shaped) Turbine, Which uses Centrifugal Force
Post by: telecom on December 31, 2014, 05:18:24 PM
As promised... Here I have my T-(Shaped) Turbine Test Videos uploaded:

T-(Shaped) Turbine: http://youtu.be/qEvB2qnXFfo (http://youtu.be/qEvB2qnXFfo)
The System Getting MAD: http://youtu.be/zqogukfonM0 (http://youtu.be/zqogukfonM0)

It performs beyond my wildest dreams!
You can attach a bicycle type sprocket with a crank to help it rotating faster,
but otherwise it works great!
Regards
Title: Re: T-(Shaped) Turbine, Which uses Centrifugal Force
Post by: AB Hammer on December 31, 2014, 07:14:16 PM
It performs beyond my wildest dreams!
You can attach a bicycle type sprocket with a crank to help it rotating faster,
but otherwise it works great!
Regards

 When you understand water pumps you will find that most of them are Centrifugal. That is the reason they need primed and the reason I had no doubt that it would pump. The concept of putting generators in the system is what is cool. But will it be enough to be a viable energy supplier? This is what is hoped for.   Here is a link of a search that may give a few more ideas.  I typed in (Centrifugal Water pumps design)

https://www.google.com/search?q=Water+pumps+design&biw=1920&bih=888&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=yzikVP_7IdivyATz3ICgAw&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAg#tbm=isch&q=Centrifugal+Water+pumps+design&imgdii=_

Alan
Title: Re: T-(Shaped) Turbine, Which uses Centrifugal Force
Post by: cipbranea on December 31, 2014, 07:29:55 PM
You can start it like this one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZiMtFWkFgEw. Notice the spinning effect produced by the nozzles.

Title: Re: T-(Shaped) Turbine, Which uses Centrifugal Force
Post by: Overunityguide on January 01, 2015, 11:18:17 AM
When you understand water pumps you will find that most of them are Centrifugal. That is the reason they need primed and the reason I had no doubt that it would pump. The concept of putting generators in the system is what is cool. But will it be enough to be a viable energy supplier? This is what is hoped for.   Here is a link of a search that may give a few more ideas.  I typed in (Centrifugal Water pumps design)

https://www.google.com/search?q=Water+pumps+design&biw=1920&bih=888&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=yzikVP_7IdivyATz3ICgAw&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAg#tbm=isch&q=Centrifugal+Water+pumps+design&imgdii=_ (https://www.google.com/search?q=Water+pumps+design&biw=1920&bih=888&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=yzikVP_7IdivyATz3ICgAw&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAg#tbm=isch&q=Centrifugal+Water+pumps+design&imgdii=_)

Alan

To continue on the comment of AB Hammer, yes the system has the same operating principle as a Centrifugal Pump System. Except for the fact that a Centrifugal Pump its impeller is normally fully submerged under water. (which creates a lot of resistance) In case of the T-(Shaped) Turbine Concept, about 98% of the System is running above the water, what's also a good thing in my opinion...
Title: Re: T-(Shaped) Turbine, Which uses Centrifugal Force
Post by: AB Hammer on January 01, 2015, 04:37:15 PM
To continue on the comment of AB Hammer, yes the system has the same operating principle as a Centrifugal Pump System. Except for the fact the a Centrifugal Pump its impeller is normally fully submerged under water. (which creates a lot of resistance) In case of the T-(Shaped) Turbine Concept, about 98% of the System is running above the water, what's also a good thing in my opinion...

I feel a need to correct you on this. Sump pumps are under water and do not require priming for they self prime due to being under water. Well pumps are above the water and require priming and they need foot valves to keep from loosing prime. Both are centrifugal in design. I have worked with pumps from a young age, using them to supply water to the home or camp house.  Sump pumps tend to be used to get water out of unwanted places like basements for instant.  You will also need a foot Valve or you will need something like an  archimedes screw to be able to restart or you will have to re-prime at start up, each time you start up.  Most centrifugal pumps are above water and that is why priming is important. 

Don't get me wrong for I feel you are on a good path. I want to see you succeed. My help is from my experience from pumps to supply water to homes remove from basements and from the US Coast Guard which are all experienced fire fighters. Also as a Blacksmith/Armorer which works for construction of hand made machines from the past to today.  Not to mention 7 to 8 years of free energy approaches. If you have any questions? You can also PM to me if you don't want it on open forum. My help is yours as long as it doesn't get into my own personal projects of course. I am well in my 50s now days.

Almost forgot to say I also have a lot of experience repairing vacuum  cleaners and was service manager for Rainbow for the state of Arkansas which is a water filtration/capture vacuum cleaner. Yes understanding a vacuum is also important.

Alan       
Title: Re: T-(Shaped) Turbine, Which uses Centrifugal Force
Post by: Overunityguide on January 02, 2015, 09:19:57 AM
I feel a need to correct you on this. Sump pumps are under water and do not require priming for they self prime due to being under water. Well pumps are above the water and require priming and they need foot valves to keep from loosing prime. Both are centrifugal in design. I have worked with pumps from a young age, using them to supply water to the home or camp house.  Sump pumps tend to be used to get water out of unwanted places like basements for instant.  You will also need a foot Valve or you will need something like an  archimedes screw to be able to restart or you will have to re-prime at start up, each time you start up.  Most centrifugal pumps are above water and that is why priming is important. 

@ AB Hammer,
 
You sound like an experienced man ;)
 
I know about Sump and Well pumps, and I know that Sump Pumps are being submerged into water from the start. I also know that there is no priming needed for the Sump Pump to start and that on the opposite there is priming needed for a Well Pump to operate well. But that is not what I meant. I meant that every impeller from every centrifugal pump rotates inside a casing full of water. (Regardless of being a Sump/Well Pump) Most of the T-(Shaped) its rotating parts are not running inside of a casing full of water, but runs in the open air instead. (With less resistance in my opinion)
 
Placing a Foot Valve on the T-(Shaped) Water Inlet is a good idea of course. So that it needs to be primed only once...
 
And thanks for the offer on helping out on this subject. I guess that replication is the key to success, so replicating the prototypes can help a lot in my opinion. (The Scientific World also works with Peer to Peer Reviews...) If everyone (as a result of replicating) comes to the same conclusions, something really nice can come out of it I think...
Title: Re: T-(Shaped) Turbine, Which uses Centrifugal Force
Post by: vineet_kiran on January 02, 2015, 11:06:07 AM

I meant that every impeller from every centrifugal pump rotates inside a casing full of water. (Regardless of being a Sump/Well Pump) Most of the T-(Shaped) its rotating parts are not running inside of a casing full of water, but runs in the open air instead. (With less resistance in my opinion)



@overunityguide


I think you are right.


In a centrifugal pump,  the impeller developes centrifugal force which in turn pushes the water out to required head.  In that case when water is pushed out,  it (water) should exert equal force on impeller by reaction which follows directly from Newton's third law which in turn exerts force on prime mover sucking energy from prime mover, thereby conserving energy.

But in your 'T' shaped turbine, water molecules (mass of water) themselves attain centrifugal force in the absence of impeller.  The reaction force here will be centripetal force which is directed towards center and this force cannot act tangentially  on the 'T' to slow it down.  Hence you are eliminating the effect of reaction force.  Eliminating reaction force will definitely lead to overunity. The input energy you have to supply is to only overcome friction and any other losses which will be negligible.  Theoritically friction can be made zero. 

I had posted the following experiment based on the same principle.  Please have a look  and your thoughts :

http://overunity.com/12063/capillary-force-pump/


It is downloaded 1461 times. Don't know whether anybody has tried it.


Title: Re: T-(Shaped) Turbine, Which uses Centrifugal Force
Post by: Overunityguide on January 03, 2015, 12:02:43 PM

I had posted the following experiment based on the same principle.  Please have a look  and your thoughts :

http://overunity.com/12063/capillary-force-pump/ (http://overunity.com/12063/capillary-force-pump/)

It is downloaded 1461 times. Don't know whether anybody has tried it.

Hi vineet,
 
Thanks for sharing your idea. Theoretically I think it could work. (just like you are saying in the document: 'only of theoretical interest and not of any practical use')
But for a practical application, more water needs to be moved around I guess. (compared to what can be done by capillary tubes only)
 
So I guess we need to stick with some good old fashioned Priming...
After all, when the system is primed and it is up to speed, the priming action can be stopped. Because of this, it is only an initial investment.
 
Regards, OUG.
Title: Re: T-(Shaped) Turbine, Which uses Centrifugal Force
Post by: Overunityguide on January 04, 2015, 10:10:29 AM
For a good background reading on the Hydro-Power Calculation method used, I wanted to share the following link:
http://hydro-bpt.bangor.ac.uk/hydropower.php.en (http://hydro-bpt.bangor.ac.uk/hydropower.php.en)
Title: Re: T-(Shaped) Turbine, Which uses Centrifugal Force
Post by: Overunityguide on January 04, 2015, 10:17:00 AM
The following article, about a 'Guide to Hydropower' can also be really useful...
http://www.canyonhydro.com/guide/Guide%20to%20Hydropower.pdf (http://www.canyonhydro.com/guide/Guide%20to%20Hydropower.pdf)
Title: Re: T-(Shaped) Turbine, Which uses Centrifugal Force
Post by: Kator01 on January 04, 2015, 01:25:31 PM
Hello overunityguide,

 self-accelleration can only happen if tangential forces are allowed to develop.

This concept was proposed some years ago by Alan Cresswell, see fig. 11

http://web.archive.org/web/20120825053539/http://www.unifiedtheory.org.uk/ (http://web.archive.org/web/20120825053539/http://www.unifiedtheory.org.uk/)

I lost contact to Alan and I think he died.

Kator01
Title: Re: T-(Shaped) Turbine, Which uses Centrifugal Force
Post by: Overunityguide on January 05, 2015, 02:58:12 PM
After a lot of testing over the last two weeks, I think that there might be an overseen issue related to the Coriolis Effect taking place inside the T-(Shaped) Turbine. I say this because it looks like when the T-(Shaped) structure is rotated, that there is a higher Counter Force resisting rotation, when there is a higher Water Flow Rate.

I also found a couple of video's demonstrating this effect...

Coriolis Flow Meter Demonstration:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vxI9ibhVND8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vxI9ibhVND8)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NpX9oXsbOfw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NpX9oXsbOfw)
 
How Coriolis force affects a centrifugal pump:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bz0rWdn09sM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bz0rWdn09sM)
 
Visualization of the Coriolis and centrifugal forces:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=49JwbrXcPjc (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=49JwbrXcPjc)
Title: Re: T-(Shaped) Turbine, Which uses Centrifugal Force
Post by: vineet_kiran on January 06, 2015, 07:54:26 AM

After a lot of testing over the last two weeks, I think that there might be an overseen issue related to the Coriolis Effect taking place inside the T-(Shaped) Turbine. I say this because it looks like when the T-(Shaped) structure is rotated, that there is a higher Counter Force resisting rotation, when there is a higher Water Flow Rate.



What happens if you use air as working fluid which has negligible mass compared to water?   I think using thin light piston with air as working fluid can eliminate the Coriolis  force. 

Please have a look at this experiment.


http://overunity.com/13489/centrifugal-overunity-an-imaginary-experiment/msg359724/#msg359724




Title: Re: T-(Shaped) Turbine, Which uses Centrifugal Force
Post by: Overunityguide on January 06, 2015, 11:21:55 AM
Hi vineet,

To eliminate the Coriolis Effect from taking place, I am thinking more of building a Spiral Like Arrangement at the moment. Just like Viktor Schauberger has created in the past... (Please see my attached Spiral-(Shaped) arrangement test setup) I am also planning to do another video about it.
Title: Re: T-(Shaped) Turbine, Which uses Centrifugal Force
Post by: vineet_kiran on January 06, 2015, 03:11:58 PM
@OUG


There are two things you may have to consider in that spiral arrangement :


1)  Since centrifugal force acts radially,  the water may not come out of spiral end with full force   energy.

2)  Since mass of water comes out tangentially from spiral end,  it automatically pushes back the spiral  by 'nozzle' effect,  thereby applying
     slowing down force.  (just like gases coming out of rocket  push the rocket up)


      What do you think?
Title: Re: T-(Shaped) Turbine, Which uses Centrifugal Force
Post by: Overunityguide on January 06, 2015, 03:55:57 PM
1) When the spiral is being rotated the water is pushed out under an inclined angle. The total water volume will also be bigger, because the spiral can be made longer than a single arm of the T-(Shape)
2) I think you suppose the spiral to rotate counter clockwise? But it is supposed to rotate clockwise. :) So it could actually help rotating.

I still think the T-(Shaped) Structure equipped with two turbines should work. By making use of two Pelton Turbines. (No Francis) This because a Pelton Turbine runs under High Pressure and Low Flow Rates. So if we can keep the Flow Rates low, the Coriolis Effect will also be relatively small.

But I still plan to de some testing with the Spiral-(Shaped) Arrangement, Just for fun. Thanks
Title: Re: T-(Shaped) Turbine, Which uses Centrifugal Force
Post by: mihai.isteniuc on January 06, 2015, 06:09:06 PM
Hi OUG,

Gratz for your idea. I believe is a great an unique one. U make me log to OU site after a very long time to comment it.

Yes indeed Coriolis force was something to be expected to appear. No surprises here.

My first question is: How much does this force affect the system? I'll start experimenting with a simple motor (DC one if possible so no reactive power will be involved).

1. For a given rpm (u choose one) of the system without any water flow (just vertical pipe in water), how much power (or if u wish energy) do u need to make it spin?
2. How much energy do u need to make it spin with the same rpm but with the pipes full of water, but no water flow (fill the pipes with water and then seal them)?
3. How much energy u need to achieve same rpm but with water flow now?

Also I agree that an impulse turbine (aka Pelton) should be used to minimize the Coriolis effect. That is in direct relation with the water flow. Question: Increasing the cross section of horizontal pipes can help? (aka make the flow rate smaller).

I also agree that the "T-shape" must be modified to minimize Coriolis force as u describe it, but I don't believe your spiral is the good direction.

In my opinion the real flow shape of the water (including Coriolis) it's more like an "S", so the pipes should be also like an "S" linked in the middle of the S with the vertical pipe (well S is an approximation, didn't really mean that, but is the closest letter i could find to better describe the shape of horizontal pipes, and if we keep this " S" as convention the system should rotate of course, counterclockwise). Keep that in mind that the rpm of the entire built and the speed of the water flow inside the horizontal pipes can be calculated or u can determinate them experimental. With this 2 in your pocket u can easily determine then the 3rd resultant force => Coriolis, as value, direction and trajectory. This trajectory should be the shape that horizontal pipe should have it. Any variation on the input data, means that the trajectory of Coriolis will be different aka new design on horizontal pipes. I hope I'm not wrong with this one.

I keep my fingers cross and waiting for more info from u. I'm sorry i can't right now do testing side by side with u and compare results. I hope in the future I will ...

PS English is not my native language so please excuse me if i sound strange some time.

Good luck,

Mihai
Title: Re: T-(Shaped) Turbine, Which uses Centrifugal Force
Post by: Overunityguide on January 06, 2015, 08:16:01 PM
Hi All,

I have Uploaded my New Video about the Spiral-(Shaped) Turbine Test Setup. But mind you, I think I was a Bit Too Enthusiast while Recording. I say this because there is less friction encountered indeed. But because of the Spiral like structure, there was also a-lot less water coming out of it. (compared to the T-(Shaped) Turbine version) This can be explained by the fact, that for now, the water is acting almost only radially. Because of this, there is a-lot less Centrifugal Force acting upon the Water...

http://youtu.be/JFgYYj9Z_VA (http://youtu.be/JFgYYj9Z_VA)

I personally Think that OU User 'mihai.isteniuc' is right about finding an optimum design like an S-(Shaped) Turbine structure (I will come back on your questions, just need some time to test) So with an S Like structure the centrifugal force is still acting upon the water, but it is also canceling out a bit of the (counter) acting Coriolis Force.

But one important discovery so far is that High Pressure / Low Flow Rate works the best for the T/S-(Shaped) Like Turbine Structure! So two Pelton (impulse) Turbines are the preferred choice
Title: Re: T-(Shaped) Turbine, Which uses Centrifugal Force
Post by: vineet_kiran on January 07, 2015, 06:04:34 AM

@OUG


Can you please try your first experiment with 'T' turbine again,  this time filling the 'T'  with sponge?   Sponge being flexible material may absorb the coriolis force hence you may not feel much resistance against rotation.  You may have to fill the sponge slightly loose fit.

Of course water discharge will be reduced due to presence of sponge but I think it is still worth a try!
Title: Re: T-(Shaped) Turbine, Which uses Centrifugal Force
Post by: Overunityguide on January 07, 2015, 11:19:34 PM
1. For a given rpm (u choose one) of the system without any water flow (just vertical pipe in water), how much power (or if u wish energy) do u need to make it spin?
2. How much energy do u need to make it spin with the same rpm but with the pipes full of water, but no water flow (fill the pipes with water and then seal them)?
3. How much energy u need to achieve same rpm but with water flow now?

Also I agree that an impulse turbine (aka Pelton) should be used to minimize the Coriolis effect. That is in direct relation with the water flow. Question: Increasing the cross section of horizontal pipes can help? (aka make the flow rate smaller).

@ mihai.isteniuc

I am using the man/hand powered setup to feel how much force is being needed to rotate the device by my self.

To come back on your questions:
1. No Water and No Water Flow in the T-(Shaped) arrangement. This turns around quite easy.
2. Water in the T-(Shaped) arrangement, but sealed. So No Water Flow. This takes more power to start, but when it rotates it will take about the same energy as in the previous step.
3. Water Flowing in the T-(Shaped) arrangement. This takes more power then in the previous steps. The higher the Flow Rate, the higher the resistance to turn it around . (aka Coriolis Effect)

So Low Flow Rate and High Pressure will be the Key. (Pelton Turbines are advised to use)

Furthermore about the cross section of of the horizontal pipes I can tell that it is important to keep them big enough, so that water can flow quite easy with low resistance inside the pipe.
Title: Re: T-(Shaped) Turbine, Which uses Centrifugal Force
Post by: mihai.isteniuc on January 08, 2015, 05:29:02 PM
Hi OUG,

Thanks for your tests and answers. I believe we all expected this kind of behavior. The real problems is that the water molecules aren't happy to be put to work, so they are fighting back with us. The more they travel from the center towards the end of the horizontal pipes the more they fight. Agree with all your conclusions.

I believe we have to back engineer the device. I'm thinking we need the Pelton turbines 1st. They will decide how big the entire test machinery will be, and dictate everything: water flow, length and shape of the horizontal pipes, cross sections and rotation speed, power of the motor and generators and so on. We cant go to some workshop and ask the guys there to execute a few. They are quite complicated and need a lot of calculation and careful design. For testing we need something simple and easy to modify if needed. I'm thinking on plastic tea spoons for beginning. I'll start digging in this direction to see how we can manufacture some cheap but efficient Pelton turbines for our tests. Also buying them is not an option because they have very big prices, even the ones made out from plastic.


I believe i have find some simulation software to see if we can better understand how Coriolis work and what can we do to minimize it (the way i see it now: even if we can design a curved horizontal pipe that will minimize the impact of Coriolis with the pipe, the problem is still there. The Coriolis will then increase the pressure inside the pipes because the new coming water molecules hit the ones before them and so on. I'm not really sure. It is possible that curved or not the results with both designs to be similar). Regarding software no promises cause i only read a little, didn't even install it. Will keep u posted.

@vineet_kiran: interesting suggestion regarding the sponge. Didn't see it that way. Also i think this idea should be tested cause I can really "see" what's happen with the water molecules in this case and how much the water flow and pressure are affected by the sponge ... hmmmm


Mihai
Title: Re: T-(Shaped) Turbine, Which uses Centrifugal Force
Post by: Overunityguide on January 09, 2015, 03:53:57 PM
The real problems is that the water molecules aren't happy to be put to work, so they are fighting back with us. The more they travel from the center towards the end of the horizontal pipes the more they fight. Agree with all your conclusions.

Yes this looks to be true. Once the water molecules are turned around but not being displaced inside the tubes, they seem to be perfectly happy. But when the water molecules starts to move towards the circumference (while being rotated of course) they seem to be less satisfied... So the faster they move, the more they try to resist the rotating action... So less Flow and More Pressure (Centrifugal Force) is what we need. As discussed before (Pelton Turbines needs to be used at each end of the rotating horizontal pipes)

I Love your idea about the tea spoons b.t.w. And Yes I know the prices which are asked for even small plastic Pelton/Turgo Turbines are really ridiculous.

For myself I am thinking about a rotating structure with two (simple) custom build plastic Pelton Turbines. Which propel the structure by its self, by means of a belt like arrangement. In which the belt goes from the turbines towards a fixed and stationary center wheel.
Title: Re: T-(Shaped) Turbine, Which uses Centrifugal Force
Post by: Overunityguide on January 09, 2015, 05:38:08 PM
 For now, to make it a bit more clear. I made a drawing of the T/S-(Shaped) Turbine concept, which is being equipped with two Pelton Turbines… (this one is supposed to be a self-runner)
Title: Re: T-(Shaped) Turbine, Which uses Centrifugal Force
Post by: miloszlaw on January 10, 2015, 01:15:25 AM
And something like that?
Title: Re: T-(Shaped) Turbine, Which uses Centrifugal Force
Post by: DaS Energy on January 10, 2015, 04:15:54 AM
I like your work. It may help the finished design if you drop the Pelton runner and the generator from the end of swing arm and instead have one centre mounted up above the swing line. The centrifugal drive forces remain and much of the inertia weight is removed.

The drive resembles a pyramid shape with a hole in the top apex, so allowing water flow produced by the swing arms action.
Title: Re: T-(Shaped) Turbine, Which uses Centrifugal Force
Post by: mihai.isteniuc on January 10, 2015, 05:53:01 PM
Hi 2 all,

Pls find attached a document with the conclusions of a team regarding a pico Pelton turbine. The document covers some aspects regarding construction an conclusions after the successful build of the turbine from a more practical point of view.

Mihai
Title: Re: T-(Shaped) Turbine, Which uses Centrifugal Force
Post by: Overunityguide on January 12, 2015, 03:47:13 PM
@ Mihai, Nice Document on the Design Process of a Pelton Wheel. THX

@ miloszlaw, I think I don't understand what you are trying to accomplish by replacing the rotating tubes with your rotating cylindrical structure. (as can be seen in your Drawing) This because with a rotating cylindrical structure only, there cannot be exerted as much Centrifugal Force on the water compared to when we use a rotating T-(Shaped) Pipe Structure. And furthermore the guide way structure next to each individual Pelton Turbine is also unnecessary in my opinion. This because they are Impulse Turbines. (Please look for the inner workings of Pelton Impulse Turbines on the internet)

For the Self Propelled version, see the Rotation direction indicated by the Arrows. (Counter Clockwise in this Case) This version only works with pulleys and driving belts. So No generators attached…
Title: Re: T-(Shaped) Turbine, Which uses Centrifugal Force
Post by: Overunityguide on January 18, 2015, 02:44:42 PM
After a two week testing period during the Christmas holidays, I have tested multiple test rotors for the T/S-(Shaped) Turbine Concept. After this I have now created a wrap-up video, in which my conclusions are being discussed. I also give some extra information about the self-rotating T/S-(Shaped) Turbine concept, which can be built by making use of two simple Pelton Turbines.

Here you will find the link to my new video about my Final Conclusions:

http://youtu.be/BHsB_-h7kkg (http://youtu.be/BHsB_-h7kkg)
Title: Re: T-(Shaped) Turbine, Which uses Centrifugal Force
Post by: mihai.isteniuc on January 18, 2015, 05:37:38 PM
Hi all. I decided to give it a go to this project. Evolution will be slow 'cause lack of time. I'll keep u posted with the findings along the way.

To OUG: did u receive my pm?

Mihai
Title: Re: T-(Shaped) Turbine, Which uses Centrifugal Force
Post by: Overunityguide on January 19, 2015, 11:55:55 AM
Hi all. I decided to give it a go to this project. Evolution will be slow 'cause lack of time. I'll keep u posted with the findings along the way.

To OUG: did u receive my pm?

Mihai

Hi Mihai,

Good to hear that you want to do some testing for yourself. I just read your PM about your T-(Shaped) Turbine power calculations. It’s looking good in my opinion. The only thing I would like to know is where you found the formula for calculating the Coriolis (Counter effecting) Force…. Can you provide a source for it on the internet maybe? It's also good to hear that the Counter Effecting Coriolis effect looks to be 30 times less when compared to the Effecting Centrifugal Force in your power calculations! Maybe it's an idea to make your power calculations public on this forum? Thanks, OUG.
Title: Re: T-(Shaped) Turbine, Which uses Centrifugal Force
Post by: miloszlaw on January 19, 2015, 01:30:33 PM
By replacing the rotating tubes with rotating cylindrical structure maby you can reduce the Coriolis effect without reduce Centrifugal Force?
Title: Re: T-(Shaped) Turbine, Which uses Centrifugal Force
Post by: DaS Energy on January 19, 2015, 03:00:38 PM
Liquid filled cylinder with T provides greater inertia energy, lessening the rotation load on the Pelton's.
Title: Re: T-(Shaped) Turbine, Which uses Centrifugal Force
Post by: DaS Energy on January 19, 2015, 03:31:41 PM
 T provides 82% efficient Pelton. DaS 60%.

 Inertia also active in DaS. Turbine is of heavy construction.

 DaS :-) active below zero* C.

 T once spun may continue,
Title: Re: T-(Shaped) Turbine, Which uses Centrifugal Force
Post by: mihai.isteniuc on January 23, 2015, 06:30:04 PM
Hi Mihai,

Good to hear that you want to do some testing for yourself. I just read your PM about your T-(Shaped) Turbine power calculations. It’s looking good in my opinion. The only thing I would like to know is where you found the formula for calculating the Coriolis (Counter effecting) Force…. Can you provide a source for it on the internet maybe? It's also good to hear that the Counter Effecting Coriolis effect looks to be 30 times less when compared to the Effecting Centrifugal Force in your power calculations! Maybe it's an idea to make your power calculations public on this forum? Thanks, OUG.

Hi OUG, hi all,

Sorry for my late answer. The formula Coriolis was taken from wikipedia, more precisely: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coriolis_effect (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coriolis_effect)

Mihai

PS I have checked again the calculations and did not find anything wrong. I'll post them and ask help from other members from forum.
Title: Re: T-(Shaped) Turbine, Which uses Centrifugal Force
Post by: mihai.isteniuc on January 23, 2015, 06:43:29 PM
Now as promise the power calculations I did. No claims here about anything. Excuse my poor english. Take your time ... this is gonna be a long post to read and digest.

Keep that in mind that I am european and will use metric system for all my calculations.

STEP 1 – What do we know?
Well we know a lot. From the document previously posted ( http://overunity.com/15318/t-shaped-turbine-which-uses-centrifugal-force/msg432132/#msg432132 ) we have find out some real data:

Water pressure: 45 psi
Flow rate: 0.375 liters/second

Assuming an efficiency of 100% the calculated turbine should produce 116 watts of mechanical power (of course in real life there isn't such thing so lets assume efficiency somewhere around 85%)

Calculated mechanical power on turbine shaft is then:

P real = P calculated X 0.85
P real = 98.6 Watts of mechanical power!!!. Close to 100 … not bad

In a real test it is mentioned (page 45 of the document) that a portable TV set was used as load. Power requirements for the TV: 12V/60W. And the TV worked without any problems. So 60W of electrical power !!! can be expected without any problems. Great!

STEP 2 – Let's imagine
… now a setup for testing our machine. I choose the following physical dimensions (based somehow on my common sense and some expertise):

main pipe: 110 mm in diameter (the vertical pipe)
length of main: as short as possible to minimize friction losses between it and the water from tank.
T pipe: 40 mm in diameter (the horizontal ones)
length of T pipe: 1000 mm

STEP 3 – Basic calculations

Water pressure: 45 psi = 3.06 atmosphere (standard); ref: http://www.onlineconversion.com/pressure.htm (http://www.onlineconversion.com/pressure.htm)
Flow rate: 0.375 L/sec
Speed of water for desired flow rate = (4 x flow rate) / (pipe diameter² x  Π)
Speed of water inside 40 mm pipe for desired flow rate = 0.29842 meters/second; ref: http://www.1728.org/flowrate.htm (http://www.1728.org/flowrate.htm)
Cross section of the pipe = Π x d² / 4 where d is diameter of the pipe
Cross section of the pipe = 3.14 x 40 x 40 / 4 = 1256 mm² = 0.001256 m²

STEP 4 – Calculating centrifugal force (at the end of 1 meter of horizontal pipe)

Fcentrifugal = m x Ω² x r
where m is the mass of rotating object in kilograms;
Ω = angular speed of rotating mass in radians/second;
r = radius of the the rotating mass;

Damn we don't know Ω. Let's make a wild guess then. I'm feeling lucky (in google words) and I say: let's rotate the damn thing with 170 rpm.

170 rpm = 17.80 rad/sec; ref: http://www.convertunits.com/from/RPM/to/radian/second (http://www.convertunits.com/from/RPM/to/radian/second)

Moving mass is: volume of the water trapped inside the pipe or in other words:
m = cross section of the pipe x length of the pipe x specific density of the water
m = 0.001256 x 1 x 1000 kilograms/cubic meter = 1.256 kilograms of water

Fcentrifugal = 1.256 x 17.80 x 17.80 x 1 = 397 Newtons

STEP 5 – Calculating Coriolis force

Coriolis ca be calculated by the following formula:
Fcoriolis =-2 x m x Ω x v
Fcoriolis =-2 x 1,256 x 17.80 x 0,29842
Fcoriolis =-13.34 Newton; so Coriolis is almost 30 times lower then centrifugal. I’m tempted to ignore it.

STEP 6 – Calculating the pressure at the end of the pipe

Pressure is force per unit area. So our pressure is:
P = 397 Newtons/0.001256 m² = 316082 Newtons/m² Well that's a lot if u ask me. How much?
P =  316082 Newtons/m² = 3.12 atmosphere (again standard); ref: http://www.onlineconversion.com/pressure.htm (http://www.onlineconversion.com/pressure.htm)

CONCLUSION: If we rotate a pipe full of water with 1 meter in lengh and 40 mm in diameter with 170 rpm we get around 3 atmosphere of pressure at the end of the pipe. Hey, that's great. Remember the start condition? 45 psi or 3.06 atmospheres? Then if we attach a Pelton turbine like the one designed in the document we can produce around 100 watts of mechanical power using this method. GREAT!!! … is it or is it not???...

STEP 7 – How much power do we need to invest to achieve and maintain 170 rpm with our pipe(s)?

A. Kinetic energy (the power needed to make the system rotate from 0 rpm to 170 rpm, no water flow and no frictions). When we achieve the desired rpm if there are no losses in the system we can consider that the system will rotate from now on for ever at that rpm. The energy invested to get desired rpm can be expressed by the formula:

KE = ½  x I x Ω², where
I is momentum of inertia and Ω is angular velocity;

I can be calculated: I = ½ x m x R², where
m is total mass of the system and R is radius of the system. Will assume that total mass of the rotating system is 20 kg (this includes pipes, water trapped inside it, turbines … all rotating elements).

I = 0.5 x 20 x 1 x 1 = 10, so
KE = 0.5 x 10 x 17.80 x 17.80 = 1584 Joules; this is the required amount of power needed to be invested to make a 20 kg mass with radius of 1 meter to rotate with 170 rpm. Of course in reality this mass is distributed around the radius of the system. Not all 20 kg are at the end of 1 meter radius, therefore the energy requirements are, I believe smaller. But what is IMPORTANT: this energy is invested once at startup, at every startup. And that’s it.

B. Power to overcome LOSSES in the system (aka to maintain 170 rpm):

1. electrical;
2. friction.

1. Let's ignore them … (for now)  we will consider 100W of mechanical power on the output of the Pelton and the mechanical power on the input required to rotate the shaft. So, mechanical vs mechanical. No more transformations and complications.

2. there are a lot of frictions and losses:
a) friction of water with the pipes;
b) friction in bearings;
c) kinetic energy to accelerate from 0 to 170 rpm, the desired flow rate (0.375 liter of water in every second). Although the mass of the water inside the pipes is constant, if we have a flow, then every new molecule of water entering the system must be accelerated from 0 to the rotating speed);
d) friction of the rotating pipes with the surrounding air;
e) other(s) … u name it (them) if u can identify it (them) …better yet calculate it (them).

2a) friction of water with the pipes
Hazen Williams formula  is typically used to calculate friction losses through water conveying pipe. The result represents head loss in meters at 100 meters of pipe.

Hf (m @100m) = (608,704,451 / d4.8655) x (Q / C)1.85, where
d is diameter in mm
Q is water flow in liters/min
C is roughness coefficient (typically for PVC pipes values are between 150 and 160)
Hf = (608,704,751 / 40 4.8655) x (0,375 x 60 / 155)1.85
Hf = 608,704,751 / 62,348,051 x 0.028
Hf = 0.27 → friction of water with pipes is very low at this flow speed, almost negligible.

2b) friction in bearings with good bearings this will be very low. I'm almost sure I can estimate that no more of 5W of power loss will occur in the 2 bearings.

2c) kinetic energy for 0.375 liters of water (we already used the 2 formulas)

I = ½ x m x R²
I =  ½ x 0.375 x 1 x 1
I = 0.1875

KE = ½  x I x Ω²
KE = ½  x 0.1875 x 17.80 x 17.80
KE = 29,70 Joules

2d) friction of the rotating pipes with the surrounding air = 0

Well let's put a cover on top of our machine. Seal it. Add vacuum inside the machine (extract all the air). No more power loss due to air friction. End of story here. And it is doable.

Let's make a recap now regarding power loss … we have discovered:

1. Some low value Coriolis force will add some extra friction of water with the pipes (minor);
2. Friction of water with the pipes (minor);
3. Friction in bearings – 5 Watt;
4. Kinetic energy for 0.375 liters of water – 29.70 Watt

Total(1) = 35 Watt. I'll be generous and I'll add another 5 for friction of water inside the pipes (hope it is ok. can't imagine to be more ... after all is only 1 meter of pipe, even if the flow is turbulent inside it)
Total(2) = 40 Watt.

HUH? So we need to invest 40 Watt (mechanical) and we will obtain then 100 Watt (also mechanical)? Really?

PS. After some more consideration regarding the system the following might be true: The mechanical work is generated by centrifugal force in direct relation with the mass of water. Mass of water is 1.2 kilograms. The kinetic energy absorbed by the system (while in motion) is for accelerating the flow of water inside the pipe and that is 0.375 liters of water. In other words 1.2 liters of water generate energy, but only 0.375 liters of water absorb energy … in every second … hmmm


PS2. TY for taking the time to read all of this. I'll only ask: what is missing?


Mihai
Title: Re: T-(Shaped) Turbine, Which uses Centrifugal Force
Post by: Overunityguide on January 25, 2015, 01:42:56 PM
@ Mihai,

Thank you for Posting your Theoretical Calculations Online...
Title: Re: T-(Shaped) Turbine, Which uses Centrifugal Force
Post by: Overunityguide on January 25, 2015, 01:43:43 PM
In my New Video I have done Some Testing with a High Pressure / Low Flow Rate Setup. The results are Quite Promising…
In this Setup the Coriolis Effect almost looks like to be prevented. This Setup works the Best for Now… (Compared to the Tests I have done Previously)

The New Video Can be Found at: http://youtu.be/363K5AoSi0c (http://youtu.be/363K5AoSi0c)
 
Title: Re: T-(Shaped) Turbine, Which uses Centrifugal Force
Post by: telecom on January 26, 2015, 03:10:33 AM
Very exciting video!
Looking forward for more results.
Regards
Title: Re: T-(Shaped) Turbine, Which uses Centrifugal Force
Post by: Overunityguide on January 26, 2015, 07:17:02 PM
Because of the promising results with my test setup during my last video, I have decided to update the theoretical self-runner design.
So for now it contains the most recent improvements. (nozzles being bend +/- 60  degrees)
Title: Re: T-(Shaped) Turbine, Which uses Centrifugal Force
Post by: telecom on January 29, 2015, 04:59:54 PM
Because of the promising results with my test setup during my last video, I have decided to update the theoretical self-runner design.
So for now it contains the most recent improvements. (nozzles being bend +/- 60  degrees)

Hi
there may be one problem - mismatch of the RPMs of the turbines and the main rotor,
since most likely, the turbines will want to rotate much faster.
To resolve this, may be connect turbines to the shafts of the generators, which in turn will feed the main motor of the rotor?
Just a thought.
Regards
Title: Re: T-(Shaped) Turbine, Which uses Centrifugal Force
Post by: Overunityguide on January 30, 2015, 08:53:29 AM
Hi
there may be one problem - mismatch of the RPMs of the turbines and the main rotor,
since most likely, the turbines will want to rotate much faster.
To resolve this, may be connect turbines to the shafts of the generators, which in turn will feed the main motor of the rotor?
Just a thought.
Regards

@ telecom,

And that's where the Transmission Ratio comes in. Because of the Transmission Ratio between the Pelton Pulley and the Fixed Stator Pulley, the Pelton Turbine could rotate multiple times before the whole structure is turned around a single time. I guess that the Transmission Ratio in my drawing is about 1:10 But that's only an estimate.

Of course we do need to find the optimum Transmission Ratio. But that is something which can be done by a little Trial and Error.
Title: Re: T-(Shaped) Turbine, Which uses Centrifugal Force
Post by: 4Tesla on January 30, 2015, 10:02:56 AM
@Overunityguide

Nice work!!    8)

Nice to see something new!
Reminds me of the Richard Clem oil engine, but is different.

ETA:  I just found this thread.. might be useful for ideas..
http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/4348-water-turbine-project.html
Title: Re: T-(Shaped) Turbine, Which uses Centrifugal Force
Post by: Overunityguide on January 31, 2015, 11:48:25 AM
ETA:  I just found this thread.. might be useful for ideas..
http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/4348-water-turbine-project.html (http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/4348-water-turbine-project.html)

@4Tesla,

Thanks for sharing the link, I was aware of its existence. Especially the ‘Tornado Home-Power Generator’ Images from Viktor Schauberger are quite interesting to me. I have to admit that that setup was the first one I have tried. (with a fixed stationary outer ring) But unfortunately didn’t work for me… I think it has to do with the very high speed water jets, which are needed at the circumference of the rotating structure to propel it by itself. This because of the wide diameter needed for the rotating structure… To summarize: the wider you make the rotating structure, the higher the centrifugal force will be at the circumference. But on the other hand, the wider you make the structure the higher the velocity of the out-moving water jets needs to be, to propel itself around. This is why I thought of using Pelton Turbines at the circumference, and capture the resulting centrifugal force by making use of rotating generators or by making use of a belt like transmission, connected to stationary center pulleys at the fixed frame structure. In both ways (electrical or mechanical) we can affect the electrical power conversion parameters or affect the mechanical transmission ratio.

I personally think that in this way we can extract lots of power from a High Pressure / Low Flow Rate rotating structure.
I will also try to post an image of my fixed outer (stator like) structure which didn’t worked by me.
Title: Re: T-(Shaped) Turbine, Which uses Centrifugal Force
Post by: Overunityguide on February 01, 2015, 08:25:43 AM
As promised, Here you will find my photos of my First and Initial setup with the fixed stationary outer ring. Unfortunately this setup didn’t worked by me. I think because: The wider you make the rotating structure, the higher the centrifugal force will be at the circumference. But on the other hand, the wider you make the structure the higher the velocity of the out-moving water jets needs to be, to propel itself around. So from that moment in time, I decided to go for the Pelton Turbine (High Pressure/Low Flow Rate) route…

(but I am still playing with the thoughts that maybe if we create the fixed stationary outer ring a bit bigger and build the rotating structure with a bigger circumference, there might be a chance that it could work…) But this is something to try for another time. For now I have put my hopes on the outer Pleton Turbine Setup.
Title: Re: T-(Shaped) Turbine, Which uses Centrifugal Force
Post by: DaS Energy on February 01, 2015, 10:51:49 AM
Your flow jets are angled 180* (no motion) in place of 30* or the more preferential 90*.
Title: Re: T-(Shaped) Turbine, Which uses Centrifugal Force
Post by: Overunityguide on February 01, 2015, 11:52:36 AM
Your flow jets are angled 180* (no motion) in place of 30* or the more preferential 90*.

The Flow Jets are at about 45-60 degrees. (Please take a Careful Look at the Images) But I agree that a Higher Angle would be even better...