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Author Topic: T-(Shaped) Turbine, Which uses Centrifugal Force  (Read 29538 times)

Offline AB Hammer

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Re: T-(Shaped) Turbine, Which uses Centrifugal Force
« Reply #30 on: January 01, 2015, 04:37:15 PM »
To continue on the comment of AB Hammer, yes the system has the same operating principle as a Centrifugal Pump System. Except for the fact the a Centrifugal Pump its impeller is normally fully submerged under water. (which creates a lot of resistance) In case of the T-(Shaped) Turbine Concept, about 98% of the System is running above the water, what's also a good thing in my opinion...

I feel a need to correct you on this. Sump pumps are under water and do not require priming for they self prime due to being under water. Well pumps are above the water and require priming and they need foot valves to keep from loosing prime. Both are centrifugal in design. I have worked with pumps from a young age, using them to supply water to the home or camp house.  Sump pumps tend to be used to get water out of unwanted places like basements for instant.  You will also need a foot Valve or you will need something like an  archimedes screw to be able to restart or you will have to re-prime at start up, each time you start up.  Most centrifugal pumps are above water and that is why priming is important. 

Don't get me wrong for I feel you are on a good path. I want to see you succeed. My help is from my experience from pumps to supply water to homes remove from basements and from the US Coast Guard which are all experienced fire fighters. Also as a Blacksmith/Armorer which works for construction of hand made machines from the past to today.  Not to mention 7 to 8 years of free energy approaches. If you have any questions? You can also PM to me if you don't want it on open forum. My help is yours as long as it doesn't get into my own personal projects of course. I am well in my 50s now days.

Almost forgot to say I also have a lot of experience repairing vacuum  cleaners and was service manager for Rainbow for the state of Arkansas which is a water filtration/capture vacuum cleaner. Yes understanding a vacuum is also important.

Alan       

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Offline Overunityguide

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Re: T-(Shaped) Turbine, Which uses Centrifugal Force
« Reply #31 on: January 02, 2015, 09:19:57 AM »
I feel a need to correct you on this. Sump pumps are under water and do not require priming for they self prime due to being under water. Well pumps are above the water and require priming and they need foot valves to keep from loosing prime. Both are centrifugal in design. I have worked with pumps from a young age, using them to supply water to the home or camp house.  Sump pumps tend to be used to get water out of unwanted places like basements for instant.  You will also need a foot Valve or you will need something like an  archimedes screw to be able to restart or you will have to re-prime at start up, each time you start up.  Most centrifugal pumps are above water and that is why priming is important. 

@ AB Hammer,
 
You sound like an experienced man ;)
 
I know about Sump and Well pumps, and I know that Sump Pumps are being submerged into water from the start. I also know that there is no priming needed for the Sump Pump to start and that on the opposite there is priming needed for a Well Pump to operate well. But that is not what I meant. I meant that every impeller from every centrifugal pump rotates inside a casing full of water. (Regardless of being a Sump/Well Pump) Most of the T-(Shaped) its rotating parts are not running inside of a casing full of water, but runs in the open air instead. (With less resistance in my opinion)
 
Placing a Foot Valve on the T-(Shaped) Water Inlet is a good idea of course. So that it needs to be primed only once...
 
And thanks for the offer on helping out on this subject. I guess that replication is the key to success, so replicating the prototypes can help a lot in my opinion. (The Scientific World also works with Peer to Peer Reviews...) If everyone (as a result of replicating) comes to the same conclusions, something really nice can come out of it I think...

Offline vineet_kiran

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Re: T-(Shaped) Turbine, Which uses Centrifugal Force
« Reply #32 on: January 02, 2015, 11:06:07 AM »

I meant that every impeller from every centrifugal pump rotates inside a casing full of water. (Regardless of being a Sump/Well Pump) Most of the T-(Shaped) its rotating parts are not running inside of a casing full of water, but runs in the open air instead. (With less resistance in my opinion)



@overunityguide


I think you are right.


In a centrifugal pump,  the impeller developes centrifugal force which in turn pushes the water out to required head.  In that case when water is pushed out,  it (water) should exert equal force on impeller by reaction which follows directly from Newton's third law which in turn exerts force on prime mover sucking energy from prime mover, thereby conserving energy.

But in your 'T' shaped turbine, water molecules (mass of water) themselves attain centrifugal force in the absence of impeller.  The reaction force here will be centripetal force which is directed towards center and this force cannot act tangentially  on the 'T' to slow it down.  Hence you are eliminating the effect of reaction force.  Eliminating reaction force will definitely lead to overunity. The input energy you have to supply is to only overcome friction and any other losses which will be negligible.  Theoritically friction can be made zero. 

I had posted the following experiment based on the same principle.  Please have a look  and your thoughts :

http://overunity.com/12063/capillary-force-pump/


It is downloaded 1461 times. Don't know whether anybody has tried it.



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Re: T-(Shaped) Turbine, Which uses Centrifugal Force
« Reply #32 on: January 02, 2015, 11:06:07 AM »
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Offline Overunityguide

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Re: T-(Shaped) Turbine, Which uses Centrifugal Force
« Reply #33 on: January 03, 2015, 12:02:43 PM »

I had posted the following experiment based on the same principle.  Please have a look  and your thoughts :

http://overunity.com/12063/capillary-force-pump/

It is downloaded 1461 times. Don't know whether anybody has tried it.

Hi vineet,
 
Thanks for sharing your idea. Theoretically I think it could work. (just like you are saying in the document: 'only of theoretical interest and not of any practical use')
But for a practical application, more water needs to be moved around I guess. (compared to what can be done by capillary tubes only)
 
So I guess we need to stick with some good old fashioned Priming...
After all, when the system is primed and it is up to speed, the priming action can be stopped. Because of this, it is only an initial investment.
 
Regards, OUG.

Offline Overunityguide

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Re: T-(Shaped) Turbine, Which uses Centrifugal Force
« Reply #34 on: January 04, 2015, 10:10:29 AM »
For a good background reading on the Hydro-Power Calculation method used, I wanted to share the following link:
http://hydro-bpt.bangor.ac.uk/hydropower.php.en

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: T-(Shaped) Turbine, Which uses Centrifugal Force
« Reply #34 on: January 04, 2015, 10:10:29 AM »
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Offline Overunityguide

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Re: T-(Shaped) Turbine, Which uses Centrifugal Force
« Reply #35 on: January 04, 2015, 10:17:00 AM »
The following article, about a 'Guide to Hydropower' can also be really useful...
http://www.canyonhydro.com/guide/Guide%20to%20Hydropower.pdf

Offline Kator01

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Re: T-(Shaped) Turbine, Which uses Centrifugal Force
« Reply #36 on: January 04, 2015, 01:25:31 PM »
Hello overunityguide,

 self-accelleration can only happen if tangential forces are allowed to develop.

This concept was proposed some years ago by Alan Cresswell, see fig. 11

http://web.archive.org/web/20120825053539/http://www.unifiedtheory.org.uk/

I lost contact to Alan and I think he died.

Kator01

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: T-(Shaped) Turbine, Which uses Centrifugal Force
« Reply #36 on: January 04, 2015, 01:25:31 PM »
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Offline Overunityguide

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Re: T-(Shaped) Turbine, Which uses Centrifugal Force
« Reply #37 on: January 05, 2015, 02:58:12 PM »
After a lot of testing over the last two weeks, I think that there might be an overseen issue related to the Coriolis Effect taking place inside the T-(Shaped) Turbine. I say this because it looks like when the T-(Shaped) structure is rotated, that there is a higher Counter Force resisting rotation, when there is a higher Water Flow Rate.

I also found a couple of video's demonstrating this effect...

Coriolis Flow Meter Demonstration:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vxI9ibhVND8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NpX9oXsbOfw
 
How Coriolis force affects a centrifugal pump:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bz0rWdn09sM
 
Visualization of the Coriolis and centrifugal forces:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=49JwbrXcPjc

Offline vineet_kiran

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Re: T-(Shaped) Turbine, Which uses Centrifugal Force
« Reply #38 on: January 06, 2015, 07:54:26 AM »

After a lot of testing over the last two weeks, I think that there might be an overseen issue related to the Coriolis Effect taking place inside the T-(Shaped) Turbine. I say this because it looks like when the T-(Shaped) structure is rotated, that there is a higher Counter Force resisting rotation, when there is a higher Water Flow Rate.



What happens if you use air as working fluid which has negligible mass compared to water?   I think using thin light piston with air as working fluid can eliminate the Coriolis  force. 

Please have a look at this experiment.


http://overunity.com/13489/centrifugal-overunity-an-imaginary-experiment/msg359724/#msg359724





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Re: T-(Shaped) Turbine, Which uses Centrifugal Force
« Reply #38 on: January 06, 2015, 07:54:26 AM »
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Offline Overunityguide

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Re: T-(Shaped) Turbine, Which uses Centrifugal Force
« Reply #39 on: January 06, 2015, 11:21:55 AM »
Hi vineet,

To eliminate the Coriolis Effect from taking place, I am thinking more of building a Spiral Like Arrangement at the moment. Just like Viktor Schauberger has created in the past... (Please see my attached Spiral-(Shaped) arrangement test setup) I am also planning to do another video about it.

Offline vineet_kiran

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Re: T-(Shaped) Turbine, Which uses Centrifugal Force
« Reply #40 on: January 06, 2015, 03:11:58 PM »
@OUG


There are two things you may have to consider in that spiral arrangement :


1)  Since centrifugal force acts radially,  the water may not come out of spiral end with full force   energy.

2)  Since mass of water comes out tangentially from spiral end,  it automatically pushes back the spiral  by 'nozzle' effect,  thereby applying
     slowing down force.  (just like gases coming out of rocket  push the rocket up)


      What do you think?

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: T-(Shaped) Turbine, Which uses Centrifugal Force
« Reply #40 on: January 06, 2015, 03:11:58 PM »
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Offline Overunityguide

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Re: T-(Shaped) Turbine, Which uses Centrifugal Force
« Reply #41 on: January 06, 2015, 03:55:57 PM »
1) When the spiral is being rotated the water is pushed out under an inclined angle. The total water volume will also be bigger, because the spiral can be made longer than a single arm of the T-(Shape)
2) I think you suppose the spiral to rotate counter clockwise? But it is supposed to rotate clockwise. :) So it could actually help rotating.

I still think the T-(Shaped) Structure equipped with two turbines should work. By making use of two Pelton Turbines. (No Francis) This because a Pelton Turbine runs under High Pressure and Low Flow Rates. So if we can keep the Flow Rates low, the Coriolis Effect will also be relatively small.

But I still plan to de some testing with the Spiral-(Shaped) Arrangement, Just for fun. Thanks

Offline mihai.isteniuc

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Re: T-(Shaped) Turbine, Which uses Centrifugal Force
« Reply #42 on: January 06, 2015, 06:09:06 PM »
Hi OUG,

Gratz for your idea. I believe is a great an unique one. U make me log to OU site after a very long time to comment it.

Yes indeed Coriolis force was something to be expected to appear. No surprises here.

My first question is: How much does this force affect the system? I'll start experimenting with a simple motor (DC one if possible so no reactive power will be involved).

1. For a given rpm (u choose one) of the system without any water flow (just vertical pipe in water), how much power (or if u wish energy) do u need to make it spin?
2. How much energy do u need to make it spin with the same rpm but with the pipes full of water, but no water flow (fill the pipes with water and then seal them)?
3. How much energy u need to achieve same rpm but with water flow now?

Also I agree that an impulse turbine (aka Pelton) should be used to minimize the Coriolis effect. That is in direct relation with the water flow. Question: Increasing the cross section of horizontal pipes can help? (aka make the flow rate smaller).

I also agree that the "T-shape" must be modified to minimize Coriolis force as u describe it, but I don't believe your spiral is the good direction.

In my opinion the real flow shape of the water (including Coriolis) it's more like an "S", so the pipes should be also like an "S" linked in the middle of the S with the vertical pipe (well S is an approximation, didn't really mean that, but is the closest letter i could find to better describe the shape of horizontal pipes, and if we keep this " S" as convention the system should rotate of course, counterclockwise). Keep that in mind that the rpm of the entire built and the speed of the water flow inside the horizontal pipes can be calculated or u can determinate them experimental. With this 2 in your pocket u can easily determine then the 3rd resultant force => Coriolis, as value, direction and trajectory. This trajectory should be the shape that horizontal pipe should have it. Any variation on the input data, means that the trajectory of Coriolis will be different aka new design on horizontal pipes. I hope I'm not wrong with this one.

I keep my fingers cross and waiting for more info from u. I'm sorry i can't right now do testing side by side with u and compare results. I hope in the future I will ...

PS English is not my native language so please excuse me if i sound strange some time.

Good luck,

Mihai

Offline Overunityguide

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Re: T-(Shaped) Turbine, Which uses Centrifugal Force
« Reply #43 on: January 06, 2015, 08:16:01 PM »
Hi All,

I have Uploaded my New Video about the Spiral-(Shaped) Turbine Test Setup. But mind you, I think I was a Bit Too Enthusiast while Recording. I say this because there is less friction encountered indeed. But because of the Spiral like structure, there was also a-lot less water coming out of it. (compared to the T-(Shaped) Turbine version) This can be explained by the fact, that for now, the water is acting almost only radially. Because of this, there is a-lot less Centrifugal Force acting upon the Water...

http://youtu.be/JFgYYj9Z_VA

I personally Think that OU User 'mihai.isteniuc' is right about finding an optimum design like an S-(Shaped) Turbine structure (I will come back on your questions, just need some time to test) So with an S Like structure the centrifugal force is still acting upon the water, but it is also canceling out a bit of the (counter) acting Coriolis Force.

But one important discovery so far is that High Pressure / Low Flow Rate works the best for the T/S-(Shaped) Like Turbine Structure! So two Pelton (impulse) Turbines are the preferred choice

Offline vineet_kiran

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Re: T-(Shaped) Turbine, Which uses Centrifugal Force
« Reply #44 on: January 07, 2015, 06:04:34 AM »

@OUG


Can you please try your first experiment with 'T' turbine again,  this time filling the 'T'  with sponge?   Sponge being flexible material may absorb the coriolis force hence you may not feel much resistance against rotation.  You may have to fill the sponge slightly loose fit.

Of course water discharge will be reduced due to presence of sponge but I think it is still worth a try!

 

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