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Author Topic: Lenz free generator + a different pulse motor!  (Read 36848 times)

Offline kEhYo77

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Re: Lenz free generator + a different pulse motor!
« Reply #45 on: December 26, 2014, 09:48:49 AM »
and I agree with Guyla's analysis.
You are wrong that all the flux takes the shortest route (or the path of least reluctance).
The magnetic flux takes all parallel routes inversely proportionally to their reluctances.


From Wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetic_circuit#Hopkinson.27s_law:_the_magnetic_analogy_to_Ohm.27s_law


Magnetic flux always forms a closed loop, as described by, but the path of the loop depends on the reluctance of the surrounding materials. It is concentrated around the path of least reluctance.


Limitations of the analogy: When using the analogy between magnetic circuits and electric circuits, the limitations of this analogy must be kept in mind. Electric and magnetic circuits are only superficially similar because of the similarity between Hopkinson's law and Ohm's law. Magnetic circuits have significant differences, which must be taken into account in their construction.

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Offline NoBull

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Re: Lenz free generator + a different pulse motor!
« Reply #46 on: December 26, 2014, 12:52:59 PM »
Magnetic flux always forms a closed loop, as described by, but the path of the loop depends on the reluctance of the surrounding materials. It is concentrated around the path of least reluctance.
Yes, it is concentrated.  Concentration does not mean that all flux is confined to the path of least reluctance - just most of it.

Electric and magnetic circuits are only superficially similar because of the similarity between Hopkinson's law and Ohm's law. Magnetic circuits have significant differences, which must be taken into account in their construction.
Electric current also flows in closed loops.
Yes, this analogy has limits but the significant differences start appearing only when the magnetic flux starts varying in time.

Offline kEhYo77

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Re: Lenz free generator + a different pulse motor!
« Reply #47 on: December 26, 2014, 04:38:17 PM »
Yes, it is concentrated.  Concentration does not mean that all flux is confined to the path of least reluctance - just most of it.


So now You admit, that most of the flux will go through the first section that has the least reluctance. It will be concentrated mainly there if the core can fit the flux without saturation.

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Re: Lenz free generator + a different pulse motor!
« Reply #47 on: December 26, 2014, 04:38:17 PM »
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Offline ayeaye

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Re: Lenz free generator + a different pulse motor!
« Reply #48 on: December 26, 2014, 06:29:14 PM »
It is not certain that the flux always goes to the path of least resistance. For example, the flux may go there where it is the most needed. Flux is just a name for extremely complex electromagnetic processes, happening inside or around the core. To just name all that somehow.

Offline BorisKrabow

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Re: Lenz free generator + a different pulse motor!
« Reply #49 on: December 26, 2014, 07:05:36 PM »

Current flow through a wire can be seen like water flowing through a pipe,and most electrical circuits can be replicated useing water,pipes and valves. Below is a video that i would concider to be the very same as an inductive kickback circuit.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sWSE4GeWszg
 
      hello NoBull !    This video contains a large error : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sWSE4GeWszg      ) ) )
        Here is the correct video  : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vm2USIYc53E   
        change in the motion of the magnet changes the direction of the current           
         If you receive information from textbooks contain errors - you can not get free energy  .
         

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Re: Lenz free generator + a different pulse motor!
« Reply #49 on: December 26, 2014, 07:05:36 PM »
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Offline BorisKrabow

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Re: Lenz free generator + a different pulse motor!
« Reply #50 on: December 26, 2014, 08:00:51 PM »
Hello Broli ,  I was more interested picture(  gen4 ). The coil windings interact with a magnet, and Lenz remains in the core ! seems to have been a generator Gramm  and project Orbo .

Offline Kator01

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Re: Lenz free generator + a different pulse motor!
« Reply #51 on: December 26, 2014, 10:58:51 PM »
Boris,

by the way, position C in your reverse Lenz - pic is wrong concerning field-polarity
When approaching ( A) a North-field is generated in the coil which is compensated by the pm
When leaving the middle position B , field in the coil will change to South thus amplifying
the S-field of the pm-magnet-> more drag is acting on the rotor.

Kator01

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Re: Lenz free generator + a different pulse motor!
« Reply #51 on: December 26, 2014, 10:58:51 PM »
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Offline NoBull

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Re: Lenz free generator + a different pulse motor!
« Reply #52 on: December 27, 2014, 03:12:00 AM »
So now You admit, that most of the flux will go through the first section that has the least reluctance. It will be concentrated mainly there if the core can fit the flux without saturation.
Yes, "most" but not all flux.
Also the word "now" wrongly imputes that I ever claimed otherwise.

Offline NoBull

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Re: Lenz free generator + a different pulse motor!
« Reply #53 on: December 27, 2014, 03:17:32 AM »
Here is the correct video  : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vm2USIYc53E   
change in the motion of the magnet changes the direction of the current
That video shows current stopping after the magnet stops moving because of resistance of the ring.
If there is no resistance then the current does not stop even after the magnet stops moving.

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Re: Lenz free generator + a different pulse motor!
« Reply #53 on: December 27, 2014, 03:17:32 AM »
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Offline kEhYo77

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Re: Lenz free generator + a different pulse motor!
« Reply #54 on: December 27, 2014, 08:04:45 AM »
Yes, "most" but not all flux.
Also the word "now" wrongly imputes that I ever claimed otherwise.


You agreed with Gyula's analysis: "You can consider the two flux directions A and B as two low value resistors in parallel i.e. good flux conductors and an input current (the flux from the rotor magnet) flows through both of them when you connect a battery across them i.e. the flux entering from the magnet is shared more or less equally by the two pathes: Phi[/font]total=Phi[/font]A + Phi[/font]B where Phi[/font]total is the flux from any one entering magnet. This means that path B shunts path A (and vice versa of course) and roughly half of the input flux of a rotor magnet will participate in induction from the output coil point of view."

Which implies roughly equal distribution of the flux between two core parts that is not true.
And you can not directly compare magnetic reluctance to electrical resistance as the reluctance of the same region can change the moment flux starts flowing!
So as at the beginning reluctances of both paths might be roughly the same, but as soon as the magnetic loop is being established the first path becomes more and more 'conductive' for the flux, that is why it is concentrated there in the end.


UPDATE: Here is tinman's video confirming that: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FFwIF4B7BP4
« Last Edit: December 27, 2014, 01:30:32 PM by kEhYo77 »

Offline NoBull

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Re: Lenz free generator + a different pulse motor!
« Reply #55 on: December 27, 2014, 01:50:45 PM »
Which implies roughly equal distribution of the flux between two core parts that is not true.
Why?  Guyla's analysis implied approximately equal reluctances of paths A and B so the flux sharing between them must also be roughly equal.

And you can not directly compare magnetic reluctance to electrical resistance as the reluctance of the same region can change the moment flux starts flowing!
The reluctance becomes variable only when nearing non-linear portion of the BH curve (e.g. saturation) in the magnetic path but Life is Illusion's invention did not stipulate that.
BTW: It is possible to use a PTC thermistor to electrically simulate the non-linear behavior of the BH curve.

...as soon as the magnetic loop is being established the first path becomes more and more 'conductive' for the flux...
Why?
Because of non-linear relationship of reluctance to flux density ...or because of opposing MMF ?
If it is the latter then I'd like to notice that opposing MMF does not constitute reluctance, just like opposing electrical voltage is not a resistance.

BTW:  Magnetic "Conductance' is called Permeance.

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Re: Lenz free generator + a different pulse motor!
« Reply #55 on: December 27, 2014, 01:50:45 PM »
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Offline kEhYo77

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Re: Lenz free generator + a different pulse motor!
« Reply #56 on: December 27, 2014, 02:02:00 PM »
@NoBull

Have You seen TinMan's video I linked?
What are your thoughts on that real life experiment data?

Offline BorisKrabow

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Re: Lenz free generator + a different pulse motor!
« Reply #57 on: December 27, 2014, 06:35:36 PM »
Boris,

by the way, position C in your reverse Lenz - pic is wrong concerning field-polarity
When approaching ( A) a North-field is generated in the coil which is compensated by the pm
When leaving the middle position B , field in the coil will change to South thus amplifying
the S-field of the pm-magnet-> more drag is acting on the rotor.

Kator01
    Hi Kator01  I'll try to explain without knowing English ))) . in position B Lenz law magnetic field in the coil max . in position B reverse Lenz magnetic field in the coil minimum (different poles of magnets N + S = min ). Position C Lenz law magnetic field is reduced ,appears inductive current that antagonizes opposite magnetic field . Position C reverse Lenz  magnetic field  increases and induction current has the opposite direction than  Lenz law  ,  that is why magnetic field of the coil promotes acceleration N + N .
    a similar principle in generator Kromrey    the greater the load the faster it rotates         youtube.com/watch?v=6OHxzT61nyU

Offline gyulasun

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Re: Lenz free generator + a different pulse motor!
« Reply #58 on: December 27, 2014, 06:47:03 PM »
....
Which implies roughly equal distribution of the flux between two core parts that is not true.
And you can not directly compare magnetic reluctance to electrical resistance as the reluctance of the same region can change the moment flux starts flowing!
So as at the beginning reluctances of both paths might be roughly the same, but as soon as the magnetic loop is being established the first path becomes more and more 'conductive' for the flux, that is why it is concentrated there in the end.

....

Hi kEhYo77,

I agree with you that a rigorous and precise comparison between paralleled electrical resistors and paralelled magnetic cores can surely reveal the nonlinearity issue of the cores, so in the paralleled cores the magnetic flux can divide unequally BUT I maintain that the difference is but a few percent (say less than 10%) provided the input flux entering the two paralleled cores does not bias the cores towards the saturation limits so the magnetic operation point on the BH curve can remain on the more or less linear part of the curve.

I also agree with you that as you wrote  "...as soon as the magnetic loop is being established the first path becomes more and more 'conductive' for the flux, that is why it is concentrated there in the end."  PROVIDED there is NO any air gap between the center core and the C core on the right hand side. I think the air gap is the explanation for any significant difference in the flux quantities of the yellow and the blue magnetic path I indicated in the picture taken from tinmans video, see the attachment.

IF the blue magnetic path would be constructed from a closed ring core and the two prongs that bring the flux of the rotor magnets into the setup would be attached to the ring core say at 6 o'clock and at 12 o'clock positions while the output coils would be wound in the 8 to 10 o'clock and in the 2 to 4 o'clock areas of the ring core, then there would be no any significant difference in induction just because BOTH output coils share the same closed magnetic path.
The input prongs would be perpendicular to the plane of the ring core, both would be attached to the side of the ring core with identical and at least as small air gap as there is now in tinman's C core attachment, the latter are fastened by probably with glue and two rubber bands. I assume that the air gap in tinman setup between the two C cores I indicated in red in the picture can be any value between say 0.06 to 0.1 mm.  This gap can already cause a magnetic reluctance value high enough in the secondary path of the setup so that the input flux prefers to choose mainly the yellow path.

Agree?  Remember that in the drawing made by Sam earlier in this thread, there were no any air gap indicated or referred to between the center and the C core.

Gyula

Offline broli

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Re: Lenz free generator + a different pulse motor!
« Reply #59 on: December 27, 2014, 08:44:20 PM »
Actually both of you are partially right, the flux is NOT equally distributed and it is NOT concentrated on the closest return path either. The answer is a mix of both. I already conducted quite a few of experiments and ran many simulations to convince myself of this. I attached some simple FEMM simulations showing this.
Perm. of core is linear at 1000 (so no saturation is possible) I tried with non linear steel as well and gave pretty much the same result
N52 magnet
And as gyulasun points out, indeed even the tiniest air gap will cause almost all of the flux to go through one leg.

To me this was common knowledge. What is not so common knowledge is the effect of the air gap between rotor and stator and resulting back torque. This is where my simulations broke down.

 

OneLink