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Author Topic: Lenz free generator + a different pulse motor!  (Read 36933 times)

Offline NoBull

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Re: Lenz free generator + a different pulse motor!
« Reply #30 on: December 25, 2014, 04:07:43 PM »
@Gyula
I disagree with you on that, that the flux from the magnet will go through both legs of the core. If the permeability of the center core is high enough the flux will take the shortest route leaving the back 'CEMF keeper' part of the core unaffected, ready to receive the flux from the generator coil.
and I agree with Guyla's analysis.
You are wrong that all the flux takes the shortest route (or the path of least reluctance).
The magnetic flux takes all parallel routes inversely proportionally to their reluctances.

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Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Lenz free generator + a different pulse motor!
« Reply #31 on: December 25, 2014, 05:15:43 PM »
and I agree with Guyla's analysis.
You are wrong that all the flux takes the shortest route (or the path of least reluctance).
The magnetic flux takes all parallel routes inversely proportionally to their reluctances.
Finally! I've been waiting for someone to point this out. Thank you NoBull for your knowledge and your willingness to share it. (You may find that it is a thankless task, here, though.)

Offline kEhYo77

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Re: Lenz free generator + a different pulse motor!
« Reply #32 on: December 25, 2014, 05:58:27 PM »
and I agree with Guyla's analysis.
You are wrong that all the flux takes the shortest route (or the path of least reluctance).
The magnetic flux takes all parallel routes inversely proportionally to their reluctance.


How do you explain the behavior of flux switching in Flynn device then? Like in here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r4PWiyN1G7I
Clearly there one can make flux to go through one side or the other and the opposite side is unaffected there.
The reluctance ot the path from magnet to coils core is lower than from magnet to the back part of the core.
The flux will take the path of lower reluctance in the case of CEMF too. As the front part of the core is almost saturated,
The back 'keeper' part of the core exhibits lower reluctance than the saturated front so the CEMF flux takes that route.

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Re: Lenz free generator + a different pulse motor!
« Reply #32 on: December 25, 2014, 05:58:27 PM »
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Offline life is illusion

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Re: Lenz free generator + a different pulse motor!
« Reply #33 on: December 25, 2014, 06:38:54 PM »

Gyula

Hi Gyula :)
Thanks again for taking your time and explaining all these for me, that is very kind of you :) I agree with almost everything you mentioned but I think there has to be a way to go around Lenz's law! I think we should just think and push as hard as we can and I'm sure we will break through this wall. I think if we all give it thought and work on it, we can do it :) That's why I'm gonna fire one more of my crazy designs hoping that this one might give us a bit more energy compared to the previous ones ;)
Would you please be kind and let me know what you think about this one? And forgive me if I keep repeating the same mistakes, it must be because of my lake of knowledge in the filed of magnetism and electricity :)
In this design, on the right side of the picture I tried to show that the core must be rotated 90 degrees towards us so that the shunt would be positioned at 90 degrees compared to the plate that magnets are rotating at.

@ kEhYo77 :) Thank you my friend for sharing this design. And the video you shared was truly AMAZING. Thanks a lot for making this clear for us :) Would you please let me know how could I find more information about this design? under what name it goes and who did it please? :) And I also think that magnetic current takes the shortest path until the path is fully saturated and then the rest of the flux will take the second path :) Thank you everybody for sharing your thoughts in here, this is amazing and I really appreciate it :)


Offline gyulasun

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Re: Lenz free generator + a different pulse motor!
« Reply #34 on: December 25, 2014, 06:46:10 PM »
Hi kEhYo77,

In the second paragraph of my Reply #26,  I wrote that (for the analysis)  "I assume the two cross sections of core path A and core path B are equal as are the permeabilities, and I know that path B may be a little longer than path A."

Also, in my Reply #28,  I mentioned magnetic reluctance and that the reluctance of path B can be controlled by introducing an air gap.

I agree with you in that by carefully choosing the core materials for path A (center core) and for path B (the C core on the right hand side) the incoming flux can be kept under control as to how much part of it should go to which direction.

I have just noticed your parallel path example video and I think the setup as Sam (life is illusion) drew it has a huge difference from a parallel path setup: Sam did not leave any air gap between the center and C core on the right, and this is crucial from an entering flux point of view. 

Gyula

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Re: Lenz free generator + a different pulse motor!
« Reply #34 on: December 25, 2014, 06:46:10 PM »
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Offline kEhYo77

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Re: Lenz free generator + a different pulse motor!
« Reply #35 on: December 25, 2014, 07:01:45 PM »
@life is illusion
There is only this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ySId1F9YKvM as far as I know and I have not seen a replication yet.


@gyula
The parallel path just illustrates the behavior of flux switching nicely and an air gap is not required there. Without the gap it will
work just the same. Flux wants to take the most compact loop an once it is locked in there sitting pretty there is no easy way
to change that (like adding route for the flux will not change the distribution pattern of the flux lines to expand to available new space).


BTW the solution presented in this thread works on the basis of Thane's BiTT and he does not have any air gaps to make it work.
It is just a mechanical equivalent.


kEhYo

Offline broli

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Re: Lenz free generator + a different pulse motor!
« Reply #36 on: December 25, 2014, 07:03:11 PM »
This looks very simmilar to an ongoing project of mine albeit the flux path is slightly rearranged. I planned to use off the shelf transformers rather than expensive custom build ones. Below renderings shows the engineering model of the stator, rotors (which should go on both sides) are not shown here, and an earlier illustration of the overall concept.
It's good to see others thinking in this area.

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Re: Lenz free generator + a different pulse motor!
« Reply #36 on: December 25, 2014, 07:03:11 PM »
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Offline kEhYo77

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Re: Lenz free generator + a different pulse motor!
« Reply #37 on: December 25, 2014, 07:07:39 PM »
Hi Broli as a matter of fact I am building one too! :)
I think that in your design the flux going through all the 3 legs of the core on rotation will inhibit performance.
But I guess we will see about that.
In mine, the attraction forces from magnet to the cores are distributed on 3 phases. So there are 3 points
of attraction at a time in the form of a triangle. 9/12 ratio gives nice reduction of cogging as well!


kEhYo

Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Lenz free generator + a different pulse motor!
« Reply #38 on: December 25, 2014, 07:12:35 PM »
PLEASE DO NOT POST IMAGES THAT ARE WIDER THAN 1024 PIXELS !!

It screws up the page formatting, as you can see. You can use any number of different image processing programs to resize your images to a reasonable size, or you can crop out significant sections that need to be shown at higher resolution, etc. At one time there was an official notice about image sizes but I haven't seen it lately. Nevertheless, if you keep the images below 1024 pixels wide it will be easier on everybody viewing the page.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Lenz free generator + a different pulse motor!
« Reply #38 on: December 25, 2014, 07:12:35 PM »
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Offline gyulasun

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Re: Lenz free generator + a different pulse motor!
« Reply #39 on: December 25, 2014, 09:08:15 PM »
Hi kEhYo77,

There seems to some misunderstanding between you and me in that what we originally meant...  ::)

you wrote: "The parallel path just illustrates the behavior of flux switching nicely and an air gap is not required there. Without the gap it will work just the same. Flux wants to take the most compact loop an once it is locked in there sitting pretty there is no easy way to change that (like adding route for the flux will not change the distribution pattern of the flux lines to expand to available new space)."

I agree with all what you wrote above. What is more, I agree that Thane's BiTT setup has no air gap either, it does not need an air gap.
BUT Thane solved this as he wrote in his patent application, CA2594905: "The Bi- Transformer design also has one primary coil but it differs from conventional transformers in that it has two secondary coils. The two secondary coils are set on a Toroid shaped core with a reluctance which is maintained at a lower value than the primary core leg throughout the transformer's entire operating range. This can easily be accomplished by physically increasing the Toroid area or using transformer core material with a higher relative permeability." 

And Sam, (life is illusion) did not refer to any air gap or permeability condition in his setup for his center core and for his C core on the right hand side, so I had to define these conditions (to make real operation more understandable for his setup), and this is why I referred to an air gap as a possible means for influencing reluctance, when I answered to your reference to the parallel path setup shown in the video link. In Sam's setup in this thread there is an air gap into which the rotor magnets enter and the coming and leaving sequences of the magnets would represent Sam's primary "input coil", while Thane's setup has no air gap anywhere and his primary core is also a closed magnetic circuit with a given reluctance path versus his secondary path.


Does this all mean that in Sam's setup,  if the reluctances in the center core and in the C core on the right hand side are equal with each other,  then the incoming flux from the rotor magnets chooses both the center and the C cores i.e. input flux is divided into two (more or less equal) parts?  I think it does.

Now hopefully we can already be in the same boat from now on...   :) 8) :)


Gyula

Offline gyulasun

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Re: Lenz free generator + a different pulse motor!
« Reply #40 on: December 25, 2014, 10:11:56 PM »
....
Would you please be kind and let me know what you think about this one? And forgive me if I keep repeating the same mistakes, it must be because of my lake of knowledge in the filed of magnetism and electricity :)
In this design, on the right side of the picture I tried to show that the core must be rotated 90 degrees towards us so that the shunt would be positioned at 90 degrees compared to the plate that magnets are rotating at.
....

Hi Sam,

Well, it is XMAS time, right.   :D ;D

I think that the setup you show in your drawing Lenzfree.jpg might be a bit better Lenz-wise than the generator setup shown in your shorted video ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s2kLZ5JqODY )

From the input flux excitation point of view, there is no closed magnetic path, while there is a closed path for the counter flux created by the load in the generator coil. This may mean  that induction efficiency is less (I would say about 50% less) than in your above video setup where both poles of the rotor magnets participate in induction.

BUT the 50% less induction efficiency (my gut feeling estimation) with respect to the gen setup of the video is not neccessarily a drawback of course. Especially, when you consider that the counter flux (due to Lenz law) of the generator coil is able to create a closed magnetic path of low reluctance via the C core on the right hand side,  so chances are better that the counter flux should not readily leave the closed C-I core shape to work against the moving rotor magnets. This assumes the core never gets into saturation either from the rotor magnets flux or from the counter flux created by the load current. 
However, there is a chance also for the counter flux to prevent some rotor magnet flux entry to the core as per its own flux value that depends mainly on the value of load and the usual losses.  So I cannot say for certain this is a 'heureka' moment....

Whether my gut feeling estimation is correct or not, a practical cogging-free setup is needed to build to explore how Lenz law affects your setup.  Of course, you can play with different permeability cores or differing cross section cores,  to make a trade -off between parameters, all this need testing.

Gyula

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Re: Lenz free generator + a different pulse motor!
« Reply #40 on: December 25, 2014, 10:11:56 PM »
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Offline broli

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Re: Lenz free generator + a different pulse motor!
« Reply #41 on: December 25, 2014, 11:01:32 PM »
Hi Broli as a matter of fact I am building one too! :)
I think that in your design the flux going through all the 3 legs of the core on rotation will inhibit performance.
But I guess we will see about that.
In mine, the attraction forces from magnet to the cores are distributed on 3 phases. So there are 3 points
of attraction at a time in the form of a triangle. 9/12 ratio gives nice reduction of cogging as well!

kEhYo

It's true that flux will be distributed over the three legs but it was important to get as much surface area covered under the magnet as possible. In ideal cases I would have liked to have one continuous ring to leave no gaps, see attached stator example. This would reduce cogging and any back torque effect (See Lafonte's minimal air gap demonstrations). But this turned out to be not very economical financial wise so I turned to cheaper alternatives.

Offline kEhYo77

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Re: Lenz free generator + a different pulse motor!
« Reply #42 on: December 26, 2014, 12:06:03 AM »
This ring type of stator would introduce low reluctance path from magnet to magnet and I doubt that any significant flux would go through the coil's core part to the opposite side. Basicaly it would short out the flux.

Offline broli

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Re: Lenz free generator + a different pulse motor!
« Reply #43 on: December 26, 2014, 12:14:37 AM »
This ring type of stator would introduce low reluctance path from magnet to magnet and I doubt that any significant flux would go through the coil's core part to the opposite side. Basicaly it would short out the flux.

Correct... if you do not limit the amount of magnets on your rotor. At least that's what the simulation shows. However when you limit the amount of magnets to 2 (180°) or 4 (90°) the flux will mostly choose the shorter bridge rather than traveling 1 half or 1 quarter around the ring. That's why in the designs I focus more on the amount of bridge pieces than the amount of magnets. It's a small sacrifice to get zero cogging for free and potentially zero back torque.

Offline NoBull

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Re: Lenz free generator + a different pulse motor!
« Reply #44 on: December 26, 2014, 07:57:14 AM »
How do you explain the behavior of flux switching in Flynn device then? Like in here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r4PWiyN1G7I
That's different than passive flux splitting between two paths, that was being discussed, because the system shown in this video  has 2 MMF sources (magnet & coil) which add or subtract from each other.

That would be like comparing two parallel resistors to two parallel batteries, in a purely electronic system.  See Hopkinson's law here:

Clearly there one can make flux to go through one side or the other and the opposite side is unaffected there.
With bucking MMF sources - yes
With parallel reluctances - no

In the latter case the flux distribution is inversely proportional to these reluctances, which might only seem like a total flux switch if one reluctance is much greater than the other (a 0.5mm air gap can increase a reluctance 100x).

Saturation decreases the differential permeability only.  It does not decrease static permeability (increase reluctance) to constant flux sources.
In other words: modulation of differential permeability by saturation makes a magnetic "AC switch" not a "DC switch'.

 

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