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Author Topic: Lenz free generator + a different pulse motor!  (Read 38978 times)

Offline life is illusion

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Re: Lenz free generator + a different pulse motor!
« Reply #15 on: December 22, 2014, 06:44:29 PM »
Hello  gyulasun :)

I edited the pic, I hope its better now. And thank you very much for explaining the details to me. I have been scratching my head about this for a long time and now I finally understand it :D Thanks a lot! But do you see any problems in the generator side? If yes, could you please be kind and tell me about those as well? :) I just wanna learn and I appreciate any guidance and help very much :)

Best Regards
Sam

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy


Offline dieter

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Re: Lenz free generator + a different pulse motor!
« Reply #16 on: December 22, 2014, 07:29:16 PM »
So let me get this straight, you guys say the current "flows" forward while the voltage was inverted?


Wow. Then those guys who use diodes to protect circuits from being destroyed by BEMF kickbacks must be fools. I mean, what is voltage without current? Or does the current also "flow" against the voltage in semiconductors? Does the current have anything to do with the voltage at all?


It must be the same when I go to the left and my shadow turns right. Silly is he who thinks reversing the electrical polarity will also reverse the electromagnetical polarity :D


To be honest, this contradicts everything I have read, learned and experienced. I am getting to a point where I see wikipedia as a giantic disinformation tool. Sorry guys.

Offline BorisKrabow

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Re: Lenz free generator + a different pulse motor!
« Reply #17 on: December 22, 2014, 07:44:26 PM »
 Revese Lenz  :)  ...   If the load is connected to the coil, the coil is approached to the magnet occurs
     braking according to Lenz's rule. And if the coil is filled with the magnetic field of the opposite
     sign, when approaching a magnet following the rule of Lenz will accelerate! and acceleration
     will be greater, the more energy will be removed from the coil ! This occurs because
     interaction with different magnetic poles in the field coil decreases. this leads
     change the direction of the current in the coil to the opposite compared to the classical case,
     which leads to an acceleration of the generator rotor. This principle is : Kromrey ,
      Ecklin.....

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Re: Lenz free generator + a different pulse motor!
« Reply #17 on: December 22, 2014, 07:44:26 PM »
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Offline gyulasun

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Re: Lenz free generator + a different pulse motor!
« Reply #18 on: December 22, 2014, 08:07:41 PM »
Hello Dieter,

Please try to understand what I wrote. From the moment of the current switch-off the coil becomes a generator and the polarity of instanteneous peak (or spike) voltage will be just the opposite polarity to the input voltage which caused the input current. And this reverse polarity peak voltage can only drive a current in the same direction via the load which closes the coil circuit.
What you mention on the protecting diodes, it is okay because if you check the direction of a protecting diode in parallel with a relay coil for instance, the anode of the diode is connected to the negative point of the coil when the other end of the coil receives the input positive polarity of a battery, ok? The diode is reverse biased for the input battery voltage but the spike created right after the current switch-off will forward-bias the diode which is in parallel with the coil, right?

Study the schematic I modified for Sam and understand first the polarity of the input and the induced voltages (induced by the field collapse) across the coil and then think of the coil as the remaining generator in a closed circuit after the input current switched off.  The two current directions will be the same.   

Gyula

Offline life is illusion

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Re: Lenz free generator + a different pulse motor!
« Reply #19 on: December 22, 2014, 09:06:12 PM »
Ooooouki douki :D

I trimmed the video and took out the pulse motor part :D So now lets see what can we take out of the generator side ;)

I'm so glad I learned about my mistake. Thanks a lot Tinman and Gyula, I really appreciate it :) <3

Best Regards
Sam

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Re: Lenz free generator + a different pulse motor!
« Reply #19 on: December 22, 2014, 09:06:12 PM »
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Offline gyulasun

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Re: Lenz free generator + a different pulse motor!
« Reply #20 on: December 22, 2014, 09:53:03 PM »
Hello  gyulasun :)

I edited the pic, I hope its better now. And thank you very much for explaining the details to me. I have been scratching my head about this for a long time and now I finally understand it :D Thanks a lot! But do you see any problems in the generator side? If yes, could you please be kind and tell me about those as well? :) I just wanna learn and I appreciate any guidance and help very much :)

Best Regards
Sam

Hi Sam,

Okay on the picture size now...  :D

Do you mean this video on your generator question? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s2kLZ5JqODY 

Or you mean you are going to edit a video?

Offline life is illusion

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Re: Lenz free generator + a different pulse motor!
« Reply #21 on: December 22, 2014, 10:30:18 PM »
Hi :)

Yes the same video, I just removed the second part and now it only contains the generator part :)

Best Regards
Sam

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Lenz free generator + a different pulse motor!
« Reply #21 on: December 22, 2014, 10:30:18 PM »
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Offline NoBull

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Re: Lenz free generator + a different pulse motor!
« Reply #22 on: December 23, 2014, 09:30:48 AM »
Revese Lenz  :)  ...   If the load is connected to the coil, the coil is approached to the magnet then braking occurs according to Lenz's rule.
The Lenz's law does not state that braking will occur in such situation.  This law states only the direction of the induced voltage & current.  It does not even state their magnitude which makes it a qualitative law ( bummer :( )

The braking (drag) is caused by the electrical resistance of the coil (and load).
If the coil conducts with zero resistance, then it will repel an approaching magnet as well as a departing magnet.
The work done during the approach & departure will be the same with an ideal shorted coil.

And if the coil is filled with the magnetic field of the opposite sign, when approaching a magnet following the rule of Lenz will accelerate!
Yes, the coil will attempt to keep itself "filled" with constant magnitude of this magnetic flux (of opposite sign to the magnet's pole) and an approaching magnet will be attracted to such coil (accelerated).
...but this magnet will also be attracted back to this coil during its departure with the same force over distance, thus the work performed during the approach & departure will still be the same with an ideal shorted coil.

See this video:
http://youtu.be/CvShY8YAis4

Offline tinman

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Re: Lenz free generator + a different pulse motor!
« Reply #23 on: December 23, 2014, 02:04:22 PM »
Thanks everyone for commenting :)
And Tinman, I am very glad that I can finally talk to you, I have been watching your vids and learning a lot from you ^_^

Back to the topic:
I'm uploading a drawing for you and in the drawing we can see a normal DC electricity running through a solenoid and producing N pole at the entrance of positive pole! Then after disconnecting the current, the BEMF is being used to run a load. By doing so, the direction of current is changed, the voltage and current both are going the opposite direction and thus I think they are going to be generating an opposite magnetic pole just simply because positive is not in the same place it was in, thus the N pole can't stay in its place either :)

I also would like to say that the existence of magnetic field in an electromagnet is absolutely dependent on the flow of current. So in an air core solenoid when we disconnect the current flow, the electromagnetic field around the solenoid will collapse and disappear immediately regardless of we collect the BEMF or not. But if we DO collect the BEMF, just like I explained earlier, the current changes direction and I assume it will change the poles of electromagnet. The current of BEMF is much weaker that the main input, so the changed magnetic poles might not be as strong as the main poles but I think they still do exist and can cause a small problem in system :)
Thanks for the complement LII,it is nice to know that some get some use out of my video's. But in saying that,there are those here that know a far greater deal than i do,as im what you would call!young! at this stuff,and still have much to learn.

But some truth's that i know that may help you out some more.
1-and probably the biggest one that throws a spanner in the works is-no current will be produced without the lenz force present. The more you reduce the lenz force,the less current will be produced by the generating coil. Always remember that to date,every action has an equal and opposite reaction--the generators magnetic field will always want to push against the rotors permanent magnetic field as much as the permanent magnetic field wants to push against the generators magnetic field-->equal and apposing fields.

Current flow through a wire can be seen like water flowing through a pipe,and most electrical circuits can be replicated useing water,pipes and valves. Below is a video that i would concider to be the very same as an inductive kickback circuit.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sWSE4GeWszg

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Re: Lenz free generator + a different pulse motor!
« Reply #23 on: December 23, 2014, 02:04:22 PM »
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Offline dieter

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Re: Lenz free generator + a different pulse motor!
« Reply #24 on: December 23, 2014, 07:30:09 PM »
Tinman, I hope you don't mind, but you said several things that are not only incorrect, but unneccessarily discouraging.
Quote
the generators magnetic field will always want to push against the rotors permanent magnetic field as much as the permanent magnetic field wants to push against the generators magnetic field
The Generators field (or more precisely the pickup coils field) has no idea where the PM is. It cannot think or want something. All it does is, it builds up a B-Field by its own, due to current flow. It is only because of the common coil design practice that the coils B field is focused so "effectively" on the PM. It is possible to design coils with high pickup efficiency and low electromagnet features, eg. by diffusion and also by closed loop cores.
These coils may require more space, but that should be ok.
You sure may not know how field diffusion is achieved and therefor you may disagree.
The approach is simple: make a coil that is a miserable electromagnet, but picks up induction rather well.
First you have to drop the usual openloop core. Then try a pancake monofilar that is shaped as a hemisphere.
Think about why are the poles of a pancake not radiant? (like south in the center, north at the rim) Because the domains tend to parallelize... they don't want to have a higher density at one pole than at the other, at least to some degree. On a hemispherical coil the field is radiant (in the sense of a sphere) like fur and diffuse. Furthermore, a stack of hemispheres can be used, with some space between them.


Well I don't think you Tinman are now convinced, but I hope some others will find it useful.


Peace




Offline Magluvin

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Re: Lenz free generator + a different pulse motor!
« Reply #25 on: December 24, 2014, 01:23:17 AM »
Mag's
If the inductor become's open circuit(power interupted),and the inductive kickback has no where to go,then there will be no current flow(or an extreem small amount),and the magnetic field will collap's almost instantly. Current cannot reverse direction if there is no current,and it is current that creat's the magnetic field-not voltage.Only the voltage reverses polarity,not the current when the power supply is disconected from the inductor-->this is the very reason the negative terminal of the charge battery is hooked to the positive terminal of the run battery in the SSG circuit.



Hey Tin

There is capacitance within the coil. The coil itself can have a resonant freq. It can oscillate when pulsed. It is a very tiny capacitance. So with the coil completely isolated from being able to discharge in the forward direction during field collapse, the charge is within the coils capacitance. Once the field collapses all the way, the charge across the coil will be peaked out. Once the charge begins to reverse, and we allow a path in reverse(back to battery, source) using a diode across the switch, then the field in the coil builds(because of current flow ) in the opposite polarity and the discharge goes back to source. The key is the switch, One that when turned of, will not allow the forward current. Like the spark in a reed of a pulse motor, the spark or blue glow is the switch leaking forward discharge from the coil, so no reversal of current or field.
It works in sim also.


Mags

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Re: Lenz free generator + a different pulse motor!
« Reply #25 on: December 24, 2014, 01:23:17 AM »
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Offline gyulasun

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Re: Lenz free generator + a different pulse motor!
« Reply #26 on: December 24, 2014, 05:04:36 PM »
....
 But do you see any problems in the generator side? If yes, could you please be kind and tell me about those as well? :) I just wanna learn and I appreciate any guidance and help very much :)
....


Hi Sam,

I took a snapshot from your video on the generator and indicated flux directions with two black and one red arrow. When any of the rotor magnets enters the airgap on the left (open) side of the C core, flux from the rotor magnet will choose two directions (trying to make a closed magnetic path) as the two black arrows indicate, first suppose there is no load and no capacitor on the output coil.
I assume the two cross sections of core path A and core path B are equal as are the permeabilities, and I know that path B may be a little longer than path A.

You can consider the two flux directions A and B as two low value resistors in parallel i.e. good flux conductors and an input current (the flux from the rotor magnet) flows through both of them when you connect a battery across them i.e. the flux entering from the magnet is shared more or less equally by the two pathes: Phitotal=PhiA + PhiB where Phitotal is the flux from any one entering magnet. 
This means that path B shunts path A (and vice versa of course) and roughly half of the input flux of a rotor magnet will participate in induction from the output coil point of view. This is bad news...

Now suppose you use a load resistor across the output coil (and no tuning capacitor yet). The red arrow indicates this counter flux what you mention and label as N2 in the video. This counter flux as you mention will close its magnetic circuit to S2 via path B.
You mentioned flux N2 can close its magnetic circuit via path B to S2, I agree.

Now if you use a tuning capacitor across the output coil to get resonance with the rotating magnets speed, two things may happen: one is that the induced voltage will be enhanced in amplitude by the Q quality factor of the RLC parallel resonant circuit and the other thing is that the resonant current in the coil (which is not present in the untuned case) may cause a drag to the rotor.
I do not think the output power will be higher by the mere application of a tuned circuit for the generator output, perhaps matching the load to this RLC circuit can optimize the output with respect to an untuned case (but of course a partial matching can also be done in the untuned case).
Regarding your further idea on increasing the output power by using further C cores: I do not think they would work and do what you expect them to do, (see my bad news above),  each added C core is bound to shunt each other, flux will be divided to as many pathes as the number of C cores.

I would draw your attention to John Bedini's almost similar setup where he also used rotor magnets embedded in a disk that enter and leave the (magnet biased) stator cores, see here his patent and the differences:
https://www.google.com/patents/US6392370

If you are lucky, then member erfinder may read this thread and perhaps will make some good pieces of advice on the Bedini setup because erfinder studied it deeply if I am not mistaken. 

Hope this helps.  If you have questions, I'll answer if I can  :)

Merry Xmas to you all.

Gyula

Offline life is illusion

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Re: Lenz free generator + a different pulse motor!
« Reply #27 on: December 25, 2014, 09:28:45 AM »

I took a snapshot from your video on the generator and indicated flux directions with two black and one red arrow. When any of the rotor magnets enters the airgap on the left (open) side of the C core, flux from the rotor magnet will choose two directions (trying to make a closed magnetic path) as the two black arrows indicate, first suppose there is no load and no capacitor on the output coil.

Gyula

Dear Gyula,
Thank you for explaining all that, I appreciate it :)
I agree with everything you mentioned, at least with everything I understood :D So I decided to make a small change in the shape of the core. Would you please let me know what you think about this one? In the picture we can see the same solenoid in different stages of construction. First I think we can make the central core and wind the mag wire around it. Then we could do the rest of the casting and add the iron oxide glue mixture to the sides of the central core to dry. By doing so, the N1 will have to go through the solenoid regardless of N2 pushing it away or not. I mean the N1 will cut the solenoid and induce current on the solenoid and when N2 is generated it will take the path of bypass and move away from the rotor. N1 has 3 options:

1_ Go back to the rotor and fight the incoming magnets.
2_ Go through the central core and find S1
3_ Go through the bypass along N2.

Do you think this "modification" will helps us in here at all?

BR
Sam

P.S Merry Christmas to all :)

Offline gyulasun

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Re: Lenz free generator + a different pulse motor!
« Reply #28 on: December 25, 2014, 12:45:32 PM »
Hi Sam,

If I got it correctly, the difference in your above drawing and the one in the video is that the ends of the generator coil (i.e. the winding) are extended to be in the incoming flux path, before the incoming flux is just about to branch.
However this is but a few percent more flux to have it participate in induction because the total length of the coil is still placed on the I core where still nearly half of the incoming flux is available for induction only.

So I can see a trifle difference in the possible operation between the two setups of the two drawings, I think they are quasi identical, hence the incoming magnet flux is still divided into path A and path B as my arrows showed.

You drew a dotted arrow for N1 towards path B and you drew a solid arrow for N1 towards path A: what makes you think that N1 would not go towards path B when entering the modified setup?

There would be a possibility to insure that flux N1 should not choose path B: letting some air gap between the I core of the solenoid and the C core on the right hand side. This way you would have a means of controlling the magnetic reluctance of the magnetic path and you could steer almost all the incoming flux towards the I core of the solenoid and only a little flux towards the C core on the right.

However, this air gap will also be present when the counter flux N2 appears (and it does appear in the very moment you attach a load resistor across the generator coil) so that the reluctance introduced will be there for N2 too.

However, the fact that the air gap can be chosen much smaller between the I and right hand side C core than the gap on the left side where the rotor magnets enter, you have a means for a trade-off how much part of the input flux participate in the desired induction in the I core and how much counterflux you let towards the right hand side C core.

And it still remains to be seen whether such air-gapped setup would produce more output power than it is needed for maintaining the rotation of the rotor magnets...   :(
Only carefully building it with minimal cogging to ultimately reduce input power and correct measuring can answer this. And, unfortunately, nobody has come along with positive results... (positive=more output than input) 
And of course this may mean two things: it is not possible to get more out than in with such setup, or those who did get more out than in keep silence...  ::)

One notice, you wrote this:  "By doing so, the N1 will have to go through the solenoid regardless of N2 pushing it away or not. I mean the N1 will cut the solenoid and induce current on the solenoid and when N2 is generated it will take the path of bypass and move away from the rotor."

As per Lenz law, it is not possible in your setup that flux N2 (i.e. the counter flux) should not fight against N1 in the I core too which is part of the core path for the solenoid. Because the source of flux N2 is the solenoid itself, when you attach a load to it, you immediately create and launch a second "rotor magnet" which ruins almost everything, showers most of the sunshine away...

Gyula

Offline kEhYo77

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Re: Lenz free generator + a different pulse motor!
« Reply #29 on: December 25, 2014, 01:20:39 PM »
Hi guyz.
In the attachment you can find a good solution to this. It is a frame from a guy's YT vid from a while back.
I works like this:
A magnet has to be strong enough to almost saturate the thin, front part of the core.
The center part, where the coil is has to be twice as thick as the front part to make some room for the CEMF flux from the loaded
generator coil which is being looped by the back keeper part of the core assembly. So the CEMF flux is effectively decoupled from the source
and does not influence EMF flux and thus the moving magnet.


@Gyula
I disagree with you on that, that the flux from the magnet will go through both legs of the core. If the permeability of the center core is high enough
the flux will take the shortest route leaving the back 'CEMF keeper' part of the core unaffected, ready to receive the flux from the generator coil.

Now we just have to organize the geometry around the rotor as in Muller ODD/EVEN no magnets/coils and we have ourselves an excellent OU generator :)
kEhYo

 

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