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Author Topic: Lenz free generator  (Read 513926 times)

i_ron

• Hero Member
• Posts: 1160
Re: Lenz free generator
« Reply #150 on: August 12, 2016, 08:55:24 PM »
@I_ron
I'm not sure if you know this but I built and tested the motor you are trying to build as well as a generator based on the same principals around 5 years ago. I built and tested many variations of both and posted some of the designs in this forum. I built one similar motor in which the driving coil could not be induced by the rotor magnet in any way which was kind of neat.

Here is what I found concerning the motor your trying to build, first there is no flow and there are no flux lines and there are no North/South poles as these are simply notations. The field has direction we call polarity and it has field density we call strength or magnitude. In your video you simply demonstrated the fact that opposite poles attract and like poles repel. What makes this setup different however is the fact that the rotor magnet is simultaneously in attraction and repulsion with only one stator coil but utilizing the field from both ends of the coil in the same instance.

Now why do you suppose the strongest force is in the middle?, because the magnet is interacting with both poles of the coil simultaneously not only one. Why does the rotor magnet lock up at the coil ends?, when the coil is off the magnetic field from the magnet couples to the core material which ends at the end of the core. When the coil is on the magnetic field from the magnet couples to the nearest unlike pole and is repelled from the nearest like pole. You can prevent the lock up at the coil poles by momentarily switching off the current at the poles and you may also reverse the coil current after the magnet has left the coil poles to increase the force on the rotor. Why switch at the center of the stator coil or supposed bloch wall?, because the rotor magnet interacts with both stator coil poles equally following the inverse square law. As well we should note that at the exact center of the stator core the field from the rotor magnet should diverge towards both ends of the stator core equally provided the coil was not energized prior. Does this matter?... maybe it does maybe it doesn't.

What I can tell you is your not going anywhere using that infernal manual switch shown in the video, the switching must be of the proper magnitude, timing and duration with respect to the rotor magnet.

AC

OK, that is the best description I have heard so far. I can agree with that.

I was not aware that you had built these motors so this is the information I sought,

Thanks

Ron

i_ron

• Hero Member
• Posts: 1160
Re: Lenz free generator
« Reply #151 on: August 12, 2016, 09:49:14 PM »
@I_ron

What I can tell you is your not going anywhere using that infernal manual switch shown in the video, the switching must be of the proper magnitude, timing and duration with respect to the rotor magnet.

AC

Then to if you were more familiar with my work....

That was a quick and nasty red neck switch used to make a point.

Below is a better example of my switching on Phil Wood's 16/24 somaloy cored Motor. It is an hall effect switched, to 7555 one shots and CD4011 lock out logic to a MC33883 H bridge pre driver. 20 pin soic's are just a bit beyond my board making skills so I have taken to using break out boards... and this helps in trouble shooting also as they are pluggable.

However for the Zero Force what I had in mind was opto's to a  gate driver and mosfet... on a bread board, nothing to out of the ordinary

Ron

EMJunkie

• Hero Member
• Posts: 3322
Re: Lenz free generator
« Reply #152 on: August 12, 2016, 10:20:34 PM »
@EMJ

Here's the trick, the hall effect sensor only measures the flux through the sensor face which means it is a directional sensor. In my Labview setup with an oscilloscope graph and bar graph I can easily see large swings at any given point simply by rotating the sensor on it's axis. This tells me the exact direction of the flux at any given point and the max value correlates to the max field density and direction. In effect simply moving the sensor face straight through any region will always give inaccurate readings because the flux/sensor face angle changes.

In effect when I_ron was taking his gauss meter readings and the measure approached zero near the pole this was not because the field strength was decreasing to zero. It was because the direction of the flux was now near 90 degrees to the sensor face and the sensor could not detect it. As I said we must be very careful concerning what we think we are measuring and how we are taking the measurement. If the flux direction is 45 degrees off from the sensor face then we see about one half the real field density measurement and when the flux direction is 90 degrees off from the sensor face we see zero of the real field density measurement. For the record, last year I was making the same mistake as I_ron and my graphs should have been corrected to compensate for the sensor face/flux direction deviations.

AC

Hi AC,

Of course I completely agree, orientation to Field Line Vector is important.

We see readings, from our experiments that are not holding with the Field Line experiments that we have done. Iron Filing Experiment is the worst for our Result, showing we should see a fairly linear reading throughout most of the length of the Magnet. This we’re not seeing.

Generally by following the Flux Line, we should see a value that is the inverse square of the distance from the strongest point. Which should be the pole.

As the probe measures both polarities, and North and a South, this could explain the inverse readings, as the probe reaches the Mid-Point, there is equal field strengths and the probe sees a maximum force each side of the Sensor at this point.

The will actually give us a false reading. I am hesitant to say we are reading the same thing twice, as realistically, we are not, or are we...

The Magnet still holds some Mysteries!

Chris Sykes
hyiq.org

P.S: The Link: Fun with Vortex Rings in the Pool
« Last Edit: August 13, 2016, 02:26:50 AM by EMJunkie »

gyulasun

• Hero Member
• Posts: 4139
Re: Lenz free generator
« Reply #153 on: August 12, 2016, 10:28:47 PM »
....
Why does the rotor magnet lock up at the coil ends?, when the coil is off the magnetic field from the magnet couples to the core material which ends at the end of the core.
...
Why switch at the center of the stator coil or supposed bloch wall?, because the rotor magnet interacts with both stator coil poles equally following the inverse square law. As well we should note that at the exact center of the stator core the field from the rotor magnet should diverge towards both ends of the stator core equally provided the coil was not energized prior. Does this matter?... maybe it does maybe it doesn't.
....

Hi AC,

Would like to tell you that in Bedini's zero force motor setup there is no ferromagnetic core in the coils, they are air cored or rather 'some kind of plastic bobbin' cored to form the two half toroidal coil shapes. This turned out from some of the short descriptions JB gave on his setup on another forum.
I believe that your understanding on the poles in this setup is correct.  By the way, as per JB the rotor magnets ride on the A-field of the (toroidal) stator coils.

Gyula

EMJunkie

• Hero Member
• Posts: 3322
Re: Lenz free generator
« Reply #154 on: August 12, 2016, 10:55:12 PM »

Then to if you were more familiar with my work....

That was a quick and nasty red neck switch used to make a point.

Below is a better example of my switching on Phil Wood's 16/24 somaloy cored Motor. It is an hall effect switched, to 7555 one shots and CD4011 lock out logic to a MC33883 H bridge pre driver. 20 pin soic's are just a bit beyond my board making skills so I have taken to using break out boards... and this helps in trouble shooting also as they are pluggable.

However for the Zero Force what I had in mind was opto's to a  gate driver and mosfet... on a bread board, nothing to out of the ordinary

Ron

Nice Build Ron!!!

Chris Sykes
hyiq.org

• Hero Member
• Posts: 1317
Re: Lenz free generator
« Reply #155 on: August 12, 2016, 11:50:56 PM »
@I_ron
Quote
Below is a better example of my switching on Phil Wood's 16/24 somaloy cored Motor. It is an hall effect switched, to 7555 one shots and CD4011 lock out logic to a MC33883 H bridge pre driver. 20 pin soic's are just a bit beyond my board making skills so I have taken to using break out boards... and this helps in trouble shooting also as they are pluggable.

Hall effect/one shot's are the way to go in my opinion and I have used hall effect switches which have pretty decent rise/fall times on their own. Lately I found it easier to just use a cheap micro-controller such as the Arduino Pro mini 328 to build custom waveforms and control switching on the software end. Getting too old for that bread boarding stuff which takes way to long and it is too hard to modify the parameters.

Quote
However for the Zero Force what I had in mind was opto's to a gate driver and mosfet... on a bread board, nothing to out of the ordinary

That sounds like a good plan and an easy way to set duration is to use two sensor/switches. Generally we have issues with rise/fall times relating to the semiconductors used however if one switch is used to turn on the coil and another separate switch is used to turn it off then the switch separation determines the duration. Here is the trick... if the second switch is on the other side of the rotor then the on/off switching can occur within nearly the same time frame giving switching durations we cannot achieve any other way. You see it takes the semiconductor lag times out of the equation because they can be compensated for by the physical switch overlap and the fact there are now two switches in the circuit. Theoretically the off switch could even be activated before the on switch if the semiconductor lag is slightly greater on the off switching and the difference in lag is now the actual switching duration, lol. Seemingly impossible problems require creative solutions.

I learned many neat tricks testing different motor/generator geometries, invented a lot of stuff to solve whatever problems happened to pop up along the way and had a lot of fun doing it.

AC

tinman

• Hero Member
• Posts: 5242
Re: Lenz free generator
« Reply #156 on: August 13, 2016, 12:17:46 AM »
@I_ron
I'm not sure if you know this but I built and tested the motor you are trying to build as well as a generator based on the same principals around 5 years ago. I built and tested many variations of both and posted some of the designs in this forum. I built one similar motor in which the driving coil could not be induced by the rotor magnet in any way which was kind of neat.

Here is what I found concerning the motor your trying to build, first there is no flow and there are no flux lines and there are no North/South poles as these are simply notations. The field has direction we call polarity and it has field density we call strength or magnitude. In your video you simply demonstrated the fact that opposite poles attract and like poles repel. What makes this setup different however is the fact that the rotor magnet is simultaneously in attraction and repulsion with only one stator coil but utilizing the field from both ends of the coil in the same instance.

What I can tell you is your not going anywhere using that infernal manual switch shown in the video, the switching must be of the proper magnitude, timing and duration with respect to the rotor magnet.

AC

Quote
Now why do you suppose the strongest force is in the middle?, because the magnet is interacting with both poles of the coil simultaneously not only one. Why does the rotor magnet lock up at the coil ends?, when the coil is off the magnetic field from the magnet couples to the core material which ends at the end of the core. When the coil is on the magnetic field from the magnet couples to the nearest unlike pole and is repelled from the nearest like pole. You can prevent the lock up at the coil poles by momentarily switching off the current at the poles and you may also reverse the coil current after the magnet has left the coil poles to increase the force on the rotor. Why switch at the center of the stator coil or supposed bloch wall?, because the rotor magnet interacts with both stator coil poles equally following the inverse square law. As well we should note that at the exact center of the stator core the field from the rotor magnet should diverge towards both ends of the stator core equally provided the coil was not energized prior. Does this matter?... maybe it does maybe it doesn't.

If that was the case,then the magnet should see the same force anywhere along that coil,because even though it may be further away from one pole,it will be closer to the other,and so if you want to use your inverse square law,then the force applied to the magnet should be equal anywhere along that coils length--but it is no. The greatest force against that magnet will be at the center of the coil,not at either end.
Inverse square law-->The intensity of the influence at any given radius r is the source strength divided by the area of the sphere. Being strictly geometric in its origin, the inverse square law applies to diverse phenomena. Point sources of gravitational force, electric field, light, sound or radiation obey the inverse square law.

Below is a quick sketch of field strength of a coil when a current is applied.
With the zero force motor(as is with any other PM DC motor) you would want to switch the coil on when the magnet on the rotor is a point 3,and switch of when the magnet is at point 5.
If a thin pancake type coil was made(the secondary)to slide over the primary(coil depicted),then the greatest output from the secondary-when the primary was pulsed with a DC current,or an AC current is applied to the primary,will be when the secondary is at point 4.

The mid point of a PM or an electromagnet is not a bloch wall,nor is it void of a magnetic field.
It is in fact the point where the magnetic field is greatest.

• Hero Member
• Posts: 1317
Re: Lenz free generator
« Reply #157 on: August 13, 2016, 01:39:43 AM »
@tinman
Quote
If that was the case,then the magnet should see the same force anywhere along that coil,because even though it may be further away from one pole,it will be closer to the other,and so if you want to use your inverse square law,then the force applied to the magnet should be equal anywhere along that coils length--but it is no. The greatest force against that magnet will be at the center of the coil,not at either end.

I know what your saying however the devil is always in the details. A magnet is not a coil, a straight coil as you have depicted is not a semi-circular coil following the circumference of the rotor... all act very different under different circumstances. In your picture of a straight coil with a circular rotor then yes I agree with you. If it were a straight coil on a core then yes I agree, if it was a semi-circular coil then probably no and a semi-circular coil on a core then probably no.

Quote
[size=0px]Inverse square law-->[/size][size=0px]The intensity of the influence at any given radius r is the source strength divided by the area of the sphere. Being strictly geometric in its origin, the inverse square law applies to diverse phenomena. Point sources of gravitational force, electric field, light, sound or radiation obey the inverse square law.[/size]

Realistically this is just a fancy way of saying the change in field strength falls off faster than the change in distance that's all.

Quote
Below is a quick sketch of field strength of a coil when a current is applied.
With the zero force motor(as is with any other PM DC motor) you would want to switch the coil on when the magnet on the rotor is a point 3,and switch of when the magnet is at point 5.

I would agree with that based on the picture you posted with reservations. If the field density of the coil is low then we may have flux leakage through the coil turns and the magnet will not couple to the field of the whole coil due to the inverse square law. I believe this may be how we differ in opinion as you seem to see everything as black and white where I see nothing but shades of grey. If the rotor magnet is a weak ceramic then the coil field may dominate the equation and if the rotor magnet is the best neo magnet money can buy then it may dominate again depending on the coil field density and other variables. In effect your making generalizations I cannot decipher... I need specifics, I'm not the amazing kreskin.

Quote
The mid point of a PM or an electromagnet is not a bloch wall,nor is it void of a magnetic field.
It is in fact the point where the magnetic field is greatest.

That is your opinion, I'm working to prove you and others wrong. I have in fact proven the neutral point with respect to the electric field therefore I see no reason I cannot prove it with magnetic and gravic fields. Don't get me wrong, you make valid points I just don't believe them based on the lack of details and what I have seen for myself.

AC

EMJunkie

• Hero Member
• Posts: 3322
Re: Lenz free generator
« Reply #158 on: August 13, 2016, 01:41:55 AM »
If that was the case,then the magnet should see the same force anywhere along that coil,because even though it may be further away from one pole,it will be closer to the other,and so if you want to use your inverse square law,then the force applied to the magnet should be equal anywhere along that coils length--but it is no. The greatest force against that magnet will be at the center of the coil,not at either end.
Inverse square law-->The intensity of the influence at any given radius r is the source strength divided by the area of the sphere. Being strictly geometric in its origin, the inverse square law applies to diverse phenomena. Point sources of gravitational force, electric field, light, sound or radiation obey the inverse square law.

Below is a quick sketch of field strength of a coil when a current is applied.
With the zero force motor(as is with any other PM DC motor) you would want to switch the coil on when the magnet on the rotor is a point 3,and switch of when the magnet is at point 5.
If a thin pancake type coil was made(the secondary)to slide over the primary(coil depicted),then the greatest output from the secondary-when the primary was pulsed with a DC current,or an AC current is applied to the primary,will be when the secondary is at point 4.

The mid point of a PM or an electromagnet is not a bloch wall,nor is it void of a magnetic field.
It is in fact the point where the magnetic field is greatest.

I agree the "Force" at the central point of the Magnet, Permanent or Electromagnet, is the greatest force in the System.

I am not sure I would call this "Force", the Magnetic Field however. We can see the Magnetic Field lines from the pole, are definitely an Inverse Square phenomena, the Conical structure shows us this, see Image Below:

What does this mean, a few points of view can be taken here.

Well, a Fire Hose, full flow, the water force is very much greater in Strength and Velocity at the Nozzle, than 40 feet away where it hits its target!!! This is the Inverse Square Law. For example, if we increase pressure at the Nozzle, we increase the Distance that the Water can Travel over the course of Time!

The Thrust Equation is an example of this:

F = (m dot * V)e - (m dot * V)0 + (pe - p0) * Ae

or to simplify:

Force = mass * acceleration

The Force F is only defined at the Point of the Nozzle though! So the Inverse Square Law gives us the Force F at a distance:

B = μ0 /2 π I/r

But the Strength is H, not B of the Magnetic Field! Well H is simply:

H = B/μ0

This gives us the Conical Structure we see in the Ferro Fluid, the Greater the Magnetic Field Strength (H) the bigger the Spikes we get!!!

So, the Force F we see at the Center of the Permanent or Electromagnet, is not the Magnetic Field, as the Ferrofluid Image above shows. This Force, it not showing Magnetic Field Line properties, it is a part of the Magnet to be explored further, and our very own Earth may give us some Ideas:

Chris Sykes
hyiq.org

P.S: Ferro Fluid is a Mass and thus will not show the true line of force due to Gravity, the weight on the Fluid will reduce the Conical length some. Of course, all this is my opinion from my research.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2016, 12:31:50 PM by EMJunkie »

i_ron

• Hero Member
• Posts: 1160
Re: Zero Force Motor
« Reply #159 on: August 16, 2016, 04:47:17 AM »

Well here it is running

https://youtu.be/SGRBk6lWAf4

Ron

EMJunkie

• Hero Member
• Posts: 3322
Re: Lenz free generator
« Reply #160 on: August 16, 2016, 05:19:27 AM »

Awesome work Ron!!! Real nice clean build there!!!

Chris Sykes
hyiq.org

tinman

• Hero Member
• Posts: 5242
Re: Zero Force Motor
« Reply #161 on: August 16, 2016, 03:56:25 PM »

Well here it is running

https://youtu.be/SGRBk6lWAf4

Ron

Very nice build Ron,and a decent RPM as well.

Why amount of power dose it consume at top speed ?, and are you collecting,or using the inductive kickback ?.

i_ron

• Hero Member
• Posts: 1160
Re: Zero Force Motor
« Reply #162 on: August 16, 2016, 05:23:57 PM »
Very nice build Ron,and a decent RPM as well.

What amount of power does it consume at top speed ?, and are you collecting,or using the inductive kickback ?.

haven't done any tests yet but it is running with a diode across the two coils, will play with it to day, all going well

Ron

i_ron

• Hero Member
• Posts: 1160
Re: Zero Force Motor
« Reply #163 on: August 16, 2016, 07:51:00 PM »

haven't done any tests yet but it is running with a diode across the two coils, will play with it to day, all going well

Ron

OK, on me old Micronta 22-214 analog multimeter I get ,somewhere near the start, a reading of 270 mA, dropping to 200 mA after some running time.

1.7 mS pulse looks like this: (there are six per revolution)

It does generate a small voltage incidentally.

Ron

i_ron

• Hero Member
• Posts: 1160
Re: Zero Force Motor
« Reply #164 on: August 19, 2016, 05:05:52 PM »