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Author Topic: Lenz free generator  (Read 309433 times)

Offline tinman

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Re: Lenz free generator
« Reply #135 on: August 12, 2016, 01:07:57 AM »

Sort of confirmation is a test I did with the zero force coil.


Ron

Indeed Ron
Good job.

I would love to see your zero force motor up and running when it's completed.

Brad

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Lenz free generator
« Reply #135 on: August 12, 2016, 01:07:57 AM »

Offline EMJunkie

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Re: Lenz free generator
« Reply #136 on: August 12, 2016, 01:24:04 AM »

Sort of confirmation is a test I did with the zero force coil.


Ron


Nice Work Ron!!!

If you have more than one kind of Hall Probe, I recommend running the same test again with that. I have done this test and got different results with different probes. This was back on the "Magnet Myths and Misconceptions" thread some time back.

Please excuse my behaviour, there was a bit of a harassment going on in those days between parties.

   Chris Sykes
       hyiq.org


P.S: Some very awesome work from AllCanadian sparked those experiments off: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions - Post: 635



Offline i_ron

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Re: Lenz free generator
« Reply #137 on: August 12, 2016, 03:00:44 AM »

Nice Work Ron!!!

If you have more than one kind of Hall Probe, I recommend running the same test again with that. I have done this test and got different results with different probes. This was back on the "Magnet Myths and Misconceptions" thread some time back.

Please excuse my behaviour, there was a bit of a harassment going on in those days between parties.

   Chris Sykes
       hyiq.org




Thanks Chris,


Were you reading the forum back on page 7? Because to days test is more or less confirmation of my video:


https://youtu.be/yC4g0XCgEqM


Ron

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Lenz free generator
« Reply #137 on: August 12, 2016, 03:00:44 AM »
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Offline EMJunkie

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Re: Lenz free generator
« Reply #138 on: August 12, 2016, 03:11:23 AM »



Thanks Chris,


Were you reading the forum back on page 7? Because to days test is more or less confirmation of my video:


https://youtu.be/yC4g0XCgEqM


Ron



I did see that, yes! I thought I had responded?

Sorry, looks like I may have lost a post somewhere...

Nice Work, it is simple experiments like this, that we can learn the most from!

   Chris Sykes
       hyiq.org

Offline i_ron

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Re: Lenz free generator
« Reply #139 on: August 12, 2016, 03:12:16 AM »
Indeed Ron
Good job.

I would love to see your zero force motor up and running when it's completed.

Brad


Thanks Brad, I hesitate to predict when that might take place as Murphy likes me and hangs around here a lot. For example I was busy machining the rotor yesterday when the hot water tank sprung a leak, so I switched hats and got the vacuum cleaner out to suck up the lake and the switch chose that moment to go west... anyway, all the little chores done now and so back to the project in the morning.


Ron

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Lenz free generator
« Reply #139 on: August 12, 2016, 03:12:16 AM »
Sponsored links:




Offline i_ron

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Re: Lenz free generator
« Reply #140 on: August 12, 2016, 03:19:25 AM »


I did see that, yes! I thought I had responded?

Sorry, looks like I may have lost a post somewhere...

Nice Work, it is simple experiments like this, that we can learn the most from!

   Chris Sykes
       hyiq.org


 now that you mention it , yes you did, I was having a seniors moment... I will be 81 end of this month, so I can get away with a lot, LOL


Ron

Offline Magluvin

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Re: Lenz free generator
« Reply #141 on: August 12, 2016, 03:31:28 AM »

Sort of confirmation is a test I did with the zero force coil.


Ron

Now test top to bottom with the hall arrow pointing to the right. As in the hall face outward from the coil/magnet.

It is not that all of the N face flux goes all the way to the S face. Some reenters the sides. You can see this with the hall. Once you get the grip with XYZ of the hall orientation you will be able to map out the fields of the coil/mag.

Mags

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Lenz free generator
« Reply #141 on: August 12, 2016, 03:31:28 AM »
Sponsored links:




Offline EMJunkie

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Re: Lenz free generator
« Reply #142 on: August 12, 2016, 04:17:37 AM »

 now that you mention it , yes you did, I was having a seniors moment... I will be 81 end of this month, so I can get away with a lot, LOL


Ron


Totally understand Ron, no problem! Me too some days!


   Chris Sykes
       hyiq.org

Offline i_ron

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Re: Lenz free generator
« Reply #143 on: August 12, 2016, 05:39:26 AM »
Now test top to bottom with the hall arrow pointing to the right. As in the hall face outward from the coil/magnet.

It is not that all of the N face flux goes all the way to the S face. Some reenters the sides. You can see this with the hall. Once you get the grip with XYZ of the hall orientation you will be able to map out the fields of the coil/mag.

Mags


Quite true Mags, there is a definite north and south demarcation when oriented so.


However, as the question pertains to the zero force motor, the right question to ask is what is the orientation of the force that drives the external magnet. In this case the motion would be radially into and out from the coil so is it not safe to stick with the longer looping flux lines?
They seem to be the ones doing the work.


You can see these short lines in the jpg but I think it is the longer loops that we need to watch


Thanks, Ron


 



Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Lenz free generator
« Reply #143 on: August 12, 2016, 05:39:26 AM »
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Offline allcanadian

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Re: Lenz free generator
« Reply #144 on: August 12, 2016, 07:06:08 AM »
@tinman
Quote
Lets look at the picture below-->what color line has the highest total magnetic flux flowing through it in one direction ?


Okay I see where your going, however the textbook picture you posted below is inaccurate and the actual total field at the center (blue line) can extend many feet to the side as can the total field past the poles (red line).


Quote
What part of the field would cause the greatest induction to occur in a secondary coil?.


The poles I think because while there may be slightly less lines (less flux) the line density is greater (greater field density). In reality a coil will never be induced by all the flux lines at the center red line unless your coil is two feet in diameter which is impractical. On the other hand a small coil covering the whole pole face/end will be induced by nearly all the flux having a very much greater flux density.


You did try covering the whole pole face/end of the core/coil with a secondary coil of identical wire length to your center coil to determine the difference in inductive properties didn't you?. The problem we know all too well is that most of the time our best laid plans are foiled by reality. We see a picture in a textbook or run a simulation and say hey this looks easy. Then we hit the bench and all hell breaks loose and nothing is as it seemed, that's reality and it's a bitch.


Meanwhile I noticed an anomaly in the hall sensor scans I did a year or so ago which EMJ referred to that may prove interesting...back to the bench.


AC

Offline EMJunkie

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Re: Lenz free generator
« Reply #145 on: August 12, 2016, 09:07:20 AM »
@tinman

Okay I see where your going, however the textbook picture you posted below is inaccurate and the actual total field at the center (blue line) can extend many feet to the side as can the total field past the poles (red line).



The poles I think because while there may be slightly less lines (less flux) the line density is greater (greater field density). In reality a coil will never be induced by all the flux lines at the center red line unless your coil is two feet in diameter which is impractical. On the other hand a small coil covering the whole pole face/end will be induced by nearly all the flux having a very much greater flux density.


You did try covering the whole pole face/end of the core/coil with a secondary coil of identical wire length to your center coil to determine the difference in inductive properties didn't you?. The problem we know all too well is that most of the time our best laid plans are foiled by reality. We see a picture in a textbook or run a simulation and say hey this looks easy. Then we hit the bench and all hell breaks loose and nothing is as it seemed, that's reality and it's a bitch.


Meanwhile I noticed an anomaly in the hall sensor scans I did a year or so ago which EMJ referred to that may prove interesting...back to the bench.


AC



@Ron, it may be worth reading the posts referred to? It was a lengthy investigation!


@AC and Tinman:

We were right, we still are, we found some interesting data, data that gave us some insight!!!

We were right, the Iron Filing experiment is inherently flawed, we pointed this out many times, none listened!!!

@AC - I too have found that some Hall Probes are problematic, I asked Ron to try a few different types for this reason. I don’t want to speculate too much, but suspect that some probes detect the Electric Field Intensity as the Magnetic Field and as a result gives an Incorrect Magnetic Field Reading. I am not totally sure on this however...

   Chris Sykes
       hyiq.org

P.S: Iron Filings make lots of patterns, each being its own tiny Magnet in its own right:

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Lenz free generator
« Reply #145 on: August 12, 2016, 09:07:20 AM »
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Offline EMJunkie

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Re: Lenz free generator
« Reply #146 on: August 12, 2016, 11:39:04 AM »



To prove the point, of Field Lines, I should have gone and spent $20 on some Ferro Fluid.

Examining why this is as it is, the following Image, should really start those interested asking some hard serious questions: Credit: Ferrofluid Piston This s a very cool experiment also!!!

   Chris Sykes
       hyiq.org


Offline allcanadian

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Re: Lenz free generator
« Reply #147 on: August 12, 2016, 02:56:10 PM »
@EMJ
Quote
@AC - I too have found that some Hall Probes are problematic, I asked Ron to try a few different types for this reason. I don’t want to speculate too much, but suspect that some probes detect the Electric Field Intensity as the Magnetic Field and as a result gives an Incorrect Magnetic Field Reading. I am not totally sure on this however...


Here's the trick, the hall effect sensor only measures the flux through the sensor face which means it is a directional sensor. In my Labview setup with an oscilloscope graph and bar graph I can easily see large swings at any given point simply by rotating the sensor on it's axis. This tells me the exact direction of the flux at any given point and the max value correlates to the max field density and direction. In effect simply moving the sensor face straight through any region will always give inaccurate readings because the flux/sensor face angle changes.

In effect when I_ron was taking his gauss meter readings and the measure approached zero near the pole this was not because the field strength was decreasing to zero. It was because the direction of the flux was now near 90 degrees to the sensor face and the sensor could not detect it. As I said we must be very careful concerning what we think we are measuring and how we are taking the measurement. If the flux direction is 45 degrees off from the sensor face then we see about one half the real field density measurement and when the flux direction is 90 degrees off from the sensor face we see zero of the real field density measurement. For the record, last year I was making the same mistake as I_ron and my graphs should have been corrected to compensate for the sensor face/flux direction deviations.

AC

Offline i_ron

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Re: Lenz free generator
« Reply #148 on: August 12, 2016, 04:59:29 PM »


In effect when I_ron was taking his gauss meter readings and the measure approached zero near the pole this was not because the field strength was decreasing to zero. It was because the direction of the flux was now near 90 degrees to the sensor face and the sensor could not detect it. As I said we must be very careful concerning what we think we are measuring and how we are taking the measurement. If the flux direction is 45 degrees off from the sensor face then we see about one half the real field density measurement and when the flux direction is 90 degrees off from the sensor face we see zero of the real field density measurement. For the record I was making the same mistakes as I_ron and my graphs should have been corrected to compensate for the sensor face/flux direction deviations.

AC


AC, you are quite correct... but this is rather obvious and not something I was attempting to ignore or circumvent.


To try and keep this discussion relevant let me again state, that as tinman built JB's Zero Force motor and I am currently in the process of building one the focus was on the directionality of the flux lines that propel the external magnet along its path.


Now JB claims to switch "at the block wall", Whereas tinman and myself are suggesting that this is not relevant. What I was attempting to show in my video was that there are two lock up points at each end of a solenoid coil and that in between  there is a rather continuous motive force independent of any block wall... and that the strongest field is in the middle.


My understanding at the moment is that these flux lines are a flow. That any static depiction is inherently misleading because the inclusion of an external magnet and the "flow" automatically adjusts to conform to this intrusion.


That said I am learning, thanks for all your inputs, they are appreciated.


Ron 




Offline allcanadian

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Re: Lenz free generator
« Reply #149 on: August 12, 2016, 07:20:32 PM »
@I_ron
Quote
To try and keep this discussion relevant let me again state, that as tinman built JB's Zero Force motor and I am currently in the process of building one the focus was on the directionality of the flux lines that propel the external magnet along its path.

Now JB claims to switch "at the block wall", Whereas tinman and myself are suggesting that this is not relevant. What I was attempting to show in my video was that there are two lock up points at each end of a solenoid coil and that in between  there is a rather continuous motive force independent of any block wall... and that the strongest field is in the middle.

My understanding at the moment is that these flux lines are a flow. That any static depiction is inherently misleading because the inclusion of an external magnet and the "flow" automatically adjusts to conform to this intrusion.

I'm not sure if you know this but I built and tested the motor you are trying to build as well as a generator based on the same principals around 5 years ago. I built and tested many variations of both and posted some of the designs in this forum. I built one similar motor in which the driving coil could not be induced by the rotor magnet in any way which was kind of neat.

Here is what I found concerning the motor your trying to build, first there is no flow and there are no flux lines and there are no North/South poles as these are simply notations. The field has direction we call polarity and it has field density we call strength or magnitude. In your video you simply demonstrated the fact that opposite poles attract and like poles repel. What makes this setup different however is the fact that the rotor magnet is simultaneously in attraction and repulsion with only one stator coil but utilizing the field from both ends of the coil in the same instance.

Now why do you suppose the strongest force is in the middle?, because the magnet is interacting with both poles of the coil simultaneously not only one. Why does the rotor magnet lock up at the coil ends?, when the coil is off the magnetic field from the magnet couples to the core material which ends at the end of the core. When the coil is on the magnetic field from the magnet couples to the nearest unlike pole and is repelled from the nearest like pole. You can prevent the lock up at the coil poles by momentarily switching off the current at the poles and you may also reverse the coil current after the magnet has left the coil poles to increase the force on the rotor. Why switch at the center of the stator coil or supposed bloch wall?, because the rotor magnet interacts with both stator coil poles equally following the inverse square law. As well we should note that at the exact center of the stator core the field from the rotor magnet should diverge towards both ends of the stator core equally provided the coil was not energized prior. Does this matter?... maybe it does maybe it doesn't.

What I can tell you is your not going anywhere using that infernal manual switch shown in the video, the switching must be of the proper magnitude, timing and duration with respect to the rotor magnet.

AC



 

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