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Author Topic: Delayed Lenz or not?... post your explaination!  (Read 77528 times)

dieter

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Re: Delayed Lenz or not?... post your explaination!
« Reply #120 on: December 22, 2014, 05:47:19 AM »
Thanks Tinsel, just found it. Rather hidden imho. Anyhow, got to add some nicks there...

MileHigh

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Re: Delayed Lenz or not?... post your explaination!
« Reply #121 on: December 22, 2014, 05:54:58 AM »
The test was using a 25 Ohm load. Show me the post where I wrote a 25 Ohm load will have no increased in power draw.
Also, I was testing this with half the RPM and power input then the first test but it's clear to me now that you are not here to help a researcher as you have once again taken the first opportunity to try to discredit me and that I don't know what I'm doing.

You will not be able to support your written statement above and I'm no longer going to bother replying to your posts.

Best to move along now

Regards

Luc

Yes I made a mistake there.  You stated that there would be no increased power draw from the prime mover for a load that dissipated less power than the 25-ohm load.  I think that you were referring to the one-ohm load test when you said that.  I told you that there was no "magic" there and you were simply "wanting to believe" what the Kill-a-Watt meter was showing you even through it was an inappropriate measuring device for your setup.  Not to mention the fact that you should have known beforehand that the Lenz drag was there.

So I may have been wrong about the value of the load resistor and the amount of power we are talking about, but the principle of what I stated remains true.  You stated that you could use a generator coil to output power into a one-ohm load resistor with no affect on the prime mover and that statement is completely wrong.

And right now you are probably set up to see if there is a change in the power draw of the motor when you use a one-ohm resistor on the generator coil.  I can't be sure that you will have the precision, but it sure as hell looks like you will.   So, supposing you do indeed see an increased power draw by the motor when you compare no-load on the generator coil vs. a one-ohm load on the generator coil?  Then what?

Notice you are just being nit-picky about one comment and you are ignoring the entire discussion about the experimental results.

What I said about your experimental results is 100% valid.  There is no "1.1 watts of gained power."  That conclusion is wrong.  So what are you going to do about that issue?

MileHigh

synchro1

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Re: Delayed Lenz or not?... post your explaination!
« Reply #122 on: December 22, 2014, 06:29:27 AM »
@Milehigh,

That 1.1 watts has to be converted to "Negative Microhenries" to get your heat loss formula to work, and what that results in is cooling.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2014, 05:59:30 PM by synchro1 »

ramset

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Re: Delayed Lenz or not?... post your explaination!
« Reply #123 on: December 22, 2014, 06:34:37 AM »
MH
its not always what you say
its how you say it
and to boot, instead of offering a quick fix to focus the data being generated by the DUT .
you throw it back on your "student" for another opportunity to embarrass.


such holes in your "help"  do make one wonder what you are truly doing here or just how much you really have done on the bench ...


just a 100% valid observation...
and I'll leave you alone here too....
thx
Chet



MileHigh

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Re: Delayed Lenz or not?... post your explaination!
« Reply #124 on: December 22, 2014, 06:52:54 AM »
Chet:

Right.  All of the experimenters have delicate fragile egos.  Everything has to be oh so delicate.  You have to rewrite your prose several times so that it sounds like a Hallmark greeting card.  Yes, you have to invest three times the energy and three times the time every time you make a posting to correct or educate somebody but that's the way it is.  Heaven forbid if you just state the facts in a neutral way.

You are wrong about my motivations and are just putting a negative spin on them.

Meanwhile, have you ever seen me maliciously and viscously attacked?  How many times have you seen that happen?  How often have you protested this with somebody that is clearly going over the line?  Not too often, eh?  Perhaps even never.

Luc was given the real analysis of his testing.  Also, many times he has been corrected for mistakes by myself and others and I think that it is very rare that he acknowledges his mistakes and clarifies his position.  There is no special halo over Luc or any other experimenter.  Anybody that makes a mistake when they are in a public forum and sharing knowledge should ideally acknowledge their mistake and clarify where they stand.   Right now Luc is trying to do some tests related to the whole DLE issue and he interpreted his data incorrectly.  So what are you going to do?  Pretend that his interpretation is not wrong and encourage him?  Hire a writer from a greeting card company?  Shoot me?

MileHigh

ramset

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Re: Delayed Lenz or not?... post your explaination!
« Reply #125 on: December 22, 2014, 07:08:44 AM »
MH
I don't really read the war threads you frequent ,or follow the back and forth Venom  ,
I just happened to read a few of the threads today that you posted on ,one reply to Wings made my hair stand up [JLN Lenz Vid] and you treatment of Luc seems like your wishing more to embarrass and less to help.


why not help focus his test with some simple suggestions,perhaps a fixed loss to ambient protocol would  help for comparison and acc't for all the power in and  and heat ?


some simple suggestions to help ,and actually acquire useful data .


I'm hittin the sack
Chet




MileHigh

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Re: Delayed Lenz or not?... post your explaination!
« Reply #126 on: December 22, 2014, 07:29:34 AM »
Chet:

This is what I posted to Wings, "I have already discussed that clip and there is nothing there.  If you disagree feel free to make your points."

Why would that make your hair stand up?

Luc has just been given the straight goods from me and it's not to embarrass him.  If he wants less "critical" comments the way for him to get there is to keep on learning and improving.  That's up to him.  When anybody arrives at the wrong conclusion from a test then one of their peers should correct them.  If not you have complete stagnation where people are afraid to correct each other.

Quote
I don't really read the war threads you frequent ,or follow the back and forth Venom

Hey, I make it a point to try my best to not be abusive and use abusive terms.  At the same time I am only human.  And I do get viciously attacked and verbally abused from multiple angles on a consistent basis.  You can't even compare Luc being corrected without the benefit of a Hallmark ghost writer and the ugly and vicious attacks against me.  So perhaps you have your priorities skewed.

MileHigh

TinselKoala

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tinman

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Re: Delayed Lenz or not?... post your explaination!
« Reply #128 on: December 22, 2014, 01:29:58 PM »
The inducing magnet is attracted to the stator and locks at the location known to all as TDC.  This is true of all  presently accepted typologies, where the magnet is moved or coil is moved, and even in the situation now under discussion where an iron slug is moved between a stationary magnet and coil.  This relation leads to the well documented effects and all too familiar wave forms.  What is needed is the exact opposite of this.  What we want is strong repulsion when the magnet structure is perfectly aligned with the stator pole.  This simple change inverts the present situation,placing the point of maximum induced potential at present zero crossing (TDC proper).  This means we will experience  the greatest opposition to change in flux at the point of greatest flux density.  An idea no one here or on any other form I frequent has considered.

This simple modification changes everything, because in this situation the inducing field is in phase (geometrically) with the field which will manifest in the coil, when the coil is shorted. 

I am finding that we are do not have the proper system relations in the machines we build.  We don't understand the forces we wish to command.  Lenz isn't something we can delay, we all know this but keep saying it as if its what we are doing.  With the proper geometric relations we induce three EMF, one prior to TDC one at TDC, and one after TDC.  The induced at TDC is of  much higher amplitude and magnitude than the induced entering and leaving.   The amplitude of the wave is about rate of change, so, that should give one some insight on what relation is desired to get the highest possible induced potential for a given rpm.  In what I am calling "properly designed systems", induced potentials have the appearance of spikes, the induced losses its characteristic sinusoidal nature.


Regards
The induced at TDC is zero. When the PM is at TDC to that of the coil, is when the sine wave is at the zero volt line-the magnetic field is neither increasing or decreasing in strength,and thus no voltage or current is produced. Power is produced as the magnet approaches TDC of the coil,and as it leaves-regardless of wether it is a north field or south field or both alternating.

TinselKoala

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Re: Delayed Lenz or not?... post your explaination!
« Reply #129 on: December 22, 2014, 02:56:48 PM »
The induced at TDC is zero. When the PM is at TDC to that of the coil, is when the sine wave is at the zero volt line-the magnetic field is neither increasing or decreasing in strength,and thus no voltage or current is produced. Power is produced as the magnet approaches TDC of the coil,and as it leaves-regardless of wether it is a north field or south field or both alternating.

As can be clearly seen in my scopeshots in the clip above.

synchro1

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Re: Delayed Lenz or not?... post your explaination!
« Reply #130 on: December 22, 2014, 05:46:46 PM »
@Milehigh,

"This is what I posted to Wings, "I have already discussed that clip and there is nothing there.  If you disagree feel free to make your points."

Why would that make your hair stand up"?

Because this is outright horseshit!

synchro1

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Re: Delayed Lenz or not?... post your explaination!
« Reply #131 on: December 22, 2014, 07:03:06 PM »
The JLN video Milehigh says is nothing is everything! Once again; Magnetizem travels from the rotor magnet through the soft iron core to the shorted output coil. Then in complete compliance with Lenz, Faraday and with no departure from any and all of the related laws, the magnetizem induces an electrical current in the coil windings along with an opposing magnetic field that is "Reflected" back through the core to the rotor magnet.

The reflected magnetizem can either be in advance of TDC or 'DELAYED' and lagging. It's imposible for the reflected field to arrive exactly at TDC. The reflected field can only propel or slow the rotor. This timing is a result of the distance the shorted coil is positioned from the magnet rotor and nothing else. The "Delay" refers to the extra time it takes for magnetizem to travel through the elongated core. Everything else remains unchanged. That's all there is to DLE. Any attempt to include extraneous factors amounts to superstition!

"Delayed Lenz Effect" can be defind as "Magnetic phase lag in the core material". That's it, period!

MileHigh

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Re: Delayed Lenz or not?... post your explaination!
« Reply #132 on: December 22, 2014, 07:09:18 PM »
@Milehigh,

"This is what I posted to Wings, "I have already discussed that clip and there is nothing there.  If you disagree feel free to make your points."

Why would that make your hair stand up"?

Because this is outright horseshit!


Synchro1:

I am going to reproduce my entire posting about the JLN clip below.  You tell all of us why it is outright horseshit.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Luc:

I looked at the JLN clip and I am not impressed.  You have probably heard that water is an excellent analogy for electricity.  The water pressure is the voltage.  The water flow is the current.  A water resistor is just a long thin hose, there is friction between the moving water and the walls of the hose.  A water capacitor is just a big tank of water.  A water coil is just a big coil of hose.

Please see the attached graphic of a simple water wheel.  That's a perfect analogy to a simple pulse motor.  The water flows out, hits the fins of the wheel, the wheel spins at a certain RPM and all the water ends up on the ground.  Just like a pulse motor, there is no useful output from the water wheel.  Both the pulse motor and the water wheel only have one output, heat.

Now, if you make slight adjustments to the water valve the speed of the wheel will change.  If you make slight changes to the angles of the fins on the water wheel the speed of the wheel will change.

Compare that to JLN's experiment.  He makes some adjustments to his setup, and the current consumption will undergo a slight change, or the RPM of the rotor will undergo a slight change.

In both cases, the changes will make slight changes to the power draw, it might go up a bit, it might go down a bit.  Another way to state that is that the impedance of the water wheel will change slightly, and that will affect the power draw.  Likewise, the impedance of the pulse motor will change slightly, and that will affect the power draw.

So what's so remarkable about that?  You know when people make a circuit to power a CFL or a LED lamp, sometimes they put a big current limiting resistor at the battery positive terminal.  If you change the value of that current limiting resistor slightly, then the brightness of your light will change slightly.  Would you say that changing the value of the current limiting resistor is an "advantage?"  Well that essentially is all that you are seeing in that clip.  He is changing the electrical impedance of the pulse motor.  Sometimes the impedance goes up, sometimes it goes down.  BFD.

In this context the shorting or unshorting of the coil is essentially irrelevant.  It just changes the motor impedance and slightly affects how much waste heat is produced by the motor.

That's what's really happening in that clip.  It's like turning the volume up or down on your stereo and claiming an "advantage."

Quoting JLN:

Quote
Harnessing the Delayed Lenz Effect with an experimental Test Bench

He is not harnessing anything.  He is just changing the impedance of the motor.

Quote
Here an interesting experiment about the Delayed Lenz Effect which shows that the normal Lenz effect can be reversed with a special setup.

That's a retarded statement.  Nothing is being reversed, he is just making impedance changes to the setup.

I have said several times before that I am not impressed with JLN, and that clip only serves to reinforce my impression of him.  He is looking at that setup and does not seem to be aware that it has no significance.

MileHigh

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Go ahead Synchro1, we are all waiting to see what you have to say.  - MileHigh

MileHigh

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Re: Delayed Lenz or not?... post your explaination!
« Reply #133 on: December 22, 2014, 07:16:31 PM »
The JLN video Milehigh says is nothing is everything! Once again; Magnetizem travels from the rotor magnet through the soft iron core to the shorted output coil. Then in complete compliance with Lenz, Faraday and with no departure from any and all of the related laws, the magnetizem induces an electrical current in the coil windings along with an opposing magnetic field that is "Reflected" back through the core to the rotor magnet.

The reflected magnetizem can either be in advance of TDC or 'DELAYED' and lagging. It's imposible for the reflected field to arrive exactly at TDC. The reflected field can only propel or slow the rotor. This timing is a result of the distance the shorted coil is positioned from the magnet rotor and nothing else. The "Delay" refers to the extra time it takes for magnetizem to travel through the elongated core. Everything else remains unchanged. That's all there is to DLE. Any attempt to include extraneous factors amounts to superstition!

Please go ahead and produce some nice detailed and annotated timing diagrams that show exactly what you are talking about.  Post them here and we will have a look.  Show all the waveforms relative to TDC, the propulsion, the whole nine yards.  You feel passionately about this so let's see if you are going to advance your case with good quality timing diagrams.  Where the "delayed Lenz effect" is on the timing diagrams has to be clearly indicated and explained so the average person will understand.   Are you up to the challenge?

synchro1

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Re: Delayed Lenz or not?... post your explaination!
« Reply #134 on: December 22, 2014, 07:55:58 PM »
Synchro1:

I am going to reproduce my entire posting about the JLN clip below.  You tell all of us why it is outright horseshit.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Luc:

I looked at the JLN clip and I am not impressed.  You have probably heard that water is an excellent analogy for electricity.  The water pressure is the voltage.  The water flow is the current.  A water resistor is just a long thin hose, there is friction between the moving water and the walls of the hose.  A water capacitor is just a big tank of water.  A water coil is just a big coil of hose.

Please see the attached graphic of a simple water wheel.  That's a perfect analogy to a simple pulse motor.  The water flows out, hits the fins of the wheel, the wheel spins at a certain RPM and all the water ends up on the ground.  Just like a pulse motor, there is no useful output from the water wheel.  Both the pulse motor and the water wheel only have one output, heat.

Now, if you make slight adjustments to the water valve the speed of the wheel will change.  If you make slight changes to the angles of the fins on the water wheel the speed of the wheel will change.

Compare that to JLN's experiment.  He makes some adjustments to his setup, and the current consumption will undergo a slight change, or the RPM of the rotor will undergo a slight change.

In both cases, the changes will make slight changes to the power draw, it might go up a bit, it might go down a bit.  Another way to state that is that the impedance of the water wheel will change slightly, and that will affect the power draw.  Likewise, the impedance of the pulse motor will change slightly, and that will affect the power draw.

So what's so remarkable about that?  You know when people make a circuit to power a CFL or a LED lamp, sometimes they put a big current limiting resistor at the battery positive terminal.  If you change the value of that current limiting resistor slightly, then the brightness of your light will change slightly.  Would you say that changing the value of the current limiting resistor is an "advantage?"  Well that essentially is all that you are seeing in that clip.  He is changing the electrical impedance of the pulse motor.  Sometimes the impedance goes up, sometimes it goes down.  BFD.

In this context the shorting or unshorting of the coil is essentially irrelevant.  It just changes the motor impedance and slightly affects how much waste heat is produced by the motor.

That's what's really happening in that clip.  It's like turning the volume up or down on your stereo and claiming an "advantage."

Quoting JLN:

He is not harnessing anything.  He is just changing the impedance of the motor.

That's a retarded statement.  Nothing is being reversed, he is just making impedance changes to the setup.

I have said several times before that I am not impressed with JLN, and that clip only serves to reinforce my impression of him.  He is looking at that setup and does not seem to be aware that it has no significance.

MileHigh

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Go ahead Synchro1, we are all waiting to see what you have to say.  - MileHigh

This is complete horsehit! You're using a jet of wáter that you compare to voltage you mention current and coil impedence when DLE has nothing at all to do with electriity and is strictly a result of 'MAGNETIZEM'. Both you and MarkE are DUMBER THEN PIGSHIT