Author Topic: Delayed Lenz or not?... post your explaination! (Read 78214 times)

minnie · « **Reply #30 on:** December 17, 2014, 10:04:05 PM »

Tinman,
I'd think speed of magnetic field in a vacuum and speed of light would be about the
same. I've often wondered about the sun and Curie temperatures and how that works.
John.

MileHigh · « **Reply #31 on:** December 17, 2014, 11:12:18 PM »

Quote from: gotoluc on December 17, 2014, 08:36:11 PM

The Dremel is connected to a Kill-Watt power meter at all time to verify its power consumption.
The power meter has zero change when the coil is connected to the 1 and 12.5 Ohm load. There may be a half Watt increase (hard to tell) when the coil is connected to the 25 Ohm load but it's delivering 3.2 Watts.
So the coil connected to the 25 Ohm load delivers 2.7 Watts output at no power cost to the prime mover.
and the coil connected to the 12.5 Ohm load delivers 2 Watts output at no power cost to the prime mover.

This is what I'm interested in and I think others should also be.
Keep in mind my test device is a toy at best but it's enough to demonstrate a value and I think it warrants more study.
I've said and tested this in the past that a larger scale device will produce much more power with the same benefits.

Luc

Sorry Luc, but you are leading yourself down a garden path. You know there is Lenz drag and you know the motor has to put out power to overcome that Lenz drag. The Kill-a-Watt meter is not designed to detect small changes in power. It's a device to use in the home to measure the power draw of appliances and other things like TVs, etc.

If you can mount the same magnet on a small 5-volt or 12-volt DC motor then you can easily prove this to yourself. I assume that you still have the big low-pass filter device that Poynt99 helped you make. I also assume that you have your fancy volt meter with six digits of precision after the decimal point. All that you have do is connect your battery or power supply to the motor with your low-pass filter device in between. Then connect your fancy volt meter across the current sensing resistor in your low-pass filter device and you will see the current draw by the small DC motor increase when the generator coil is driving a load resistor as clear as a bell.

MileHigh

MileHigh · « **Reply #32 on:** December 17, 2014, 11:20:58 PM »

Synchro1:

I may try to look at the Naudin tests later. However, I have mentioned in the past that I am not too impressed by him.

Tinman:

I will let you look that up. Try searching on "speed of propagation of a magnetic field" or "electromagnetics 101" or something like that. The speed of EM waves is determined by the impedance of the medium based on the permeability and permittivity. I am assuming the same applies to a "DC" magnetic field. The subject matter of the speed of propagation of DC electric and magnetic fields does not crop up too much but I am sure you will find it somewhere.

MileHigh

shylo · « **Reply #33 on:** December 17, 2014, 11:26:58 PM »

Hi All, When you energize a coreless drive coil that is pushing a permanent magnetic rotor, Does Lenz show up at the exact time as power on or does it manifest a few micro-seconds afterwards? I think it is the latter.
When you pass a magnet past a coreless gen coil that is loaded , Does lenz happen simutainously or does it lag?
I think it lags but not by much , you have to switch at just the right time.
Drive the wheel ,collect, drive , collect ...
artv

synchro1 · « **Reply #34 on:** December 17, 2014, 11:48:26 PM »

Quote from: MileHigh on December 17, 2014, 11:20:58 PM

Synchro1:

I may try to look at the Naudin tests later. However, I have mentioned in the past that I am not too impressed by him.

Tinman:

I will let you look that up. Try searching on "speed of propagation of a magnetic field" or "electromagnetics 101" or something like that. The speed of EM waves is determined by the impedance of the medium based on the permeability and permittivity. I am assuming the same applies to a "DC" magnetic field. The subject matter of the speed of propagation of DC electric and magnetic fields does not crop up too much but I am sure you will find it somewhere.

MileHigh

I can assure you that JLN is even more un-impressed by you!

MileHigh · « **Reply #35 on:** December 18, 2014, 12:51:12 AM »

Quote from: synchro1 on December 17, 2014, 11:48:26 PM

I can assure you that JLN is even more un-impressed by you!

That's just trash-talk bullshit from you. A 50-year-old man acting like some harassing retarded jackass.

This is a thread that Synchro1 is not going to ruin. My suggestion is to let him know in no uncertain terms that we don't want that kind of trash behaviour ruining this thread.

synchro1 · « **Reply #36 on:** December 18, 2014, 01:47:20 AM »

@Milehigh,

Take a look at this you SCHWEINEHUND:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YUoyuiQTrRA#t=292

tinman · « **Reply #37 on:** December 18, 2014, 02:27:16 AM »

Quote from: MileHigh on December 18, 2014, 12:51:12 AM

That's just trash-talk bullshit from you. A 50-year-old man acting like some harassing retarded jackass.

This is a thread that Synchro1 is not going to ruin. My suggestion is to let him know in no uncertain terms that we don't want that kind of trash behaviour ruining this thread.

I agree MH
Just 1tthread without the bullshit would be great.

Brad

synchro1 · « **Reply #38 on:** December 18, 2014, 02:47:49 AM »

@Tinman,

You blokes are the bullshit! I'm running a thread in tandem with this one entitled "Magnet coil cores, demagnetization power and Lenz delay". The topic is self acceleration. JLN would achieve additional acceleration after his initial speed up if he repositioned his shorted output coil in a Little more closely toward the spinning rotor. Furthermore, this kind of repositioning advacement has an exponential effect on the acceleration.

synchro1 · « **Reply #39 on:** December 18, 2014, 02:58:00 AM »

Quote from: MileHigh on December 18, 2014, 12:51:12 AM

That's just trash-talk bullshit from you. A 50-year-old man acting like some harassing retarded jackass.

This is a thread that Synchro1 is not going to ruin. My suggestion is to let him know in no uncertain terms that we don't want that kind of trash behaviour ruining this thread.

Bullshit back on you stinking two faced double standared hypocryte. You're the trash talker with a reverse blame trip. Same baboon antic. That's because you don't know what the hell you're talking about. You're jut a know it all fraud!

MileHigh · « **Reply #40 on:** December 18, 2014, 03:09:15 AM »

You are a 50-year-old man with severe psychological problems. We are asking you to act in a civil fashion on this thread and to stop disrupting it right now.

Here is a chance for you to redeem some face: Please explain in your own words what is going on in the JLN clip.

gotoluc · « **Reply #41 on:** December 18, 2014, 05:07:40 AM »

Quote from: MileHigh on December 17, 2014, 11:12:18 PM

Sorry Luc, but you are leading yourself down a garden path. You know there is Lenz drag and you know the motor has to put out power to overcome that Lenz drag. The Kill-a-Watt meter is not designed to detect small changes in power. It's a device to use in the home to measure the power draw of appliances and other things like TVs, etc.

If you can mount the same magnet on a small 5-volt or 12-volt DC motor then you can easily prove this to yourself. I assume that you still have the big low-pass filter device that Poynt99 helped you make. I also assume that you have your fancy volt meter with six digits of precision after the decimal point. All that you have do is connect your battery or power supply to the motor with your low-pass filter device in between. Then connect your fancy volt meter across the current sensing resistor in your low-pass filter device and you will see the current draw by the small DC motor increase when the generator coil is driving a load resistor as clear as a bell.

MileHigh

I've been out of the country for some time and don't have my equipment other than my USB scope and Inductance meter.
I can't use any motor as I'm using a single magnet and the effect needs the frequency to be in a certain range (200Hz or more), that's why I'm using the Dremel as it can go up to 35,000 RPM.
I know the Kill-a- Watt meter is not the ideal but it give a good ballpark. It has 0.0 decimal on the Watt reading and reads PF, so it should detect a half Watt change.
I'm also trying to get my hands on a variac and rectify to DC so we can get a more accurate power analysis.

Stay tuned

Luc

MarkE · « **Reply #42 on:** December 18, 2014, 05:11:48 AM »

Quote from: shylo on December 17, 2014, 11:26:58 PM

Hi All, When you energize a coreless drive coil that is pushing a permanent magnetic rotor, Does Lenz show up at the exact time as power on or does it manifest a few micro-seconds afterwards? I think it is the latter.
When you pass a magnet past a coreless gen coil that is loaded , Does lenz happen simutainously or does it lag?
I think it lags but not by much , you have to switch at just the right time.
Drive the wheel ,collect, drive , collect ...
artv

The E/M field propagates at c/(uR*eR)^0.5. In air: uR and eR are essentially 1.0. For something that is a cm away or less the propagation delay is under 35ps.

MileHigh · « **Reply #43 on:** December 18, 2014, 02:00:03 PM »

Cross-posting from another thread because this is where it actually should be:

Part 1 of 2:

Quote from: tinman on December 16, 2014, 04:41:47 PM

I am well aware that the slow speed of the collapsing magnetic field has nothing to do with the propagation speed of the magnetic field. My point there was(think) speed up under load . Now what would happen to the rotor of a pulse motor if the magnetic field from the inductor was to remain longer ?-->yes,thats right,more push or pull on the rotors magnets for a longer period of time-->speed up under load

Now-the last quote of yours above.
This was a question i was asking TJ(and anyone else into pulsed inductor systems),it wasnt a question i was asking for my self. I am well aware that the magnetic field remains the same when the field is collapsing around the inductor when the inductors power supply is abruptly interupted. So no-no time travel there MH.

I must ask MH,do you believe that the delay of the lenz force is from extensive reserch you your self have done,or is it just because of what others tell you,or you have read in book's?. If the lenz force is created from current flowing through a generator coil(we are using a PM generator here as an example),and we can offset that current to the voltage across that generator coil,why then is the lenz force also not offset?.If the current is offset to the voltage,then so to is the lenz force offset to the voltage.

I would be more than happy to throw together a simple generator and show you lenz delay.First we could look at the power draw of the prime mover when loading the generator coil itself,and then we could look at the power draw of the prime mover with the lenz delay circuit in place.

Tinman, there is some ranting in this posting. It's specifically directed at you, it's simply a generic rant about the usual issues around being a newbie playing with electronics.

I assume that you read the full new thread about the alleged "delayed Lenz effect" set up by Gotoluc.

There is no such thing as "speed up under load." That has been covered many times already.

Quote

Now what would happen to the rotor of a pulse motor if the magnetic field from the inductor was to remain longer ?-->yes,thats right,more push or pull on the rotors magnets for a longer period of time-->speed up under load

If you have an inductor in place of the load resistor, the current waveform will change but big deal. It will not cause "speed up under load." You are just talking now with wishful thinking. If you want to be serious you would have to do a setup and with your scope and create a timing diagram for what is happening including indicating when there is push or pull on the rotor on the timing diagram. That is what electronics is all about - looking at timing diagrams and analysing and understanding them. Without doing that your comments are all "just talk."

Quote

This was a question i was asking TJ(and anyone else into pulsed inductor systems),it wasnt a question i was asking for my self. I am well aware that the magnetic field remains the same when the field is collapsing around the inductor when the inductors power supply is abruptly interupted. So no-no time travel there MH.

Then why didn't you just state it? I don't believe in "alternative" political correctness just like I don't believe in "standard" political correctness. When it comes to electronics the truth is there right in front of your nose.

Quote

I must ask MH,do you believe that the delay of the lenz force is from extensive reserch you your self have done,or is it just because of what others tell you,or you have read in book's?. If the lenz force is created from current flowing through a generator coil(we are using a PM generator here as an example),and we can offset that current to the voltage across that generator coil,why then is the lenz force also not offset?.If the current is offset to the voltage,then so to is the lenz force offset to the voltage.

I am just going to repeat again that the real answer for someone that needs to investigate this for themselves is to construct a timing diagram and then analyse and understand it. Two hours of work on the bench will be worth more than two years and thousands of incorrect posts and hundreds of incorrect replications of the "delayed Lenz effect."

Continued in part 2...

MileHigh · « **Reply #44 on:** December 18, 2014, 02:00:53 PM »

Part 2 of 2:

Quote

If the lenz force is created from current flowing through a generator coil(we are using a PM generator here as an example),and we can offset that current to the voltage across that generator coil,why then is the lenz force also not offset?.

You can take your "just words" and go on a bench and do an experiment where you do the full timing and analysis of that timing diagram and then come back and look at your words to see if they are "just words" or if they are valid and have substance. Right now as far as I am concerned you are just repeating a "popular belief" that has infested the free energy forums for way too long. I don't accept this and instead of blindly believing something the better thing to do is roll up your shirtsleeves and see if all of this "delayed Lenz" talk has any merit or if it is complete BS.

Did you see on Luc's new thread how the explanation for what was taking place was derived from looking at the actual data that he got from doing some experiments?

Quote

I must ask MH,do you believe that the delay of the lenz force is from extensive reserch you your self have done,or is it just because of what others tell you,or you have read in book's?

Tinman, the problem is not that I don't do experiments, the problem is that you guys either don't do experiments or you do experiments but you don't have the knowledge or experience to correctly understand what you are looking at. Somebody makes a totally wrong conclusion and everybody believes them and agrees with them. Part of the problem is that many of you are afraid to disagree with each other. The other problem is that a newbie on a bench should be making timing diagrams for their circuits and then actually undertaking to understand what is going on. How often do you see someone construct a timing diagram?

Quote

I would be more than happy to throw together a simple generator and show you lenz delay.First we could look at the power draw of the prime mover when loading the generator coil itself,and then we could look at the power draw of the prime mover with the lenz delay circuit in place.

I can envision this: You do a pulse motor/generator and confirm the "delayed Lenz effect" and make your power measurements, etc. But the job will not be done. Go the next step and construct a timing diagram and understand the timing diagram. That's the real deal and almost nobody ever does it.

It's simply ridiculous to say, "this is the delayed Lenz effect." Do you understand where I am coming from? The term "delayed Lenz effect" does not even exist in the real world of electronics and motors.

I have no doubt that you could show me the "delayed Lenz effect" but the real issue is what are you really looking at? The challenge for you after you do your tests is to put together one or two paragraphs of text that describe what you are observing in the real language of electronics and not this fake imaginary language like "delayed Lenz effect." There is an explanation for what you might be observing and it is guaranteed to be 100% conventional and 100% explainable using 100% standard electronics terms.

And there are no special or "magical" benefits to the "delayed Lanz effect." It's all just REAL, and the challenge for every experimenter in alternative energy is to master the basics of electronics if you want to play with electronics. You think that you can do something that is "amazing" and "out of the ordinary?" If so, prove to yourself that you really and truly know what you are doing first.

MileHigh

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Author Topic: Delayed Lenz or not?... post your explaination! (Read 78214 times)

minnie

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MileHigh

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shylo

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synchro1

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tinman

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MarkE

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