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Author Topic: Delayed Lenz or not?... post your explaination!  (Read 71039 times)

Newton II

• Sr. Member
• Posts: 309
Re: Delayed Lenz or not?... post your explaination!
« Reply #60 on: December 19, 2014, 03:27:18 AM »

MarkE

• Hero Member
• Posts: 6830
Re: Delayed Lenz or not?... post your explaination!
« Reply #61 on: December 19, 2014, 04:32:34 AM »
Without any steel in the system , Do the induced fields disappear the instant power is cut?
When the gen coil is a max output and you dump it into a drive coil, the gen coil now creates an opposite pole ?
But when you cut power to the drive coil does it create an opposite pole?
I know steel cores and rotors give much better results , but that is the achilies heel.
IMHO artv
No, but they don't last very long.  How long they last depends on how permeable the conductors are and how conductive they are.  By asking about a case where there is no steel, I take it you mean no material more permeable than air.  In that case the decay depends on how good a conductor you have.  In a superconductor there would be no decay.

Induced voltage always, always, always conforms to Lenz' Law.  The current that results can be out of phase which then allows the load to store and return some of the energy transferred.  Any change in the magnetic field density, increasing or decreasing is opposed by the image current.

MarkE

• Hero Member
• Posts: 6830
Re: Delayed Lenz or not?... post your explaination!
« Reply #62 on: December 19, 2014, 04:41:14 AM »

The key slide is slide #32.  Beyond that he offers a lot of speculation that he has not confirmed more than seven months later.  Why?  See slide #32.

tinman

• Hero Member
• Posts: 5242
Re: Delayed Lenz or not?... post your explaination!
« Reply #63 on: December 19, 2014, 12:12:03 PM »
Part 2 of 2:

You can take your "just words" and go on a bench and do an experiment where you do the full timing and analysis of that timing diagram and then come back and look at your words to see if they are "just words" or if they are valid and have substance.  Right now as far as I am concerned you are just repeating a "popular belief" that has infested the free energy forums for way too long.  I don't accept this and instead of blindly believing something the better thing to do is roll up your shirtsleeves and see if all of this "delayed Lenz" talk has any merit or if it is complete BS.

Did you see on Luc's new thread how the explanation for what was taking place was derived from looking at the actual data that he got from doing some experiments?

Tinman, the problem is not that I don't do experiments, the problem is that you guys either don't do experiments or you do experiments but you don't have the knowledge or experience to correctly understand what you are looking at.  Somebody makes a totally wrong conclusion and everybody believes them and agrees with them.  Part of the problem is that many of you are afraid to disagree with each other.  The other problem is that a newbie on a bench should be making timing diagrams for their circuits and then actually undertaking to understand what is going on.  How often do you see someone construct a timing diagram?

I can envision this:  You do a pulse motor/generator and confirm the "delayed Lenz effect" and make your power measurements, etc.  But the job will not be done.  Go the next step and construct a timing diagram and understand the timing diagram.  That's the real deal and almost nobody ever does it.

It's simply ridiculous to say, "this is the delayed Lenz effect."  Do you understand where I am coming from?  The term "delayed Lenz effect" does not even exist in the real world of electronics and motors.

I have no doubt that you could show me the "delayed Lenz effect" but the real issue is what are you really looking at?  The challenge for you after you do your tests is to put together one or two paragraphs of text that describe what you are observing in the real language of electronics and not this fake imaginary language like "delayed Lenz effect."  There is an explanation for what you might be observing and it is guaranteed to be 100% conventional and 100% explainable using 100% standard electronics terms.

And there are no special or "magical" benefits to the "delayed Lanz effect."   It's all just REAL, and the challenge for every experimenter in alternative energy is to master the basics of electronics if you want to play with electronics.  You think that you can do something that is "amazing" and "out of the ordinary?"  If so, prove to yourself that you really and truly know what you are doing first.

MileHigh
Are you saying i dont do experiment's?. Are you saying i have no bench time?. Are you saying i am still unable to interpret what i see?.
Well it's the weekend here now,and it's time to build. Soon it will be your time to tell me what you see. But straight of the bat,there is a lenz force delay,as a magnetic field dose have a speed limit-even if it is the speed of light. So how hard is it to decrease the reaction time of the CEMF-is it in any way possable to delay that CEMF that acts against our generators rotor?. Well we shall see. I will make this setup as simple as i can. I will be using an air core coil-no core material except air.Goodbye eddy current losess,and any thing else that causes drag on the rotor.

Wouldnt it be a hoot if we could arange magnets on the rotor so that they were actually attracted to the CEMF field. Now how would you manage to flip poles like that without looseing the generator effect?.

Has any one here driven a stepper motor to very high RPM and checked out what happens when you load the output. Start with about 10 000 rpm-->give it a shot guys.

MarkE

• Hero Member
• Posts: 6830
Re: Delayed Lenz or not?... post your explaination!
« Reply #64 on: December 19, 2014, 12:39:13 PM »
The trouble is that no matter what one does to manipulate an induction load, the net result spans between:  storing energy temporarily and giving almost all of that energy back on a cycle by cycle bases, or dissipating / conveying all of the induced energy.  If you want energy to go through the thing you are subjecting to a changing magnetic field, such as:  an intentional motor, then offsetting the phase whether by a passive L-C network or construction of a transmission line stores some but never all of the energy induced and if arranged just right will give almost all of it which can later be delivered back to the source.  On a cycle by cycle basis it would almost be as though the induction load did not exist.  With respect to seeing that this is what is going on, good quality measurements can be very helpful.

minnie

• Hero Member
• Posts: 1244
Re: Delayed Lenz or not?... post your explaination!
« Reply #65 on: December 19, 2014, 03:31:01 PM »

Lenz delay doesn't make any sense. Someone needs to show an example of
the prediction made by Lenz's law not doing what is expected of it. The late
after effects are something else!
John.

MarkE

• Hero Member
• Posts: 6830
Re: Delayed Lenz or not?... post your explaination!
« Reply #66 on: December 19, 2014, 04:42:13 PM »

Lenz delay doesn't make any sense. Someone needs to show an example of
the prediction made by Lenz's law not doing what is expected of it. The late
after effects are something else!
John.
Lenz' Law is being confused for Faraday's Law of Induction.  And current is being confused for voltage.  Cutting through that, there is a legitimate observation that current induced into a circuit can be out of phase with the inducing magnetic field.  The problem is that the delay amounts to storing energy from the source and returning some of that energy to the source instead of to the load.

MileHigh

• Hero Member
• Posts: 7600
Re: Delayed Lenz or not?... post your explaination!
« Reply #67 on: December 19, 2014, 04:52:59 PM »
Tinman:

In the first half of my posting I stated that my comments were geneic and not directed at anyone in particular.

Mark often makes great succinct technical arguments and makes graphics and I thank him for that.  Here is my version of a short summary of the issues:

1.  With a resistive load on the generator coil, there is no Lenz delay, it's simply impossible.

2.  With a capacitive or inductive reactive load then there is a Lenz drag during the charging phase and then a push when the reactive load discharges its stored energy for a net gain of zero (ignoring losses.)

3.  What has only been mentioned a few times is the "fake out" Lenz delay.  This is when the generator coil and load together dissipate less power when you are making the Lenz delay test as compared to the original configuration.  Less power dissipated by the generator coil + load equals a higher RPM for the rotor.  This is a no-brainer and many beginning experimenters simply failed to make these measurements.

4.  Changes to the mechanical and electrical configuration of the setup when doing a Lenz delay test can inadvertently change the overall average electrical impedance of the pulse motor and where the power flows in the system.  If the impedance goes down the current draw from the power supply will increase and most likely the rotor will speed up.  If the impedance goes up the current draw from the power supply will decrease and most likely the rotor will slow down.  That's what's taking place in the JLN clip that was linked to.  That is another "fake out" and you have to be on your toes to not hoodwink yourself.

When it comes to #4, you might make a change and the rotor speed will in increase by just a few percent.  Something like simply lowering the stresses on the main bearing while rotating at high RPM could cause an effect like this.

What's been happening over the past two years is that many amateur experimenters when working with their pulse motors will say "delayed Lenz effect" when they observe a speed up in the RPM for whatever reason.  They don't actually investigate the real reasons, they just use the blanket term "delayed Lenz effect" when they see a speed up and they are convinced that they have "replicated the effect."

As a generic shout out, guys and gals, you have to do better than this.  Working an investigation together might help where people encourage each other to get the right answers.  You have to think "outside of the box" and in this context thinking "outside of the box" actually means that you do a proper investigation using standard electronics principles and measurement techniques.  You all can do better if you work together and encourage each other to improve your craft.

MileHigh

synchro1

• Hero Member
• Posts: 4775
Re: Delayed Lenz or not?... post your explaination!
« Reply #68 on: December 19, 2014, 08:06:33 PM »
The explanation of induced voltage and current, and the effects of phase shift between the induced voltage and current that have been labeled with the misnomer "Lenz delay" are quite independent of the implementation specifics.  One post back you asked about ferrite, now you are on about laminations and solid iron.  The physics is independent of the materials.  Properties of any particular material only set coefficients.

“ When ferromagnetic materials are used in applications like an iron-core solenoid, the relative permeability gives you an idea of the kind of multiplication of the applied magnetic field that can be achieved by having the ferromagnetic core present. So for an ordinary iron core you might expect a magnification of about 200 compared to the magnetic field produced by the solenoid current with just an air core. This statement has exceptions and limits, since you do reach a saturation magnetization of the iron core quickly, as illustrated in the discussion of hysteresis".

tinman

• Hero Member
• Posts: 5242
Re: Delayed Lenz or not?... post your explaination!
« Reply #69 on: December 20, 2014, 12:43:09 AM »
Tinman:

In the first half of my posting I stated that my comments were geneic and not directed at anyone in particular.

Mark often makes great succinct technical arguments and makes graphics and I thank him for that.  Here is my version of a short summary of the issues:

1.  With a resistive load on the generator coil, there is no Lenz delay, it's simply impossible.

2.  With a capacitive or inductive reactive load then there is a Lenz drag during the charging phase and then a push when the reactive load discharges its stored energy for a net gain of zero (ignoring losses.)

3.  What has only been mentioned a few times is the "fake out" Lenz delay.  This is when the generator coil and load together dissipate less power when you are making the Lenz delay test as compared to the original configuration.  Less power dissipated by the generator coil + load equals a higher RPM for the rotor.  This is a no-brainer and many beginning experimenters simply failed to make these measurements.

4.  Changes to the mechanical and electrical configuration of the setup when doing a Lenz delay test can inadvertently change the overall average electrical impedance of the pulse motor and where the power flows in the system.  If the impedance goes down the current draw from the power supply will increase and most likely the rotor will speed up.  If the impedance goes up the current draw from the power supply will decrease and most likely the rotor will slow down.  That's what's taking place in the JLN clip that was linked to.  That is another "fake out" and you have to be on your toes to not hoodwink yourself.

When it comes to #4, you might make a change and the rotor speed will in increase by just a few percent.  Something like simply lowering the stresses on the main bearing while rotating at high RPM could cause an effect like this.

What's been happening over the past two years is that many amateur experimenters when working with their pulse motors will say "delayed Lenz effect" when they observe a speed up in the RPM for whatever reason.  They don't actually investigate the real reasons, they just use the blanket term "delayed Lenz effect" when they see a speed up and they are convinced that they have "replicated the effect."

As a generic shout out, guys and gals, you have to do better than this.  Working an investigation together might help where people encourage each other to get the right answers.  You have to think "outside of the box" and in this context thinking "outside of the box" actually means that you do a proper investigation using standard electronics principles and measurement techniques.  You all can do better if you work together and encourage each other to improve your craft.

MileHigh
Not sure how the pulse motor side of things came to be in this !!lenz delay!! thread,as it is more directed at a generator or transformer setup.

Like i said,there is a delay,and always has been. It's just that the delay is that small it's not worth noteing. We can look at a pulsed inductors magnetic field like dropping a stone into a pond. We send a pulse of power to the inductor,and a wave(magnetic wave) radiates out from that inductor-just like a wave of water radiates out from the point in the pond where the stone was dropped.The produced wave from the inductor takes time to get to the secondary(generator) coil-just like it takes time for the wave in the water to reach the bank of the pond.That magnetic wave first creates a voltage across that secondary coil,and then followed by current through that coil. Once current starts to build,the generator coil will build a magnetic field that apposes that which created it-but it IS slightly out of phase(delayed) with the field that created it. the greater the distance between the two,the greater the delay.Current flow is what creates and determonds the magnetic field in an inductor-not voltage,and both distance and frequency determonds as to how great the delay between the transmitter and reciever is.

Have you ever been down the beach and watched the wave's roll in?. You get a wave roll up the beach,then roll back down into the ocean. Some times this wave thats rolling back out into the ocean meets the next wave rolling in,and you get a large peak when they meet. But some times you see the wave that is rolling out pass straight through the wave thats rolling in,and both waves continue on in the direction they were flowing-seemingly uninterupted.

MileHigh

• Hero Member
• Posts: 7600
Re: Delayed Lenz or not?... post your explaination!
« Reply #70 on: December 20, 2014, 12:53:39 AM »
You are on the wrong track Tinman.  The speed of light or magnetic field propagation speed does not affect the operation of a transformer or pulse motor at the frequencies we are normally dealing with.  It's just a few picoseconds for the magnetic field propagation.

Here is a fun factoid:

Quote
The speed of light is 300 million meters per second.  Therefore light crosses one meter in about 1/300,000,000th of a second, which is 3ns -- or roughly 1ns per foot.

A modern quad-core CPU running at 3GHz, assuming each core is swallowing two instructions per cycle, processes 8 instructions every 0.33ns.

It is processing a couple of dozen instructions in the time it takes the light to get from your monitor to your eye.

Is it just me, or is that kind of cool?

(it also hints that it wont be long before engineers are running up against the speed of light in all sorts of places)

http://arstechnica.com/civis/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=122654

MileHigh

synchro1

• Hero Member
• Posts: 4775
Re: Delayed Lenz or not?... post your explaination!
« Reply #71 on: December 20, 2014, 02:09:06 AM »
Magnet wave traveling through ferrite core:

MarkE

• Hero Member
• Posts: 6830
Re: Delayed Lenz or not?... post your explaination!
« Reply #72 on: December 20, 2014, 02:14:03 AM »
The relative permeability is just a coefficient.  It does not change the physics.

MarkE

• Hero Member
• Posts: 6830
Re: Delayed Lenz or not?... post your explaination!
« Reply #73 on: December 20, 2014, 02:18:32 AM »
Magnet wave traveling through ferrite core:
Round and round we go.  The very effects that are used to claim "delayed Lenz" effect are in fact the result of Faraday induction acting immediately and in the orientation predicted by Lenz' law.

synchro1

• Hero Member
• Posts: 4775
Re: Delayed Lenz or not?... post your explaination!
« Reply #74 on: December 20, 2014, 02:30:45 AM »
@MarkE,

Everything you guys say is just vapid meaningless bullcrap.