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### Author Topic: Delayed Lenz or not?... post your explaination!  (Read 71082 times)

#### MileHigh

• Hero Member
• Posts: 7600
##### Re: Delayed Lenz or not?... post your explaination!
« Reply #15 on: December 17, 2014, 04:20:31 AM »
Luc:

This is a very important point and it almost slipped through the cracks:

Quote
As you raise the Resistance, at a certain value it will start to affect the prime mover since the phase delay starts to reduce.

This is an incorrect statement.  It's actually a classic example of leading yourselves down a garden path and people should not start repeating this blindly.

As you increase the resistance the power being dissipated inside the coil and in the load resistance increases.  At some point you will reach the maximum power, and then after that it will start to go down as the resistance increases.

The reason the prime mover slows down is because the increased total dissipated power is causing increasing Lenz drag on the prime mover.  The phase delay change has nothing directly to do with this.  The only things that come into play are how much power the prime mover can output at a given RPM and the Lenz drag at a given RPM.  And we know the Lenz drag is a function of the value of the load resistor.

The "shocker" here is that you are using a Dremel drill as the prime mover, and it uses a normal motor that will respond to a mechanical load by increasing it's torque and corresponding power output.  So you may be surprised that your load resistors are getting hot.  That's in contrast to your typical anaemic pulse motor that has almost no capability to increase its power output under load.

MileHigh

#### MileHigh

• Hero Member
• Posts: 7600
##### Re: Delayed Lenz or not?... post your explaination!
« Reply #16 on: December 17, 2014, 04:57:59 AM »
Humm ... why do you keep writing unknown Inductance when I have already posted the DC Resistance and Inductance value?
http://overunity.com/15289/delayed-lenz-or-not-post-your-explaination/msg427939/#msg427939

With ideal parameters,  larger wire coil, core and magnet it could easily do 10X the power output.
There's an ideal resistance value depending on the above geometry that outputs max Watts out even though it may take a little power from the prime mover, example 25 Watts. So a more ideal coil could output 100 Watts, so if you deduct the 25 watts it took from your prime mover you are still left with 75 Watts extra. NO?
So, why not develop and use this effect to make generators more efficient?

Luc

It's because the measured inductance of your generator coil and the unknown inductance are different things.  Some of the unknown inductance may be coming from the generator coil.

The generator coil is responding to the spinning magnet attached to the prime mover.  That turns the generator coil into an EMF source.  This is not the inductance and it does not act like an inductance.  It's an AC voltage source, a.k.a. an EMF source.  As an AC voltage source, it does not have the property of inductance.

Your power analysis is completely wrong.  You have to look at the power as it flows.  The AC mains power goes into the motor.  The motor can output XX watts of mechanical power.  Let's say that's 85 watts.  There is a coupling factor into the generator.  So the generator can get a max of say 80 watts of power.  Therefore, under a best case scenario, the coil resistance plus the load resistance can dissipate a maximum of 80 watts.  That's it - you are up against a wall.   You can try the most ideal coil configuration possible and you are up against a wall of 80 watts with a 0.94 coupling factor.  There is no going further than that.  You can change the mechanical setup until you are blue in the face and increase the coupling factor so that it is very close to one and then your maximum power dissipated in the two resistances will be just less than 85 watts.

So this is a fundamental misunderstanding and you should study this.  Power is always flowing from Point A to Point B to Point C.  You can not magically invent power out of thin air by changing the coil configuration.

MileHigh

#### gotoluc

• elite_member
• Hero Member
• Posts: 3096
##### Re: Delayed Lenz or not?... post your explaination!
« Reply #17 on: December 17, 2014, 06:25:29 AM »
It's because the measured inductance of your generator coil and the unknown inductance are different things.  Some of the unknown inductance may be coming from the generator coil.

The generator coil is responding to the spinning magnet attached to the prime mover.  That turns the generator coil into an EMF source.  This is not the inductance and it does not act like an inductance.  It's an AC voltage source, a.k.a. an EMF source.  As an AC voltage source, it does not have the property of inductance.

Your power analysis is completely wrong.  You have to look at the power as it flows.  The AC mains power goes into the motor.  The motor can output XX watts of mechanical energy.  Let's say that's 85 watts.  There is a coupling factor into the generator.  So the generator can get a max of say 80 watts of power.  Therefore, under a best case scenario, the coil resistance plus the load resistance can dissipate a maximum of 80 watts.  That's it - you are up against a wall.   You can try the most ideal coil configuration possible and you are up against a wall of 80 watts with a 0.94 coupling factor.  There is no going further than that.  You can change the mechanical setup until you are blue in the face and increase the coupling factor so that it is very close to one and then your maximum power dissipated in the two resistances will be just less than 85 watts.

So this is a fundamental misunderstanding and you should study this.  Power is always flowing from Point A to Point B to Point C.  You can not magically invent power out of thin air by changing the coil configuration.

MileHigh

I wasn't suggesting to use this little 60 Watt dremel motor as a prime mover for a larger 100 Watts version. I'm not that stupid!  give me a little more credit.
I would appreciate you answering my question and not brush it off with "Your power analysis is completely wrong"

I'll give a realistic test scenario.

Lets say we have a generator turning under no load. The prime mover needs 100 Watts just to turn the magnet rotor with friction and cores losses.
That 100 Watts you never get back.
Now we load the generator and get 50 Watts out. The prime mover will consume around 160 Watts in total if the generator is 80% efficient.

Lets take the same generator scenario but we use a coil that does current delay and can output 50 Watts. However, lets say it's not the ideal design and actually loads the prime mover by 25 Watts when delivering 50 Watts. So now 125 Watts is our total input.

It's understood in both cases we cannot recover the 100 Watts to turn the generator, so lets just look at the extra Watts the prime mover needs to deliver the 50 Watts.

Scenario A  60 Watts needed
Scenario B  25 Watts needed

Scenario B is close to 60% less the A to deliver 50 Watts

Which generator would you want?

Luc

#### MarkE

• Hero Member
• Posts: 6830
##### Re: Delayed Lenz or not?... post your explaination!
« Reply #18 on: December 17, 2014, 06:33:12 AM »
I want the one that is at least 85% efficient as mid 90%'s are common.  Incremental efficiency improvements are a good thing.  They do not suggest free energy or that over unity is possible.

#### gotoluc

• elite_member
• Hero Member
• Posts: 3096
##### Re: Delayed Lenz or not?... post your explaination!
« Reply #19 on: December 17, 2014, 06:58:23 AM »
Put the efficiency to a 100% if you want ... you still cannot beat the above

BTW, just noticed that post put you at exactly 4000 posts... maybe this is a sign of some kind

#### MarkE

• Hero Member
• Posts: 6830
##### Re: Delayed Lenz or not?... post your explaination!
« Reply #20 on: December 17, 2014, 09:11:32 AM »
Put the efficiency to a 100% if you want ... you still cannot beat the above

BTW, just noticed that post put you at exactly 4000 posts... maybe this is a sign of some kind
If I could find a 100% efficient machine such as some kind of motor or generator that would be a little bit better than the high 90% range that actually exist.  It's the vertical wall at 100% that seems insurmountable.

#### minnie

• Hero Member
• Posts: 1244
##### Re: Delayed Lenz or not?... post your explaination!
« Reply #21 on: December 17, 2014, 10:55:24 AM »

Luc or anyone,
we all know the rules, my question is: How can we delay something
that MUST have happened?
John.

#### MileHigh

• Hero Member
• Posts: 7600
##### Re: Delayed Lenz or not?... post your explaination!
« Reply #22 on: December 17, 2014, 12:34:21 PM »
Luc:

Quote
I wasn't suggesting to use this little 60 Watt dremel motor as a prime mover for a larger 100 Watts version. I'm not that stupid!  (http://overunity.com/Smileys/default/rolleyes.gif) give me a little more credit.
I would appreciate you answering my question and not brush it off with "Your power analysis is completely wrong"

I simply did not understand your prose.  In both of your explanations you don't mention the requirement for the prime mover to supply more mechanical power.  The burden is on you to express yourself properly if you want people to understand you.  What you seem to be saying is that a more efficient generator configuration in terms of electrical power out vs. mechanical power in is a good thing.  Who can argue with that?

Quote
No drag on the dremel. If there was you would see the Frequency reduce (= less RPM)
I can pull 3 Watts out of this miniature coil and magnet if I increase the Resistance with no drag on the dremel.

There is drag on the Dremel.  Again, the Dremel is acting like a conventional motor so the added Lenz drag of the generator coil load will only marginally reduce the speed of the Dremel while the electrical power draw of the Dremel will noticeably increase.

You second sentence is baffling.  Why do you say there will be no drag on the Dremel?  If you pull three watts from the generator coil there definitely will be drag on the Dremel.

Going back to the testing, there is no "delayed Lenz effect."

MileHigh

#### Farmhand

• Hero Member
• Posts: 1583
##### Re: Delayed Lenz or not?... post your explaination!
« Reply #23 on: December 17, 2014, 04:18:38 PM »
Hi everyone,

I'm starting this topic to further study the effects of a generator coil which causes no load to its prime mover once connected to a 1 Ohm resistive load.
It seems we have many views about what could be happening in such a coil and maybe together we can find an explanation we can all agree upon.

I made a video of a simple test device that demonstrates a coil I consider having this quality.
A sense coil has been carefully positioned in order for both coil sinewaves to be in phase which can also serves as a rotor magnet timing reference.
During the video I didn't verbally explain because of the prime mover noise. However, it should be clear to most who have experience on the matter that once the coil is placed under the 1 Ohm load there is next to no change in Frequency (motor RPM). What's also clear is there's a delay in phase once I adjust the scope probe voltage division.

So the question is, what causes current to delay in a resistive load and what is going on in the coil to cause such an effect?

Regards

Luc

First step would be to show that the generator coil/core does not cause any load even without the resistor.

1) Run the prime mover with no coil or anything near the rotor and determine the real input power from the supply, = Value 1.

2) Then run the prime mover with the coil/core in place ready to load with the load resistor, but with no load and also determine
the real input power from the supply, = Value 2. If there is more input power used in step 2 then there is already a "parasitic"
load on the prime mover from the coil/core. Lenz depending on the coil/core properties the open circuit "Build in Lenz drag" can
made to be a lot so that there is ample parasitic drag to relieve with the load or it could be a little.

3) Then run the setup with a load in place and determine the real input power from the supply and the real output power, if the
load resistor dissipates power of a value greater than the value of the difference between "Value 1"and Value 2" and the input
power in step 3 is the same as the input power in step 1 or less then there might be something of interest.

My guess is that there will be an increase in input power in step 2 compared to step 1 = (increased Lenz), then when the load
is applied so as to not increase the input further still from the input power at step 2, then the output will be a result of reduced
losses, or converting the increased losses (as evidenced by the increased input at step 2 compared to step 1) into an output.

It's almost the old "problem - reaction - solution" paradigm.

..

The answer to your question is in the MIT lecture on "inductance", I've linked the lecture a few times in threads relating to this effect.

It's a restriction of current due to frequency to high for inductance along with some other factors all well explained by conventional
theory and fitting into an under unity reality.

..

#### synchro1

• Hero Member
• Posts: 4775
##### Re: Delayed Lenz or not?... post your explaination!
« Reply #24 on: December 17, 2014, 07:57:09 PM »

Luc or anyone,
we all know the rules, my question is: How can we delay something
that MUST have happened?
John.

Accelerate away from the event.

#### synchro1

• Hero Member
• Posts: 4775
##### Re: Delayed Lenz or not?... post your explaination!
« Reply #25 on: December 17, 2014, 08:15:59 PM »
Luc:

I simply did not understand your prose.  In both of your explanations you don't mention the requirement for the prime mover to supply more mechanical power.  The burden is on you to express yourself properly if you want people to understand you.  What you seem to be saying is that a more efficient generator configuration in terms of electrical power out vs. mechanical power in is a good thing.  Who can argue with that?

There is drag on the Dremel.  Again, the Dremel is acting like a conventional motor so the added Lenz drag of the generator coil load will only marginally reduce the speed of the Dremel while the electrical power draw of the Dremel will noticeably increase.

You second sentence is baffling.  Why do you say there will be no drag on the Dremel?  If you pull three watts from the generator coil there definitely will be drag on the Dremel.

Going back to the testing, there is no "delayed Lenz effect."

MileHigh

@Milehigh,

Here you see JLN'S setup with input power measuring instruments proving there is "Delayed Lenz Effect".

#### gotoluc

• elite_member
• Hero Member
• Posts: 3096
##### Re: Delayed Lenz or not?... post your explaination!
« Reply #26 on: December 17, 2014, 08:36:11 PM »
Luc:

There is drag on the Dremel.  Again, the Dremel is acting like a conventional motor so the added Lenz drag of the generator coil load will only marginally reduce the speed of the Dremel while the electrical power draw of the Dremel will noticeably increase.

You second sentence is baffling.  Why do you say there will be no drag on the Dremel?  If you pull three watts from the generator coil there definitely will be drag on the Dremel.

MileHigh

The Dremel is connected to a Kill-Watt power meter at all time to verify its power consumption.
The power meter has zero change when the coil is connected to the 1 and 12.5 Ohm load. There may be a half Watt increase (hard to tell) when the coil is connected to the 25 Ohm load but it's delivering 3.2 Watts.
So the coil connected to the 25 Ohm load delivers 2.7 Watts output at no power cost to the prime mover.
and the coil connected to the 12.5 Ohm load delivers 2 Watts output at no power cost to the prime mover.

This is what I'm interested in and I think others should also be.
Keep in mind my test device is a toy at best but it's enough to demonstrate a value and I think it warrants more study.
I've said and tested this in the past that a larger scale device will produce much more power with the same benefits.

Luc

#### gotoluc

• elite_member
• Hero Member
• Posts: 3096
##### Re: Delayed Lenz or not?... post your explaination!
« Reply #27 on: December 17, 2014, 08:55:42 PM »
First step would be to show that the generator coil/core does not cause any load even without the resistor.

1) Run the prime mover with no coil or anything near the rotor and determine the real input power from the supply, = Value 1.

It's a restriction of current due to frequency to high for inductance along with some other factors all well explained by conventional
theory and fitting into an under unity reality.

I have no problem showing the power meter with coil open vs on load.

What I disagree with is removing the core, because,  If you took a standard PM generator and removed the cores you would find a drop in power requirement to it's prime mover. So there's no PM generator with zero eddy losses from the cores. Then why do such a test?

Also, I have not mentioned OU but rather suggesting a Generator efficiency boost

Luc

#### minnie

• Hero Member
• Posts: 1244
##### Re: Delayed Lenz or not?... post your explaination!
« Reply #28 on: December 17, 2014, 09:17:24 PM »

synchro1,
there's an old saying " There's no point closing the stable door after the horse
has bolted".
If you can show an induced current without cutting lines you've done it!
John.

#### tinman

• Hero Member
• Posts: 5242
##### Re: Delayed Lenz or not?... post your explaination!
« Reply #29 on: December 17, 2014, 09:25:51 PM »
The best way to do this test is to use an air core coil as the generating coil. This will eliminate the core drag on the prime mover that comes from the core it self. If you can show a speed up under load with an air core coil as the generating coil,then that is something well worth looking at.

@MH
Is the propagation of a magnetic field really the same as the speed of light?, and can you point me in the direction of any papers that show this to be the case?. The speed of light is not constant,as there are a few factors that can change the speed of light. Do these same factors change the speed of a magnetic field ?.