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Author Topic: What's wrong with this  (Read 41272 times)

Offline Floor

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Re: What's wrong with this
« Reply #45 on: December 28, 2014, 08:56:22 AM »
@ MarkE

I think your living in a fantacy here. or is lying a part of the the scientific method,
you pretend to be defending, by posting here?

             floor


    not done yet

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Re: What's wrong with this
« Reply #45 on: December 28, 2014, 08:56:22 AM »

Offline orbut 3000

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Re: What's wrong with this
« Reply #46 on: December 28, 2014, 09:07:26 AM »
@floor


Calm down, why are you so upset? Marke seems to be very polite and patient.

Offline tinman

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Re: What's wrong with this
« Reply #47 on: December 28, 2014, 09:24:40 AM »
Tinman I am sorry but you are completely wrong on this point.  Something that has the same density as the surrounding fluid neither gains nor expends GPE moving up or down because for every gram of that something that moves up, a gram of the surrounding fluid moves down an identical distance, and vice-versa.  You are conflating the absolute GPE that the object has due to its height with the energy that is gained or lost by changing its height inside a fluid volume.
Well that creates an interesting riddle:  You get rid of something while keeping it.  Are you thinking that when you compress a gas that you are removing that gas?  n remains fixed.  PV and/or T change.And the answer remains the same:  If the mass is immersed in some fluid then moving the mass up or down requires doing the exact opposite to a volume of the surrounding fluid equal to the volume of the object you move.  It's important to keep the books straight.No buoyant object raises itself with buoyancy.  It is fluid that surrounds the submersible falling that causes the submersible to rise.  A submarine can cause that to happen by reducing its density:  IE blowing water out of its ballast tanks.That is a terrible analogy.  We have 2000 years of direct intimate experience with gravity and its dependent effect buoyancy.  In all that time the behavior has been evaluated countless times and always found to behave the same.I am sure that you sincerely believe that.  I am also quite sure that you are mistaken.
Maybe i didnt make myself clear on this point. Would it make it better and a little clearer if i said-what is the total energy of a 500 kilogram mass falling 3.2 kilometers and impacting the ground,and that same mass sinking 3.2 kilometers and impacting the sea floor. The total energy disipation in both cases would be the same. Now what would be the total energy of an applied force of 500kg's over a distance of 3.2 KM's?.

Quote:  You get rid of something while keeping it.  Are you thinking that when you compress a gas that you are removing that gas?
Yes-you get rid of something while keeping it. No,the gas is not compressed,it is removed,but can be made to reappear once the vessle hits the sea floor.This is not a riddle,it is a reality. And from this we can see that although we have 2000 years of direct intimate experience with gravity and its dependent effect buoyancy,not everything has been thought of yet.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: What's wrong with this
« Reply #47 on: December 28, 2014, 09:24:40 AM »
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Offline MarkE

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Re: What's wrong with this
« Reply #48 on: December 28, 2014, 10:10:07 AM »
Maybe i didnt make myself clear on this point. Would it make it better and a little clearer if i said-what is the total energy of a 500 kilogram mass falling 3.2 kilometers and impacting the ground,and that same mass sinking 3.2 kilometers and impacting the sea floor. The total energy disipation in both cases would be the same. Now what would be the total energy of an applied force of 500kg's over a distance of 3.2 KM's?.
But they are not the same.  They only approach each other if the density of each mass approaches infinity.  Take 500kg of sea water and place it in a vessel with 1um thick walls.  The gravitational potential energy gained or lost moving that container of sea water up or down any distance in other sea water is negligible.  500kg of seawater in the container goes down a meter, displacing 500kg of surrounding seawater up for a net GPE difference in the system of nearly zero.  Or lift the vessel 1m and 500kg of seawater falls 1m.
Quote

Quote:  You get rid of something while keeping it.  Are you thinking that when you compress a gas that you are removing that gas?
Yes-you get rid of something while keeping it. No,the gas is not compressed,it is removed,but can be made to reappear once the vessle hits the sea floor.This is not a riddle,it is a reality. And from this we can see that although we have 2000 years of direct intimate experience with gravity and its dependent effect buoyancy,not everything has been thought of yet.
Where does this gas go when it is removed such that it can be reclaimed someplace else?  Are you proposing to condense the gas into fluid?

Offline tinman

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Re: What's wrong with this
« Reply #49 on: December 28, 2014, 10:46:56 AM »
But they are not the same.  They only approach each other if the density of each mass approaches infinity.  Take 500kg of sea water and place it in a vessel with 1um thick walls.  The gravitational potential energy gained or lost moving that container of sea water up or down any distance in other sea water is negligible.  500kg of seawater in the container goes down a meter, displacing 500kg of surrounding seawater up for a net GPE difference in the system of nearly zero.  Or lift the vessel 1m and 500kg of seawater falls 1m.Where does this gas go when it is removed such that it can be reclaimed someplace else?  Ayou proposing to condense the gas into fluid?
re
As we are talking buoyancy here,the mass weigh's 500kg's while submerged in water(sea water). So the disipated energy of it's 3.2km fall to the ocean floor must take into account all factors-eg,the energy to move the water being moved around the mass(displaced),and the energy of the final impact on the ocean floor. A mass of the same 500kg falling 3.2km through a vacume and then impacting the ground will have only the energy disipation of the impact on the ground. The total disipated energy of these two situations will have the same net result.

This is why i said-a kg of grass weighs more that a kg of brick's,because your 500kg weighs more in a vacuum than it dose in water,where as my 500kg's of mass is relative to the enviroment in which it is in. So this brings to reason my question-what energy do we gain from a falling 500kg mass a distance of 3.2km,and what energy dose it take to raise a 500kg mass 3.2km. By my questions are based around that 500kg mass being in the same enviroment,where as you took them and placed them in two different enviroment's.

Quote: Ayou proposing to condense the gas into fluid?
Now your getting close,but no energy is required to condence this gas into fluid.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: What's wrong with this
« Reply #49 on: December 28, 2014, 10:46:56 AM »
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Offline MarkE

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Re: What's wrong with this
« Reply #50 on: December 28, 2014, 12:00:34 PM »
As we are talking buoyancy here,the mass weigh's 500kg's while submerged in water(sea water).
OK, now we are getting somewhere.  You mean that the object has 4900N wet weight.
Quote
So the disipated energy of it's 3.2km fall to the ocean floor must take into account all factors-eg,the energy to move the water being moved around the mass(displaced),and the energy of the final impact on the ocean floor.
Impulse and energy are different.
Quote
A mass of the same 500kg falling 3.2km through a vacume and then impacting the ground will have only the energy disipation of the impact on the ground. The total disipated energy of these two situations will have the same net result.
OK here is a problem:  You are referring to two objects one with 4900N wet weight, and a different mass that has 4900N dry weight.  If that's what you want, and it seems so, then you really need to qualify each of them as wet or dry weights.  Their masses are different.  That matters because when you go to calculate kinetic energy you need the mass of each which are different values.
Quote

This is why i said-a kg of grass weighs more that a kg of brick's,because your 500kg weighs more in a vacuum than it dose in water,where as my 500kg's of mass is relative to the enviroment in which it is in. So this brings to reason my question-what energy do we gain from a falling 500kg mass a distance of 3.2km,and what energy dose it take to raise a 500kg mass 3.2km. By my questions are based around that 500kg mass being in the same enviroment,where as you took them and placed them in two different enviroment's.
I get your reasoning, but it is backwards.  Absent viscous drag the work that we have to do to accelerate xxx kg mass is independent of density or the local value of G.  yyy N weight depends on the environment: G locally and what if any fluid atmosphere it is immersed in.  From an energy standpoint we can equate wet and dry weights under the conditions:  Acceleration is negligible, and viscous drag is negligible.  That pretty much means that they remain at rest at static heights, or we accelerate and move them very slowly.
Quote

Quote: Ayou proposing to condense the gas into fluid?
Now your getting close,but no energy is required to condence this gas into fluid.
I am pressed to think of a substance that does not have a heat of evaporation.

Offline tinman

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Re: What's wrong with this
« Reply #51 on: December 28, 2014, 01:21:29 PM »
OK, now we are getting somewhere.  You mean that the object has 4900N wet weight.Impulse and energy are different.OK here is a problem:  You are referring to two objects one with 4900N wet weight, and a different mass that has 4900N dry weight.  If that's what you want, and it seems so, then you really need to qualify each of them as wet or dry weights.  Their masses are different.  That matters because when you go to calculate kinetic energy you need the mass of each which are different values.I get your reasoning, but it is backwards.  Absent viscous drag the work that we have to do to accelerate xxx kg mass is independent of density or the local value of G.  yyy N weight depends on the environment: G locally and what if any fluid atmosphere it is immersed in.  From an energy standpoint we can equate wet and dry weights under the conditions:  Acceleration is negligible, and viscous drag is negligible.  That pretty much means that they remain at rest at static heights, or we accelerate and move them very slowly.I am pressed to think of a substance that does not have a heat of evaporation.
I mean the bloody thing weighs 500kg's submerged-in other word's,you would have to apply a 500kg force in the opposite direction(up) to stop the mass sinking.This thing about vacume's was your instal to the conversation,and i fail to see what it has to do with any vessle or it's weight,or it's kinetic energy in regards to buoyancy. Im not interested in simulator's,im interested in real device testing and result's.Dose your simulator have an LED?,most i know do not. You have to simulate an LED to simulate a circuit that has an LED in it. Dose it take into account earth's gravity and magnetic field's?. Can it simulate a sinking object that weigh's 500kg when submerged-will it take into account the difference between salt and fresh water. What about current's and temp changes?.

Quote: I am pressed to think of a substance that does not have a heat of evaporation.
Please explain in english

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: What's wrong with this
« Reply #51 on: December 28, 2014, 01:21:29 PM »
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Offline TinselKoala

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Re: What's wrong with this
« Reply #52 on: December 28, 2014, 02:23:39 PM »
http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/fluids-evaporation-latent-heat-d_147.html
Fluids require input of energy to change from liquid at a given temperature to gas at that same temperature. This energy is returned when the fluid condenses from a gas into a liquid again, at the same temperature.
The latent heat of evaporation for water, for example, is 2257 kiloJoules per kilogram, a not insignificant amount of energy.

http://www.falstad.com/circuit/
If you run the applet and then select from the "Circuits" top menu item, "Sequential Logic", you will find the LED Flasher which shows some example LEDs in a circuit, and by right-clicking on any of the LEDs you can see how to set the desired forward voltage and color of your LEDs in the simulation. They are diodes, after all, with a specific forward voltage drop. This is a very simple LED model, though.

More sophisticated circuit simulators like LTSpice  allow you to build your own more complete models for LEDs. Here is a company that makes some pretty sophisticated LED models for several circuit simulators:
http://electro-designs.ucoz.com/index/0-2



Offline MarkE

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Re: What's wrong with this
« Reply #53 on: December 28, 2014, 02:35:32 PM »
I mean the bloody thing weighs 500kg's submerged-in other word's,you would have to apply a 500kg force in the opposite direction(up) to stop the mass sinking.This thing about vacume's was your instal to the conversation,and i fail to see what it has to do with any vessle or it's weight,or it's kinetic energy in regards to buoyancy. Im not interested in simulator's,im interested in real device testing and result's.Dose your simulator have an LED?,most i know do not. You have to simulate an LED to simulate a circuit that has an LED in it. Dose it take into account earth's gravity and magnetic field's?. Can it simulate a sinking object that weigh's 500kg when submerged-will it take into account the difference between salt and fresh water. What about current's and temp changes?.

Quote: I am pressed to think of a substance that does not have a heat of evaporation.
Please explain in english
Tinman:  mass and weight are related but very different things.  Newtons are a measure of force.  Kilograms are a measure of mass.  When you used the words:  "mass" and "kilogram" to describe weight and Newtons / 9.8m/s/s you conflated two different concepts.  I have explained to you that while one can talk about wet weight for GPE purposes, when you get around to doing any energy calculations that involve movement in a finite amount of time you need the mass.

Different simulators have different capabilities.  Any of many free circuit simulators will readily model your spinning wheel two coil arrangement with stunning accuracy.

You said that it takes no energy to convert the material you have in mind between liquid and gas states.  The energy to make that transition is called the heat of vaporization.  I don't know of any material where that value is zero.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: What's wrong with this
« Reply #53 on: December 28, 2014, 02:35:32 PM »
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Offline tinman

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Re: What's wrong with this
« Reply #54 on: December 28, 2014, 02:51:50 PM »

You said that it takes no energy to convert the material you have in mind between liquid and gas states.  The energy to make that transition is called the heat of vaporization.  I don't know of any material where that value is zero.
No i didnt. I said it takes no energy to turn the gas into liquid. And like i said before,when this transition is taking place,energy is returned to the source that created it.

Offline MarkE

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Re: What's wrong with this
« Reply #55 on: December 28, 2014, 03:03:36 PM »
No i didnt. I said it takes no energy to turn the gas into liquid. And like i said before,when this transition is taking place,energy is returned to the source that created it.
Are those blue berries blueberries???

Quote
Quote
Re: What's wrong with this
Quote


    Quote: Ayou proposing to condense the gas into fluid?
    Now your getting close,but no energy is required to condence this gas into fluid.
Quote

I am pressed to think of a substance that does not have a heat of evaporation.
OK, so it's your idea that you are going to condense gas into denser liquid so that you can sink, and that when you make the transition in that direction, you will rely only on passive cooling to do so?

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: What's wrong with this
« Reply #55 on: December 28, 2014, 03:03:36 PM »
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Offline Floor

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Re: What's wrong with this
« Reply #56 on: December 28, 2014, 05:28:44 PM »
@ markE

not done yet

So as I said before this is not an attack upon you or anyone else.  As I said before
I respect both your experience and your knowledge.  My goal has been, to give you a taste
of bad behavior, a PERSONAL affront,  sufficient to make you begin to wonder if it wasn't
maybe going to get really bad for you,  and at leat to wonder if it might not stop soon or if it might
continue for a really long time, even perhaps follow you through the forum. 

An exemplary bad behaviour.
Which you returned but not in kind, different / academic style.

As I said, I have no REAL ill will towards you, nor has my intent been to do any harm to you.  Not my goal
on the forum.  My hope is that you,  in having this FRESH experience, might consider becomeing
more vocal in reguard to this sort of stinky behaviour.  It wastes a lot of time.  And often does real harm.

My story about the suicide was not BS.

Maybe that kind of experience doesn't bother ypu at all,  I don't know.
In which case do nothing. and neither consider makeing  improvements in your own methods either.

Sorry I love the neither either.

I'll say this, your pretty good at feigning that it doesn't.

                            cheers
                                floor
                                           PS
                                                    You said
                                                     some thing about establishing the baiscs of the discussion
                                                     of the buoyance idea.   In case you are actually intrested in
                                                     proceding with it, and as gentle men.  I'm posting the PDF again.

                                           please find the attached MarkE PDF below

                                                       

Offline MarkE

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Re: What's wrong with this
« Reply #57 on: December 28, 2014, 05:49:23 PM »
@ markE

not done yet

So as I said before this is not an attack upon you or anyone else.  As I said before
I respect both your experience and your knowledge.  My goal has been, to give you a taste
of bad behavior, a PERSONAL affront,  sufficient to make you begin to wonder if it wasn't
maybe going to get really bad for you,  and at leat to wonder if it might not stop soon or if it might
continue for a really long time, even perhaps follow you through the forum. 

An exemplary bad behaviour.
Which you returned but not in kind, different / academic style.

As I said, I have no REAL ill will towards you, nor has my intent been to do any harm to you.  Not my goal
on the forum.  My hope is that you,  in having this FRESH experience, might consider becomeing
more vocal in reguard to this sort of stinky behaviour.  It wastes a lot of time.  And often does real harm.

My story about the suicide was not BS.

Maybe that kind of experience doesn't bother ypu at all,  I don't know.
In which case do nothing. and neither consider makeing  improvements in your own methods either.

Sorry I love the neither either.

I'll say this, your pretty good at feigning that it doesn't.

                            cheers
                                floor
                                           PS
                                                    You said
                                                     some thing about establishing the baiscs of the discussion
                                                     of the buoyance idea.   In case you are actually intrested in
                                                     proceding with it, and as gentle men.  I'm posting the PDF again.

                                           please find the attached MarkE PDF below

                                                     
Do you see the irony yet?

Offline Floor

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Re: What's wrong with this
« Reply #58 on: December 28, 2014, 10:21:04 PM »
@ the reader

For the benifit of both my self and that of MarkE
Let it be under stood that the hypothetical and mock character assault during the
course of the prior discussion was intended to have has no basis in fact.
   
Any resmblance to MarkE's actual character is purely coincidental, and no
resemblance is implied or intended to be applied.

To the best of my knowledge MarkE is a highly knowledgeable and experiecned researcher in the
feild of free energy research,  and a respected member of the OverUnity forum.

The facts are that I have practically no knowleged of MarkE upon which I could actually base
any other characterization of him.

I have not made this statment at the request of, or the insistence of any one, but as my own choice.

                                floor

Offline dieter

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Re: What's wrong with this
« Reply #59 on: December 29, 2014, 02:45:54 AM »
Wow Floor, this sounds like somebody holds a knife right at your balls. I hope you're ok.  Let us know when you need help from the OU Vendetta Squad. ("To the OU Mobile !!")  8)


Peace

 

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