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Author Topic: What's wrong with this  (Read 41276 times)

Offline tinman

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Re: What's wrong with this
« Reply #150 on: January 03, 2015, 01:05:00 AM »
                 

          floor
Quote
I believe I owe you a debt on several accounts.  Additionally, I hope that you will accept this apology
for my poor behavior during some particular exchanges between us.  I was assuming, condescending, and insinuating etc. .  This was due only to my own perceptual experience, not your fault.  Sorry.

Quote
No need to apologise Floor,there will always come a time when we dont agree on everything.

I don't know the following to be true with absolute certainty,  but I think

1. you may have been goaded into making your presentation prematurely,
                and
2. you may have been goaded into making your presentation out of the context that is your actual intention as well.

When you present something that go's against what others may believe,they ofcourse want to see this happen,and ask you to show this takeing place. Once you do that,they then want you to show it in another way,or use a different method. What i have found in the past is the more you do the more they want,and they keep wanting until they have you totally side tracked and going backwards to where you already were.

Quote
From where I'm standing it looks like my little topic here has been raided, and that you are being
artfully harassed.

They do that you know.

Quote
Additionally, I would  like to acknowledge that this might not be the case. 
It may be that it's just a bunch of people hav'nt realized that they might not be having a
good effect on the forum ?

Make no mistake,Mark would be one of the brightest people i has seen on forums like this,and i believe his intentions are good. But wether he know's it or not,he is actually starting(piece by piece) to answer in his own words how something like this could be possable. A Mole is a Mole is a Mole-really ;) So dose one get back 1ltr of water when 1860ltr of HHO is burned?.If so,how can that be?-what fuel gives of heat but is not consumed-all is returned back to it's raw state. If we dont get back 1ltr of water,then where did the missing amount go if it's in a sealed vessel?.



Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: What's wrong with this
« Reply #150 on: January 03, 2015, 01:05:00 AM »

Offline MileHigh

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Re: What's wrong with this
« Reply #151 on: January 03, 2015, 02:19:26 AM »
Tinman:

It can be a pain in the ass when people repeatedly question you no doubt.  But it's all part of a process.  Look, let's assume that people have rational minds.  Your rational mind tells you that if the mass of something doesn't change from time A to time B, then it should weigh the same at time A and time B.  I think that everybody can agree with that.

I haven't really followed the thread, but when you observed a weight change, did you try to rule out any possible explanations for what you observed?  How exhaustive were you, did you look at multiple possibilities?

I am sure you are aware that a classic thing with a newbie and electronics is that they observe something that appears to be out of the ordinary, and they just believe it.  They don't try anything at all to refute their own observations.  And that's clearly part of a generic problem with the forums.  I can't tell you how may times I told someone they were wrong because of poor measuring techniques, or they didn't understand what they were looking at, or they were sloppy, etc.  Sometimes they understand and adapt, sometimes they just scowl at you.

Quote
Make no mistake,Mark would be one of the brightest people i has seen on forums like this,and i believe his intentions are good. But wether he know's it or not,he is actually starting(piece by piece) to answer in his own words how something like this could be possable. A Mole is a Mole is a Mole-really (http://overunity.com/Smileys/default/wink.gif) So dose one get back 1ltr of water when 1860ltr of HHO is burned?.If so,how can that be?-what fuel gives of heat but is not consumed-all is returned back to it's raw state. If we dont get back 1ltr of water,then where did the missing amount go if it's in a sealed vessel?.

I am not sure if you are being serious here but water is normally a liquid and H2 and O2 are normally gases.  That explains the volume difference at STP (Standard temperature and pressure.)  The number of moles does not change, the mass does not change.

Why does it give off heat but nothing is consumed?  I just use a non-technical explanation for that.  The electric field literally rips apart the water molecule.  That takes energy and that cocks an 'invisible spring.'  Then when the hydrogen and oxygen recombine into water, all of those invisible springs snap back into place and release their stored energy in the form of heat.   So just like separating two magnets apart is cocking an invisible magnetic spring, ripping apart a water molecule is cocking an invisible spring.

MileHigh

Offline MarkE

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Re: What's wrong with this
« Reply #152 on: January 03, 2015, 02:27:20 AM »
When you present something that go's against what others may believe,they ofcourse want to see this happen,and ask you to show this takeing place. Once you do that,they then want you to show it in another way,or use a different method. What i have found in the past is the more you do the more they want,and they keep wanting until they have you totally side tracked and going backwards to where you already were.

They do that you know.

Make no mistake,Mark would be one of the brightest people i has seen on forums like this,and i believe his intentions are good. But wether he know's it or not,he is actually starting(piece by piece) to answer in his own words how something like this could be possable. A Mole is a Mole is a Mole-really ;) So dose one get back 1ltr of water when 1860ltr of HHO is burned?.If so,how can that be?-what fuel gives of heat but is not consumed-all is returned back to it's raw state. If we dont get back 1ltr of water,then where did the missing amount go if it's in a sealed vessel?.
Tinman the dirty part of doing science is that when a discrepancy is found it can take many pains taking experiments to bore down to the real reason for the observed discrepancy.  This can be very time consuming, and quite exasperating but it's work that has to be done.  Anything short of that is just jumping to conclusions.

Moles are a measure of how much of any kind of "stuff" (matter) we have.  They are the "n" in the various gas laws.  In different states, at different temperatures and pressures different quantities of matter occupy the same space, and conversely the same amount of matter occupies different amounts of space at different:  states, temperatures, and pressures.  What doesn't get created or destroyed is energy/matter.  In ordinary chemistry experiments where the energy values are low, any mass/energy conversion is so small that it is below what we can usually detect.  That means that for practice and purpose, we can state that in any closed chemistry experiment the mass of the feed stock reagents and the post reaction products is constant.  The total number of moles can change and that means that pressure, temperature, and volume are all up for grabs depending on the reaction(s) that take place.  So, there is no liter of water / liter of HHO.  There is some mass of water that will (for practice and purpose) exactly match the mass of HHO that reacts.



Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: What's wrong with this
« Reply #152 on: January 03, 2015, 02:27:20 AM »
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Offline Floor

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Re: What's wrong with this
« Reply #153 on: January 03, 2015, 02:37:19 AM »
@Tinman

Awesome concept !

A mind which has been heavily conditioned by academia might
be less likely to arrive at a concept like this. (within in any given
period of time). 

The two side of the "contest " manifesting under this subject are
a little like the two side of the brain.   If either one is missing, the body
can still function, but it's a lot better if things go the way nature intended.
I emphasize the word contest with parenthesis, because I want to move
beyond the competitive aspect.

If we can get beyond struggling for dominance a lot of wonderful things will
happen.

Thanks again for hanging in there.   Get some rest you've earned it in my book..

Thank you MarkE for hanging in there as well.


            floor

Offline tinman

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Re: What's wrong with this
« Reply #154 on: January 03, 2015, 03:46:33 AM »
@Tinman

Awesome concept !

A mind which has been heavily conditioned by academia might
be less likely to arrive at a concept like this. (within in any given
period of time). 

The two side of the "contest " manifesting under this subject are
a little like the two side of the brain.   If either one is missing, the body
can still function, but it's a lot better if things go the way nature intended.
I emphasize the word contest with parenthesis, because I want to move
beyond the competitive aspect.

If we can get beyond struggling for dominance a lot of wonderful things will
happen.

Thanks again for hanging in there.   Get some rest you've earned it in my book..

Thank you MarkE for hanging in there as well.


            floor
There is just to many holes and theories in science and physics Floor,and Mark(in a couple of different threads)has contradicted him self when using his physics and well know science. He says in one instant that mass cannot change regardless of the state that mass may be in-EG,water to HHO. But then he states that mass increases as it approaches the speed of light ???

Well-Mass either can or cannot increase or decrease-which is it?.

In fact,this deserves a thread of it's own
It's time to tare down physics into fact/theory and fiction.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: What's wrong with this
« Reply #154 on: January 03, 2015, 03:46:33 AM »
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Offline MarkE

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Re: What's wrong with this
« Reply #155 on: January 03, 2015, 05:18:36 AM »
There is just to many holes and theories in science and physics Floor,and Mark(in a couple of different threads)has contradicted him self when using his physics and well know science. He says in one instant that mass cannot change regardless of the state that mass may be in-EG,water to HHO. But then he states that mass increases as it approaches the speed of light ???

Well-Mass either can or cannot increase or decrease-which is it?.
Context matters as does accurate quotations.  Rest mass is invariant.  The energy required to accelerate a given mass at non-relativistic velocities is essentially just the time integral of the acceleration multiplied by the rest mass.  The energy expended to go between two velocities is:  0.5*m*(VEND2 - VSTART2).  That approximation loses accuracy as velocities become a significant fraction of the speed of light.  Then the velocity dependent term in the denominator of the energy equation starts to grow exponentially.
Quote

In fact,this deserves a thread of it's own
It's time to tare down physics into fact/theory and fiction.

Offline Floor

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Re: What's wrong with this
« Reply #156 on: January 03, 2015, 06:09:07 AM »
@tinman

Is it that

1.mass cannot change regardless of the state that mass may be in-EG,water to HHO. or
or
2. that mass increases as it approaches the speed of light) ?

good question, perhaps this does deserve another thread ?

It's been difficult to remain on topic as it is.

                   floor

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: What's wrong with this
« Reply #156 on: January 03, 2015, 06:09:07 AM »
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Offline tinman

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Re: What's wrong with this
« Reply #157 on: January 03, 2015, 06:48:48 AM »
@tinman

Is it that

1.mass cannot change regardless of the state that mass may be in-EG,water to HHO. or
or
2. that mass increases as it approaches the speed of light) ?

good question, perhaps this does deserve another thread ?

It's been difficult to remain on topic as it is.

                   floor
Yes,things seem to have taken a left turn from topic,and thus the new thread i started.

Offline Floor

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Re: What's wrong with this
« Reply #158 on: January 03, 2015, 10:30:04 AM »
@MarkE

May be you are multitasking right now ? You may of course do as you wish, but I hope that
you will be able to spend some time with what I'm going to say here.

This is a topic which I have started.  This I think, entitles me to some latitude, what I need to say will take a few words.   
 
The fact that most of the discussion on my topic has been off topic, is only partly your fault.
It is also a result of the tactics I have used to get to this point. It's something that I hadn't fully anticipated.   It's just some thing that I have had to cope with, in order to get to this
point.

Pages and pages of OFF SUBJECT material not just OFF TOPIC material.  The emphasis I have
placed by using capitalization is not to quibble (some fine point) with you.

I have had a strategy and a direction through out this endeavor.  I realize that you may be / should be incredulous and doubting of that.

My strategy required that I put someone LIKE you into a defensive posture, in order to demonstrate something, to that person. I'm glad in one respect that this happened to be you. Because I think/hope you took it unscathed. (I'll explain the emphasis on the word LIKE later, if need be.) Unfortunately it was unlikely that I could do this in a purely technical arena.  This was one of the features of my idea that I really had to struggle with before I could commit to the strategy, and honestly all through it's implementation.   It really upped the anti (my risk) if I needed to create a perceptual experience for that person that was on a personal level.  I had to weigh this level of risk against the potential value.  Believe me when I say that I was also examining  my own motives on a constant basis.

Here is a little less than the full gambit of the plan.

1. attract appropriate person.
2. get the person into a defensive posture.
3. challenge and defeat that person.
4. get that person to be in denial of his defeat.

The sum of this has required a lot of improvisation.

The next part is to (hope fully) regain that persons trust. 

Then to to get them to accept that they were defeated by a some one that was born into dire poverty, completed only one year of high school, and lived a third of his adult life as a homeless person.

This hasn't been “all just for my own vein glory”.  Really.

That's all for now

                           floor

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: What's wrong with this
« Reply #158 on: January 03, 2015, 10:30:04 AM »
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