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Author Topic: What's wrong with this  (Read 43113 times)

Offline Floor

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What's wrong with this
« on: December 14, 2014, 06:05:50 PM »
If Ou can be done any where, then it can be done any where ?

Please find the attached file OUfloater 3.pdf

Cheers
       floor

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

What's wrong with this
« on: December 14, 2014, 06:05:50 PM »

Offline Floor

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Re: What's wrong with this
« Reply #1 on: December 14, 2014, 06:48:46 PM »
Place a negative gas pressure inside (vacuum)  "sealed gas tank" to eliminate air friction.

Yes, pressure will be the same at both valves, so it won't help with inserting the bottom float. 
But the bouyancy of the floats will contribute some amount to the insertion of the bottom float.


                  Cheers
                           floor

Offline Floor

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Re: What's wrong with this
« Reply #2 on: December 14, 2014, 07:13:20 PM »
The surface area of the floats can be changed with out changing the volumn of the floats.

The shape of the floats can be changed without changing the volumn of the floats.
This can make the floats more streamlined after they pass through the valves.

                               floor

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: What's wrong with this
« Reply #2 on: December 14, 2014, 07:13:20 PM »
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Offline Floor

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Re: What's wrong with this
« Reply #3 on: December 14, 2014, 07:28:42 PM »
The shape of the floats and the smoothness of their surfaces will affect the energy lost
as the floats rise through the fluid.

The viscocity of the fluid will affect the friction against the floats.

The turbulence in the fluid opposing the floats riseing, will DRAMATICALLY
increase with the speed of the floats riseing. 

Slow the riseing of the floats by collecting the energy of their riseing.

                    floor


Offline TinselKoala

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Re: What's wrong with this
« Reply #4 on: December 14, 2014, 11:09:51 PM »
If you are allowed to use "magic" anywhere in your design, it's not allowed in the real world.

For example, I have permanent magnet motors that only need negative-coefficient of friction bearings to run without outside power.

It is real-world losses that prevent most every Free Energy device from operating in the real world. Magic valves are nice, though. Wake me up when you can buy them from your local sorcerer and we'll see if they will work in your design. Please pick up some negative friction bearings for me while you are shopping, won't you?

Don't forget that as you push up the bottom floater through the bottom magic valve, you are not only lifting it against gravity but you are also pushing out the top floater through its magic valve, lifting it up against gravity as well.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: What's wrong with this
« Reply #4 on: December 14, 2014, 11:09:51 PM »
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Offline Floor

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Re: What's wrong with this
« Reply #5 on: December 15, 2014, 12:43:15 AM »
@ T.K.

For sure, I'll let you know if I run across any negative friction
bearings.

So the "Magic Valve" Is described on the last page of the previous PDF  file (OUfloater 3). and also
reproduced in the  (MagicValve.pdf) attached below.

As you have probably guessed, it's not realy magic ! But it can let an object in or out of a
fluid or gas filled chamber with out letting fluid or gas, in or  out.

Quote "Don't forget that as you push up the bottom floater through the bottom magic valve, you are not only lifting it against gravity but you are also pushing out the top floater through its magic valve, lifting it up against gravity as well "End Quote

Between the bouyancy of the two floats, only the weight of one of the floats will be lifted, (before losses).

        floor



Offline MarkE

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Re: What's wrong with this
« Reply #6 on: December 15, 2014, 01:21:23 AM »
If Ou can be done any where, then it can be done any where ?

Please find the attached file OUfloater 3.pdf

Cheers
       floor
It doesn't work for reasons that have been explained concerning buoyancy schemes before.

At the bottom of the tank the float entering has zero impetus to enter the fluid section, magic valves or not.  The only way to get that float into the fluid section is to displace a volume of fluid equal to the float volume.  The fact that one is doing work lifting another float out the top does not help.  It just complicates the bookkeeping.  The problem can be simplified to a representation of the linear sum of two processes:  A first process of inserting a buoyant float into the bottom of a fluid column and allowing that float to rise up through the fluid, and a second process of withdrawing the float from the top of the fluid column and recovering the added energy by dropping the float.  Even in the ideal case the first process is always lossy as shown in the attached diagram.  In the ideal case the second process can at best be break even.  The sum of the two processes is therefore always lossy even before any practical problems of magic valves or other special pleadings are addressed.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: What's wrong with this
« Reply #6 on: December 15, 2014, 01:21:23 AM »
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Offline Floor

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Re: What's wrong with this
« Reply #7 on: December 15, 2014, 02:52:24 AM »
@Mark E

I see some similarity,  (a fluid and a float)

But

1. There is fluid dispalcement in what I presented, but there is no fluid rise above the
starting fluid level in what I have presented.

2. There is no drop in the fluid level, or falling of the fluid in what  I presented.

3. There is no air lock in what I presented.

Quote "Even in the ideal case the first process is always lossy as shown in the attached diagram. "End Quote

4. The diagram "first process" you presented, does not apply to the example (except to illustrate the the volume
exchanges are equal ?)

5. "Lossy" or not, the insertion of the float into the fluid vessel and the rise of the float (before losses) are
equal.

6. You made no representation of the energy in the free fall of the float (in air or vacuum),
in comparison  to the equal exchange (before losses), of the first two process I presented
(the insertion of the floats against pressure and floatation).

I respect your experience and knowledge, and I wish your input had been more relevent
to my query.  If you will please review my presentation with closer scutiny, I would
welcome the more relevant input.

                       Sincerely
                            floor





Offline MarkE

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Re: What's wrong with this
« Reply #8 on: December 15, 2014, 05:08:01 AM »
@Mark E

I see some similarity,  (a fluid and a float)

But

1. There is fluid dispalcement in what I presented, but there is no fluid rise above the
starting fluid level in what I have presented.

2. There is no drop in the fluid level, or falling of the fluid in what  I presented.

3. There is no air lock in what I presented.

Quote "Even in the ideal case the first process is always lossy as shown in the attached diagram. "End Quote

4. The diagram "first process" you presented, does not apply to the example (except to illustrate the the volume
exchanges are equal ?)

5. "Lossy" or not, the insertion of the float into the fluid vessel and the rise of the float (before losses) are
equal.

6. You made no representation of the energy in the free fall of the float (in air or vacuum),
in comparison  to the equal exchange (before losses), of the first two process I presented
(the insertion of the floats against pressure and floatation).

I respect your experience and knowledge, and I wish your input had been more relevent
to my query.  If you will please review my presentation with closer scutiny, I would
welcome the more relevant input.

                       Sincerely
                            floor
The principles at work are the same.  Go ahead and make a state diagram for one cycle and track the energy in out and stored at each state.  If you can show a gain in energy over the course of one cycle.  For the reasons I have already explained you will not be able to do that.  Let's review again:

1) No float can rise in a containing fluid in any finite time without a greater mass of fluid falling.  Ergo the system always loses stored energy between the state with the float at the bottom and the state with the float at the top.

2) No energy can be gained by removing a float from the top of a tank and dropping it.  In the ideal case the GPE lost by the float is completely transferred outside the system as useful work and the there is zero sum gain.

Ergo buoyancy machines consume rather than generate net energy each cycle.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: What's wrong with this
« Reply #8 on: December 15, 2014, 05:08:01 AM »
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Offline Floor

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Re: What's wrong with this
« Reply #9 on: December 16, 2014, 01:47:16 AM »
@MarkE

I'll do some diagrams as you suggest.  Thanks, untill then.
 

                   floor

Offline Floor

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Re: What's wrong with this
« Reply #10 on: December 22, 2014, 06:28:45 PM »
Work from gravity.

Since it's "all been tried before ?" and "humanity has not learned anything new in the last 1.000 years ?"
and since "there are no new available materials ?" and "resources like mineature super computers on our desk tops
don't exist ?" and "there is no such thing as the global networking of information and ideas and resources" and because
some say it can't be done, so don't even try! BS

                  merry christmas
                  floor

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: What's wrong with this
« Reply #10 on: December 22, 2014, 06:28:45 PM »
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Offline dieter

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Re: What's wrong with this
« Reply #11 on: December 22, 2014, 10:58:28 PM »
Hi Floor,


I like the concept, tho the valve system may be tricky to implement. However, I think you must consider the waterpressure will rise, the deeper you go. Which is why you get a strong pressure feeling in your ears when you dive in a pool or lake down to like 10 meters.


But that does not render the entire concept impossible. It just alters the gain calculation. You may also think about a compressible floater that is compressed just as much as is needed to equalize the pressure diffrence, which would then result in a variation in buoyancy.


Merry christmas to you too.


Peace


Offline MarkE

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Re: What's wrong with this
« Reply #12 on: December 22, 2014, 11:02:19 PM »
One of the basic fallacies is caused by a failure to account for all the pertinent energy at any given state.  Calculate the gravitational potential energy at each state.  If you do the work correctly, you will find that going from a state where the float is at the bottom to where the float reaches the top results in a net loss of potential energy.

Ask yourself what causes the float to rise?  A. Denser fluid falling.  If you question that idea get some oil, water and food coloring.  Fill a vessel 1/3 with water.  Add a drop or two of food coloring to the water.  Then pour in vegetable oil.  The vegetable oil floats to the top.  The system finds its lowest energy state.  You will have to do work to force the lower density oil down, thus displacing a greater mass of water upward.  The same thing happens with a float.

Offline Floor

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Re: What's wrong with this
« Reply #13 on: December 24, 2014, 03:01:24 PM »
@ Dieter

Thank you for the suggestion, thats an interesting idea.

                          cheers

                                 floor

Offline Floor

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Re: What's wrong with this
« Reply #14 on: December 24, 2014, 03:05:10 PM »
@ MarkE

            Thank you for your input and time.

I have some specific questions I would like to ask you.

They are in the attached pdf file "markE 1.pdf

                               cheers
                                    floor

 

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