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Gravity powered devices => Gravity powered devices => Topic started by: inroades on September 21, 2006, 12:30:17 AM

Title: Centrifugal gravity wheel
Post by: inroades on September 21, 2006, 12:30:17 AM
  Hello all
   I have not posted here before. I have a Centrifugal Gravity Motor I designed that has been looked at by a couple engineers and has promise. I have no idea how to post pictures and share this with you as I would love your input.  Can you help me.
   Thanks
   Dale
Title: Re: Centrifugal gravity wheel
Post by: gyulasun on September 21, 2006, 12:52:00 AM
Hi,

If you click on the Reply icon, you can see the Attach line with Browse at the bottom of the opening page and you can see the files types permitted. Have a try. When you click on the Browse, you can pick your pictures from your hard disk (click on 'more attachments' if you upload several pictures in one post).

Gyula
Title: Re: Centrifugal gravity wheel
Post by: inroades on September 21, 2006, 01:04:23 AM
Hello

 I am not a engineer or claim to be particularly clever but this idea is one that I have been working on close to a year now. I have had two mech engineers look at it and tell me the numbers work but PM doesn't exist. My drawings are just terrible and my explanations are poor and I hope that you can understand the concept.
          Here is the basic idea, there are two power sources on the machine. The primary is the wheel with a pto at the hub and the secondary is from the power plate below attached to a center shaft.
         The wheel has weights that slide on spokes with latches that hold them in 2 positions, Inside closest to the hub (up position), Mid is the outside latched position or power position, and a free or unlatched outside position. The wheel must be turned or started to about 1.5 gravity in centrifugal force before the weights can be released. 60 to 75 RPM on a 6 foot wheel I am guessing. A weight is released at just before TDC and centrifugal force powers it upward to the upper power ramp the ramp converts the centrifugal force to rotational power and the weight latches in the mid position. Just before BDC the weight is released again to free fall but is still attached to the slide. (It does not come off the slide)
   Centrifugal force increases on the square in relation to rotation speed so centrifugal, rotational, and gravity will combine to create a vector that the weight can accelerate along towards the lower spring ramp. I believe a 50lb weight at 150 rpm will have approx 350lbs of force that will be stored in the lower ramp spring and the spring returns a 50lb weight to the inside latched position. The movements of the weight at the lower ramp are linear so centrifugal forces don't need to be overcome.(centrifugal and centripetal forces are equal but don't act on the same body)
   The secondary power source is from the centrifugal force differential. the moment of the power side weights is greater and they are moving faster than the return side weights. I believe that will create a strong internal force or torque to the power side of the wheel. If the wheel where mounted on a triple pedestal the mid plate could be geared or driven by the upper and the power harnessed. The cool thing about this power is it will be pure force or torque the plate could be stopped completely without effecting the wheel.
   Here are some thoughts.
      I have completed some crude tennis ball testing, they are about 60% efficient and at 150 rpm on a 6 foot wheel the ball will rise 12 to 15 feet above the contact point.
      A spring engineer tells me that if I preloaded correctly I can expect 99 percent efficiency
      Individual springs on the weights may be better than one under the ramp.
      Release timing(s) of the weights can work as a throttle.
      Friction at the lower ramp will be high, I may need to allow a spoke to hinge 10 to 15 degrees while the spring compresses.
      If the compression friction is to great I may have to find a way to disengage the weight all together and catch it on the inside.
      Ramp angles will be critical to RPM
      Latches need to be frictionless maybe electro magnetic
      Maybe opposing permanent magnets would work better than wheels.
      Maybe just maybe I can make power on the lower side, as the weight will return with a lot of force, timing that event will be tough.
      I believe I am comfortably inside the terminal velocity window up to about 400 rpm on a 8 foot wheel.
      If the wheel requires a little assist maybe the combined output would go OU.
   I am trying to attach the pictures and the numbers on the pictures are my best guess. Hows that for a disclaimer.
   Thanks all for looking.
   Dale
     



 









Title: Re: Centrifugal gravity wheel
Post by: inroades on September 21, 2006, 01:07:58 AM
  I will try again on the pictures
Title: Re: Centrifugal gravity wheel
Post by: inroades on September 21, 2006, 01:09:36 AM
one more
Title: Re: Centrifugal gravity wheel
Post by: FreeEnergy on September 21, 2006, 05:57:05 AM
looks like it will work.
Title: Re: Centrifugal gravity wheel
Post by: hartiberlin on September 21, 2006, 07:41:50 AM

   Here are some thoughts.
      I have completed some crude tennis ball testing, they are about 60% efficient and at 150 rpm on a 6 foot wheel the ball will rise 12 to 15 feet above the contact point.
   
   Dale


Hi Dale,
interesting concept.
Was this a typo or how high did the tennis ball rise when they are making contact with the lower
ramps ?

So does this only work at an optimal speed , so the centrifugal forces will help it ?

Many thanks.
Title: Re: Centrifugal gravity wheel
Post by: inroades on September 21, 2006, 02:39:52 PM
   Hello,
    The tennis ball testing was just releasing a tennis ball at rpm from a 3 foot lever on to a solid table about 10 inches below, I filmed this to see if and how fast the ball would return. At about 75 rpm the ball after contact rises faster than the lever that released it. at 150 rpm it is very much faster and will rise many (8 to 10 feet) above the table. When I drop a tennis ball it bounces about 60% of the released hight. I tried a super ball, they claim 90% that got pretty exciting, it bounced better but was uncontrolable.  I think this will be very rpm sensitive but with centrifugal force increasing on the square of rotational speed I think that there will be a window it will run in and I am guessing somewhere on the low end of 75 and maybe 180 to 200 top side.
   Thanks
   Dale
   
Title: Re: Centrifugal gravity wheel
Post by: inroades on September 22, 2006, 07:11:12 PM
    Hello Stefan
   I repeated some of the crude tennis ball testing yesterday, This time the ball was only about 40% (it is 40 degrees here now) It required 100 rpm on a three foot lever releasing to a platform 6 inches below to make the ball rise faster than the lever. The ball passed the lever that released it on the up side right before the 90 degree point.
    I have been focused on the timing between the release point and when it catches or passes the lever on the up side rather than the total height that the ball rises, however at 100rpm the ball climbed just a little over 9 feet above the impact area or 3 feet over the wheel.
  I hope that answers the question a little better.
   I have started a small prototype and have the axle, bearings and center hub complete for a 5 foot wheel.
    I would love the thoughts, advice,and counsel of the greater minds here.
   (thats a cry for help!)  :)
    Thanks
   Dale
 

Title: Re: Centrifugal gravity wheel
Post by: hartiberlin on September 23, 2006, 04:26:11 PM
Hi Dale,
can you post a few more (hand written, are okay) drawings ,
what you are exactly doing ?
It is not yet clear to me, what you really want to achieve.
Do you try to state, that the lower lever arm is able to push the ball
up into the direction of the axis with more more force or
does the tennis ball jump just by itsself higher up ?
Maybe you can also post a small video, if you have a videocam.
Many thanks.

Title: Re: Centrifugal gravity wheel
Post by: inroades on September 23, 2006, 05:54:46 PM
   Hello Stefan
    The idea is that the wheel will not work until it gets up to an rpm where centrifugal force overcomes gravity enough to lift the 12 o'clock weights rapidly into the stationery angled upper ramp where it converts the additional centrifugal force to rotory power in the wheel and the weight latches there in the outer position all the way down the power side to the 6 o'clock position.   At the bottom 6 o'clock position the weight is released again, basically slung towards the lower spring ramp. (kind of the David/Goliath sling effect) The weight stores a much greater force than its own mass in the lower spring, but the spring only has to return the mass of the weight. I was using the tennis ball to replicate the effect of the spring only.  My wife shot this video with our phone so it is not too good, I promised you crude and it is(fat guy chasing a ball) ;D. In the video it looks like I am throwing the ball but I am holding it between my thumb and finger and just letting go.
     I will work on a better drawing today.
   Thanks for your interest.
    Dale
Title: Re: Centrifugal gravity wheel
Post by: inroades on September 23, 2006, 09:56:13 PM
 Here is a picture I made in paint.
   Thanks
Title: Re: Centrifugal gravity wheel
Post by: FreeEnergy on September 24, 2006, 04:09:50 AM
Here is a picture I made in paint.
   Thanks

this picture answers a lot of questions! nice job.

it is like hartiberlin  has been saying for a long time now, to use springs.
Title: Re: Centrifugal gravity wheel
Post by: hartiberlin on September 24, 2006, 02:21:03 PM
Hi Dale,
thanks for posting the video and the new painting.
Looks promising.
Maybe can you try it with heavier balls ?
Maybe with steel balls or with a non compressable ball ?
Title: Re: Centrifugal gravity wheel
Post by: hartiberlin on September 24, 2006, 02:42:10 PM
Dale,
another question,
do you let go the weights just at 6 o?clock
and then they just slam into the ramp,
are then reflected by the spring and then lock again
nearer to the axis ?
This is an interesting idea !
But you have to make sure,
that the speed will not get slower, so if you release the weights at
12 o?clock and they fly out again, that they are able to hold the speed
of the wheel and don?t slow it down.
But when they are locked then again at the outer position, okay,
they have a bigger lever arm and then are able to turn the wheel
counterclockwise.
Title: Re: Centrifugal gravity wheel
Post by: inroades on September 24, 2006, 05:02:28 PM
 Hello Stefan
Quote
do you let go the weights just at 6 o?clock
and then they just slam into the ramp,
are then reflected by the spring and then lock again
nearer to the axis ?
   Yes that is the idea,the weights have wheels or trucks that they ride the ramps on,and my concern is the delay, friction and timing of this event. My hope is since centrifugal force doubles in relation to rpm that a window will open (I think higher rpm will favor this)when the Lower ramp angle, spring tension, and rpm can create power on the lower side.  Maybe it would work better if I allowed the spokes to hinge one direction at the outer hub just a few degrees so the wheel can rotate more freely during the 6 o'clock events (see picture). And then maybe I could tie the secondary power source to the wheel if needed.
         
Quote
Maybe can you try it with heavier balls ?
Maybe with steel balls or with a non compressable ball ?
      I did try using a Superball in a test and it was much more responsive and quick, I was not able to get it to bounce in the path that I could film it but wow much much better.
      I am not sure what will be the best weight size or amount of movement to allow in the prototype. I was thinking of using roller blade wheels and bearings for the weights. Do you see any application for permanent magnets?
  (maybe at the upper ramp)
    Thanks for your thoughts
      Dale
   
       
Title: Re: Centrifugal gravity wheel
Post by: inroades on September 24, 2006, 05:13:54 PM
  Thanks Free Energy
    I have a ton to learn about these programs.
    Dale
Title: Re: Centrifugal gravity wheel
Post by: FreeEnergy on September 24, 2006, 09:59:14 PM
it looks like it will work! we shall see.
Title: Re: Centrifugal gravity wheel
Post by: FreeEnergy on September 25, 2006, 03:40:15 AM
instead of having it role/ride the ramp, i think it would be better maybe if it just bounced off the spring like around 5 oclock or 5:30.
Title: Re: Centrifugal gravity wheel
Post by: inroades on September 25, 2006, 04:02:46 AM
  Hello
    Yes FreeEnergy I noticed in the tennis ball test that the release point needed to be at the 5 to 5:30 point to get the BDC impact and return. I believe that when the preload is set correctly on the lower spring ramp that the weight may only dwell there 3 to 4 degrees. Also it will depend on how far the lower ramp is below.  These are the details that are over my head and I just don't have the engineering background to understand. I believe in the concept due to many nights lost sleep but I don't know if I have the ability to give the monster life. ;D
   Thanks
   Dale