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Author Topic: Johann E. E. Bessler and his clues  (Read 26492 times)

Offline lumen

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Re: Johann E. E. Bessler and his clues
« Reply #15 on: November 29, 2014, 02:03:57 AM »
this is a quick test on the scissor thing it does work this is not even worked out properly knocked it up in 15 min but thanks for the feedback it helps and also after making this model I made a discovery even at the 3 o'clock position it will extend out to the full when let go with quit a bit of force.
and if you look at the movement the heavy weight only moves a few inches where the small end moves 6 or 7


View My Video
Dom444,

Not bad for a quick build.
The question remains, does the balance change from the pivot point and which direction?
 

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Re: Johann E. E. Bessler and his clues
« Reply #15 on: November 29, 2014, 02:03:57 AM »

Offline dom444

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Re: Johann E. E. Bessler and his clues
« Reply #16 on: November 29, 2014, 02:18:18 AM »
wont know that till i do the experiment but instinct tells me it will probably work if i build it properly balanced, and i need to test on one plank two oposing assemblies its the sum weight on each side from the axle that's important, i am thinking the larger weight being closer to the center axle even though it is heavy and displaced would have less gravitational influence than the end weight.
What also makes me think i am on the right track is Besslers wheel had 4LB weights on the end of the wheel not a very big weight for a 12ft wheel.
But would be consistent with this kind of arrangement.

Offline dom444

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Re: Johann E. E. Bessler and his clues
« Reply #17 on: November 30, 2014, 10:17:21 AM »
I made a new discovery today which kind of hit me I may or may not be right APOLOGIA  POETIC  XLVI is referring to
MT 138 all the elements of the verse appear to be in there which is the pic i posted beginning of this post.
if so it gives a description of the movement of his wheel.
 it has the flail (or peg),fresher B,anvil,the scholar i believe is the character on the right of C, the runners are there, the children with clubs D are  there ,the crab is the child's toy going to and fro, plump horses are the weights, A driver drives is the characters, The buyer buys are who he is selling to,the seer sees is himself seer is enlightened one the cat is D upside down with the tail hanging down, sulfur was melted and used like a glue for wood at the time, mercury was  used for tempering steel,  he is referencing this picture and there is more which i need to work  out and some i wont comment on, worth a look at.


Verse XLVI:

Those who are keen to ask questions should ask them of this little book.
Should anyone wish to speculate about the truth, let him just ponder on the rich pageantry of words which I now cause to shower down upon him!

For greed is an evil plant.
An anvil receives many blows.
A driver drives.
A runner runs.
The seer sees.
The buyer buys.
The rain drips down.
Snow falls.
The shotgun shoots.
The bow twangs.
A great fat herd of fat, lazy, plump horses wanders aimlessly.
The flail would rather be with the thresher than with the scholar.
Children play with heavy clubs among the broken columns.
Acrobats and shadow-boxers are as fleet and nimble as the wind.
The cunning cat slinks silently along and snatches nice juicy mice.
The dog creeps out of his kennel just as far as his chain will stretch.
He knows how to please by playing with his little toys and knick-knacks.
He wags his tail, creeps through the hoop and is rewarded with pats on his paws by the stiff fops who watch him.
A wheel appears on the scene – is it really a wheel, for it does not have the normal type of rim.
It revolves, but without other wheels inside or outside, and without weights, wind, or springs.
Seen sideways or full-face it is as resplendent as a peacock’s tail.
It turns to the right and to the left; it spins around in any possible direction, whether laden or empty.

All things belong to one of the three kingdoms (animal, vegetable, matter) and -
You have the physical evidence in front of you.
Without such things as sulphur, salt and mercury all things will soon come to a standstill –
The qualities of the elements are necessary to keep things going.
Saturn, Mars and Jupiter are ready to join in any battle.
Even the things we eat do not lose their elemental influence – for it spreads itself through every limb and sinew of our bodies.
A crab crawls from side to side. It is sound for it is designed thus.

Johann Bessler, Apologia Poetica (Kassel: self published, 1716-1717), verse XLVI, as translated and reproduced in John Collins, Poetica Apologia by Johann Bessler (pseud. Orffyreus) Edited and Published by John Collins (Leamington Spar: Permo Publications, 2004), p. 295 and 296
« Last Edit: November 30, 2014, 02:28:57 PM by dom444 »

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Re: Johann E. E. Bessler and his clues
« Reply #17 on: November 30, 2014, 10:17:21 AM »
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Offline dutchy1966

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Re: Johann E. E. Bessler and his clues
« Reply #18 on: November 30, 2014, 12:11:28 PM »
Hi Dom444,


I will have a look at your finding. Maybe it gives us some more information.


Regarding the gravity peg you mentioned, I'm not sure why you would need it at the 6 o'clock position.
As far as I can tell the scissors should stay collapsed anyway.
What might be needed is a system that prevents the scissors from starting to collapse between 3 and 6 o'clock and stopping it starting to expand between 9 and 12 o'clock.
Maybe a quarter circle guiding rail for the heavy weight can accomplish that. The heavy weight should be some kind of wheel that can run against the rail until it is time to expand or collapse... ( 6 and 12 o'clock precisely)


Hope you understand what I'm trying to say... :-)


Regards Dutchy

Offline dom444

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Re: Johann E. E. Bessler and his clues
« Reply #19 on: November 30, 2014, 12:28:45 PM »
Thanks dutchy i would hold of for the moment  its the first wheel i showed that i think is correct but not how i placed them with this new information i have just found if i am right he is cunning on how he presents it but still a few gaps that need to be worked out you have to put your mind to the 1700 and use there terminology for the time not easy to understand how they would think, But I do think he was spring loading the weights to shoot out that's his real secret and the extra motive force, as well as  from and the way the weights are arranged it is all in that picture look carefully, they would fire at the right moment.

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Re: Johann E. E. Bessler and his clues
« Reply #19 on: November 30, 2014, 12:28:45 PM »
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Offline dom444

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Re: Johann E. E. Bessler and his clues
« Reply #20 on: November 30, 2014, 10:53:42 PM »
I did some more research and i think the person on the left of C was known as a jack or knave like in playing cards. In the above passage the word should be jack fires not shotgun shoots some one didn't understand the word jack and substituted shotgun, as in this interpretation of the verse.

this is the other version:

Should anyone wish to speculate about the truth,
let him ponder the rich pageant of words
which I now cause to shower down upon him!

Greed is an evil root.
An anvil receives many blows.
A driver drives. A runner runs.
A seer sees. The buyer buys.
The rain flows. Snow falls.
The jack fires. The bow twangs;
a large herd of fat, lazy,
plump horses wanders aimlessly.
The flail wants to be with the
thresher, not with the scholar.
Children play among the pillars
with loud heavy clubs.
Acrobats and shadow-boxers
are as swift and nimble as the wind.
The cunning cat slinks quietly along
and snatches juicy mice.
The dog creeps out of his kennel
just as far as his chain will stretch.
He knows how to please by playing
with his toys and knick-knacks.
He wags his tail, creeps through the hoop,
and is rewarded with a pat on the paws
by the stiff fops who watch him.

Offline AB Hammer

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Re: Johann E. E. Bessler and his clues
« Reply #21 on: November 30, 2014, 11:38:26 PM »
dom444


Here is a design that I got out of "The Gentleman's Magazine"  1751 Shortly after Bessler's death and it was done by someone only known as Mr AB . Since we are dealing with scissor jacks and you have learned a bit of the dynamics of how they could be altered I figured I would show you another way.  The interesting thing about Mr AB is that his last initial is B just like Bessler and you need to find out what happened to Bessler's Brother.


Alan

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Re: Johann E. E. Bessler and his clues
« Reply #21 on: November 30, 2014, 11:38:26 PM »
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Offline dom444

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Re: Johann E. E. Bessler and his clues
« Reply #22 on: December 01, 2014, 12:09:49 AM »
that is interesting even has the lettering like Bessler on the wheel, the cables are interesting  because   with one part of this verse that is difficult to work out is to do with the dog on the chain.

found this on this wheel

http://books.google.com.au/books?id=zEpGAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA502&dq=self+moving+wheel&hl=en&sa=X&ei=kN57VLTlJ8mC8gWo1IGADQ&ved=0CFgQ6AEwBw#v=onepage&q=self%20moving%20wheel&f=false

page 502 does not work even in 1751 they worked it out  and the F's are actually s's
« Last Edit: December 01, 2014, 09:40:07 AM by dom444 »

Offline lumen

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Re: Johann E. E. Bessler and his clues
« Reply #23 on: December 01, 2014, 04:56:50 PM »
dom444
 
I would think that a scissor test for success would be to try to simply generate an unstable device.
Maybe start in the horizontal position and have the weight extend the scissors and cause the extended end to drop.
Once that occurs, the weight could pull on one leg of the scissors and cause it to retract only to repeat the process.
It may be possible to keep the activating weight nearly on the scissor pivot with some additional linkage.

 
It would only need to travel a small arc. If this scissors device could be made to be unstable and oscillate then that itself would be proof of operation.
 

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Re: Johann E. E. Bessler and his clues
« Reply #23 on: December 01, 2014, 04:56:50 PM »
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Offline dom444

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Re: Johann E. E. Bessler and his clues
« Reply #24 on: December 01, 2014, 05:21:47 PM »
i will tell you where i am at right now i need to make some models to test some configurations as time permits which i am hopeful of, i think i am on the right track but wont know for a while, but i can tell you i think he was using springs and i know why and i know how.
 and i am convinced even more as i research that my theory is correct, and that his wheel is a lot simpler than many think and i think i understand bessler better now.

Offline dom444

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Re: Johann E. E. Bessler and his clues
« Reply #25 on: December 02, 2014, 12:01:32 PM »
Here is an up date for ya I swear I have never read so much sh**t about Bessler as what i have come across on some sites and no wonder no one has cracked it in 300 years, from sacred geometry to all sorts of other crap like he was moving it with his mind, I feel for the man everyone has hijacked  his invention for there own cause, I know what he was going through.
one site has 100 pages of so much rubbish i think you would forget your own name after reading it, here is a heads up for ya he had 5 sets of opposing mechanism 10 weights on the perimeter of the wheel not 8 there where 10 pegs each mechanism had 2 springs,  and when you look at it side on it did look like a peacocks tail, and they where set up in layers  one on top of the other, this much i know to be true believe it if you like or not, also forget looking at his drawings of perpetual motion machines they will just confuse you as he intended, he hated scientists and that was to bait them he hid it where you wouldn't look, and no i don't have the whole thing but am a fair way there, there are subtleties to the mechanism you can only work out by experimenting.

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Re: Johann E. E. Bessler and his clues
« Reply #25 on: December 02, 2014, 12:01:32 PM »
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Offline dutchy1966

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Re: Johann E. E. Bessler and his clues
« Reply #26 on: December 02, 2014, 06:33:30 PM »
Hi Dom,


Would be nice if you could supply some links to where the correct clues/information can be found...

I would like to read it aswell.


Thanks!


Dutchy


Offline dom444

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Re: Johann E. E. Bessler and his clues
« Reply #27 on: December 02, 2014, 08:30:11 PM »
what i have found dutchy is that a lot of the sites want to make them selves to be the authority or the last word on Bessler they are the experts or so they think but there is a lot of disinformation and subtle omissions or errors that lead you astray, earlier in  this thread i said that I thought it was jack fires and not shotgun shoots that is a big difference which does not seam like much but puts things in a different context and changes how you view the text.

http://www.besslerwheel.com/writings/apologia.html

I have gone through many sites and compared many writings with some things i have found, and it is a bit like a detective story the pieces confirm each other
and you get a real picture of what was going on and you get a more complete picture.


http://quod.lib.umich.edu/e/ecco/004873234.0001.000/1:4?rgn=div1;view=fulltext   

      this is not so much useful to work out the wheel but gives you a feel for the negative oppressive environment Bessler was going through which explain his state of mind his hatred of the scientific community  and why he behaved the way he did.




 
http://orffyre.tripod.com/id41.html              DIALOGUES AT THE CASTLE OF WEISSENSTEIN

there he describes the wheel so a child can understand most people dismiss it as ramblings of a mad man funny that when you have  a bit of inside information it makes sens, and Bessler had a habit of calling the parts children broken pillars etc shows he formed a relationship with his machine as well as being cryptic not to expose it, after all the years of working on it.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2014, 04:25:17 AM by dom444 »

Offline norman6538

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Re: Johann E. E. Bessler and his clues
« Reply #28 on: December 03, 2014, 02:09:45 AM »
dom444


Here is a design that I got out of "The Gentleman's Magazine"  1751 Shortly after Bessler's death and it was done by someone only known as Mr AB . Since we are dealing with scissor jacks and you have learned a bit of the dynamics of how they could be altered I figured I would show you another way.  The interesting thing about Mr AB is that his last initial is B just like Bessler and you need to find out what happened to Bessler's Brother.


Alan


The problem with the attached drawing is the CG of the mass, What I see is bottom heavy,
Just like many other ideas I have tried. And I think Alan's idea is the CG of the mass is bottom 
heavy. This could be easily tested with a one foot ruler with holes in it to shift the length
and weight. When I look for a working wheel it must have most of the mast to the right or the left of the axle. That can be done with a horizontal slot but the stopper comes when it has to be reset back where it was to the normal CG of the mass.
But I still believe in the Bessler wheel.
  As some of you know I have a permanent magnet addiction and I have OU rom permanent magnets but not  yet enough OU to make it self reciprocate.

Norman


Offline dom444

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Re: Johann E. E. Bessler and his clues
« Reply #29 on: December 03, 2014, 04:23:43 AM »
well from what i know about bessler your on the money with that one Norman as a matter of fact it never cuts through the Axel at any point the mechanism's and weights  form a elliptical path around the axle as they move around it, and from what i can see the rim weights begin to lift at about
5 o'clock stay in that position held by the peg till reaches between 1 and 2 o'clock then the peg drops off, but here is the trick it could not happen if the springs did not play there part friction and centripetal force would not allow the peg to disengage, the rear counter weights throw it forward to the rim of the wheel with a thud which i expect is the imputes it picks up to continue rotating and gravity takes over.

Actually as i write this it just occurs to me i know where the extra force comes now, gravity creates an event going down the mechanism converts it to a equal and o posit  right angle force to the wheel adding to the rotation don't know if i explained it well but my head can visualize it.
But i still think that with out the pendulum to govern the speed Bessler's wheel would lock up and not keep going time plays an important roll when you are converting gravity.

Domenic

 

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