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Author Topic: Johann E. E. Bessler and his clues  (Read 26535 times)

Offline dom444

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Johann E. E. Bessler and his clues
« on: November 27, 2014, 12:16:08 PM »
I was hooked on his wheel about 20 years ago when i had read about it in a perpetual motion book but had no idea he had left clues  till this week
I know there have been a million ideas on how it worked and here is mine based on what he has shown us and it seems to fit his description rather well

first you must look at this clue i think he is showing us the secret to both his wheels here the one way early wheel and the one that turns in both directions

Clues to the Wheel's Design  Machine was set in motion by weights.
 - Bessler 
 
  Weights acted in pairs
 - Bessler 
 
  Weights gained force from their own swinging (or movement).
 - Bessler 
 
  Weights came to be placed together, arranged one against another.
 - Bessler 
 
  Weights applied force at right angles to the axis.
 - Bessler 
 
  Springs were employed, but not as detractors suggested.
 - Bessler 
 
  The machine's power was directly proportional to its diameter.
 - Bessler 
 
  Weights may have been pierced in the middle and attached by connecting springs (observer speculation).
 - Acta Eridutorum, An Account of the Perpetuum Mobile of J. E. E. Orffyreus, 1715 
 
  Weights were heard hitting the side of the wheel going down.
 - eyewitness accounts 
 
  Machine (Gera wheel) made scratching noises, as if parts or poles moved over one another.
 - eyewitness accounts 
 
  Weights may have been attached to movable or elastic arms on the periphery of the wheel (observer speculation).
 - Johann Christian Wolff, eyewitness account 
 
  Weights may have landed on planks/boards at right angles to the circumference of the wheel.
 - Johann Christian Wolff, eyewitness account 
 
  Weights were cylindrical.
 - Johann Christian Wolff, eyewitness account 
 
  About 8 weights fell during each revolution of the wheel, which took about 3 seconds. (Kassel wheel diameter ~ 12 feet)
 - Joseph Fischer, eyewitness account





When the oiled cloth was removed and left nude wrote Count Karl, he found himself gazing upon a very simple arrangement of weights and levers. He never disclosed the secret what he had seen. However, Karl did state to his ministers that he believed the wheel was a true perpetual motion machine and he was amazed that no one had invented a similar machine before Bessler.  He also stated that machine was so simple and easy to understand that a "carpenters boy" could build one after seeing inside the wheel.



Leibniz and his student remained confused about the source of motive power that moved machine. Orffyreus explained that by the grace of almighty he had conceived a system whereby the weights one side of the wheel were farther from the axle than the weights on the other side of the wheel, creating an imbalance which caused the wheel to rotate.  The secret laid in the ingenuity of the design by which weights on the ascending side of the wheel were prevented from following their normal path next to the rim.  Count Karl explained that small pegs, which swung back out of the way as the weight passed the zenith, blocked these weights. Again Karl assured Orffyreus not to disclose or use Bessler's secret until a sale had been finalised.

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Johann E. E. Bessler and his clues
« on: November 27, 2014, 12:16:08 PM »

Offline hartiberlin

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Re: Johann E. E. Bessler and his clues
« Reply #1 on: November 27, 2014, 07:20:23 PM »
Yes, that could it be.. !

Really bright ideas !

Can somebody wth WM2D or with a different 3D simulator try this please out !

Small tip, where he wrote PIVOT is the fixation to the wheel, so these see-saw type
devices strech their weights out at the right side of the wheel , so they turn clockwise !

So in these Pivot points they are fixed to the wheel !

Pretty simple, if this will really work ?

Regards. Stefan.

Offline AB Hammer

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Re: Johann E. E. Bessler and his clues
« Reply #2 on: November 27, 2014, 10:16:43 PM »
dom444

 Welcome to the forum. I see you are reading about Bessler. The simple designs you have shown are well know for most of us you have followed Bessler have tried them. Changing height for width as an old college would say. I myself have physically built the second one before and it just sat there. There is a trick to reading the toy page IMHO of course.  But it looks like you are on the Bessler path and it is an interesting one to follow.   just another note for you CF will give you trouble as it did myself. I spun the one wheel and all the parts just stayed out and then it came to a stand still.

Again Welcome to the forum

Alan

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Re: Johann E. E. Bessler and his clues
« Reply #2 on: November 27, 2014, 10:16:43 PM »
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Offline dom444

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Re: Johann E. E. Bessler and his clues
« Reply #3 on: November 28, 2014, 12:07:16 AM »
I think the trick is in the construction and how well the system is built in particular the peg he talks about and the placement  of that peg is important
and the other factor is the T pendulum he shows a lot of these system will not work because centripetal force  will lock everything up unless slowed down to a point where everything has time to work.
this point is often left out when replicating the wheel I have seen a lot of peoples efforts and I have tried a few my self  but this wheel as simple as it is needs the precision of a clock to work,  Bessler was also an apprentice watchmaker.

why is it when people replicate other peoples work they feel a need to change something the first time it is built we seem to find it hard to make it exactly like the original then if it works and you understand the principals then you can change it i have not seen one replication with the T pendulum yet including my self I am sure he doesn't just show it for window dressing but i think it plays a key roll and if implemented many other wheel designs could work as well.

Bessler said the T pendulum was there so it does not spin out of control he was not telling the truth it is there to slow the wheel down to the point where
the parts have time to work as well as add imputes to the turning wheel.

another point is selection of weights the scissor arrangement needs to have the weights selected carefully if you pivot it full extended at the point i indicate the smaller weight should balance with the big weight at the back. but because it will be extended to the edge of the wheel it  will give it a lever advantage over the center of the wheel (Axel), as i said the principal is simple but the implementation is the trick.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2014, 10:40:34 AM by dom444 »

Offline dom444

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Re: Johann E. E. Bessler and his clues
« Reply #4 on: November 28, 2014, 12:53:37 AM »
And about the clues the way i see them A is the side view E and shows up a lot in his pictures, you will also find the A's he often writes as a scissor including X's he is dropping a hint.

G is showing the peg the right side is sitting on one made up of B showing the timing

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Re: Johann E. E. Bessler and his clues
« Reply #4 on: November 28, 2014, 12:53:37 AM »
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Offline lumen

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Re: Johann E. E. Bessler and his clues
« Reply #5 on: November 28, 2014, 01:54:57 AM »
Maybe it might run if you could find a way to extend the linkage using the weight of the entire wheel instead of independent weights that will end up as a counter balance to stop the rotation.

Offline dom444

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Re: Johann E. E. Bessler and his clues
« Reply #6 on: November 28, 2014, 02:04:12 AM »
there is no question of it rotating I have not shown the peg or its position as i need a model to try it but the peg when it is at 6 o'clock and fully retracted to the center will hold it there till it passes 12 o'clock then releases it to extend to the edge of the wheel on the descending side as described by witnesses on besslers wheel, as i said the key is the PEG and the slowing PENDULUM not shown.

http://i60.tinypic.com/vsgq4p.jpg

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Re: Johann E. E. Bessler and his clues
« Reply #6 on: November 28, 2014, 02:04:12 AM »
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Offline lumen

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Re: Johann E. E. Bessler and his clues
« Reply #7 on: November 28, 2014, 03:08:20 AM »
there is no question of it rotating I have not shown the peg or its position as i need a model to try it but the peg when it is at 6 o'clock and fully retracted to the center will hold it there till it passes 12 o'clock then releases it to extend to the edge of the wheel on the descending side as described by witnesses on besslers wheel, as i said the key is the PEG and the slowing PENDULUM not shown.

http://i60.tinypic.com/vsgq4p.jpg

I did some calculations on this some time ago and found that multiple scissors also increase the leverage on the extending weight.
I was thinking that in the end it would be a wash on any gain for rotation. I hope I'm wrong about this.
Did you do any calculations yet?
 
At the time I was drawing up something for a simulation but quit after putting some thought into it. (maybe not enough thought!)
It's possible that the extension could offset the weight far enough to rotate the heavier weight doing the extending.
Even the single stage setup offsetting the weight further out on the wheel may provide more gain than the same weight moving the same distance but closer to the wheel center.

Offline ARMCORTEX

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Re: Johann E. E. Bessler and his clues
« Reply #8 on: November 28, 2014, 04:11:03 AM »
this is it, for sure. thx


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Re: Johann E. E. Bessler and his clues
« Reply #8 on: November 28, 2014, 04:11:03 AM »
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Offline dom444

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Re: Johann E. E. Bessler and his clues
« Reply #9 on: November 28, 2014, 05:40:14 AM »
I think the balance is very important as well as the scissor cross piece lengths Bessler seams to draw them with a longer cross pieces at the heavy weight end  going to smaller at the extension end could have a bearing on it and also don't forget to factor in the weight of the extension arm itself as it is fully extended, the calculation should be made from the axle to the small weight end, calculations are not my strong point but i understand the mechanics.
I think the aim is to have enough heavy weight to extend the arm with the minimum movement of the heavy weight, and i am also having ideas about the pegs if one side of the axle is fixed can put a small rod  or two  at specific points to set the peg and hold the arm closed on the ascending side and another to release at the descending side
that could be where the springs come into play to do with the setting releasing mechanism on the pegs.



(http://s14.postimg.org/rqlgkvjwt/Picture_012.jpg)
« Last Edit: November 28, 2014, 10:19:54 AM by dom444 »

Offline AB Hammer

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Re: Johann E. E. Bessler and his clues
« Reply #10 on: November 28, 2014, 03:02:04 PM »
@ Dom444

Here is a good lesson on scissor jack balances in a couple of picture.  You have better actions on the hammer toy design.


Alan

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Re: Johann E. E. Bessler and his clues
« Reply #10 on: November 28, 2014, 03:02:04 PM »
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Offline dom444

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Re: Johann E. E. Bessler and his clues
« Reply #11 on: November 28, 2014, 03:15:45 PM »
not much of a lesson you can see it is steel and just the 3 or so scissor links weigh more than the top weight let alone the end weight  I think the person that designed it needs a lesson in material choices and how balance works. showing a badly executed example of anything proves nothing.

Offline AB Hammer

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Re: Johann E. E. Bessler and his clues
« Reply #12 on: November 28, 2014, 06:14:21 PM »
Sorry dom444:

But all materials weights were considered for the test which leaves your observation lacking in fact. The other thing to consider is, that when a machine is made it is going to have to last a long time to be useful.  The point is from this test is that even though the larger weight is heavier than to be moved  weight including the jacks weight by more than 4 times. It still can not lift the smaller weight at the bottom back up. People have tried the scissor jack / storks bill and have learned more what cant be done with them than what can. Despite that I still use scissor jacks in some of my builds and look for new ways to use them.  So don't consider scissor jacks a waste of time for they are not. But your arrangement has been well tested except for adding the peg with it.

Alan

Offline dom444

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Re: Johann E. E. Bessler and his clues
« Reply #13 on: November 28, 2014, 10:05:48 PM »
I have been pondering the question of the scissor jack and like i said earlier Bessler always shows it with the first crossing of the scissor larger than the presiding one, have a look at his illustration i put up beginning of the thread,
 by the way the writing on his illustration says Children’s game(s) in which there is something extraordinary for anyone who knows how to apply them in a different way.
the one you showed is equal dimensioned all the way along, if you even move the scissor pivot point one centimeter or so  past the center point you get a lever advantage and if the proceeding one is now smaller again you get even more power by the time you reach the small end you get a very large  amplified force.
how do you think you can cut heavy wire with side cutters as an example, one of my favorite sayings is the devil is in the detail.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2014, 01:02:43 AM by dom444 »

Offline dom444

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Re: Johann E. E. Bessler and his clues
« Reply #14 on: November 29, 2014, 12:50:59 AM »
this is a quick test on the scissor thing it does work this is not even worked out properly knocked it up in 15 min but thanks for the feedback it helps and also after making this model I made a discovery even at the 3 o'clock position it will extend out to the full when let go with quit a bit of force.
and if you look at the movement the heavy weight only moves a few inches where the small end moves 6 or 7


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