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Author Topic: Simple Voltage Boost  (Read 8842 times)

Offline d3x0r

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Simple Voltage Boost
« on: November 17, 2014, 01:24:02 PM »
Falstad sim...

So I thought I had something unique.... but eventually managed to find similar enough parts to make it work and figure out the actual basis for it.
Simple 5V pulse input generates 18V...
am not sure how to tune it to get it more optimal...
or +/-2.5V pulse gets 18V in the experimental apparratus.

I was playing with zero inductors... like the ferrite thing on the ruslan/akula kacher... I have some other coils that can be reconfigured to be zero-induction coils... and turns out I can string as many of those as I like and there's no benefit.  *scratch that*  if i have none, the output is weak. 

I also had a ferrite toroid, wrapped with a bifilar coil, with a coil around the outside of the ferrite ring.  I shorted the end of the bifilar together, and thought it was giving a resonant signal to the outside winding... until I swapped another coil to put near the ferrite, and found if I removed that coil entirely the thing still worked... so there was 0 inductance on the front side of the cap... so it was just a capacitor to an inductor to ground.... and in simulations, it works.

60Hz square wave (sine wave works too , but not as well... since the current result is more triangular ... it would have to be a lot more inductance for sine wave to help it...  but even then, it's about the differential from the change that causes the kick...

.... tinkered with the sim some more, and 8Hz, 125mH, 3.5mF 5V gets 50V almost.... but the bigger the capacitor, the more current ... so it's current into voltage transformation


My bench I'm around 1.7Mhz, with a few plates of capacitance, or meter of wire coiled next to each other... and a few turns... of coil (like 8 or 9 around a the outside of a ferrite core; which doesn't help it much...


series resonance... resonant frequency calculator applies in this situation anyway...
I had tried to take the load back to ground; but it was working better across the capacitor... in the simulator I get one tiny spike of voltage/current to ground, it's smoothed going to the signal...


with a capacitance too big or a inductance to ground too big my little signal generator cannot maintain enough current to make it work... but a small current can be utilized at Mhz frequencies...




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Simple Voltage Boost
« on: November 17, 2014, 01:24:02 PM »

Offline MarkE

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Re: Simple Voltage Boost
« Reply #1 on: November 17, 2014, 02:02:29 PM »
There are basically three ways to boost a voltage source:

Capacitor / rectifier ladder style voltage multiplier.  Works best when the input voltage is much larger than the forward voltage drop of two diodes and the load current is light.

Forward transformer:  N:M turns output to input turns ratio multiplies the input voltage by N/M.

Flyback coil / transformer:  Current through a coil is interrupted and a high flyback voltage develops across the opening switch.  In a transformer configuration the flyback voltage is multiplied by the N/M output to input turns ratio.

The methods can be used alone or in combination, and clever circuits like Tesla coils capitalize on resonant tanks to store up large amounts of energy.

Integrated circuit capacitor voltage multipliers have been available for about 40 years that convert +5V into +/-10V, such as the ICL7660.  The down side of capacitor voltage multipliers is the high surge current on each switching edge.  Some series impedance from either a resistor that throws away power, or an inductor is often needed to keep the currents from getting out of control.

Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Simple Voltage Boost
« Reply #2 on: November 17, 2014, 04:32:59 PM »
I would include VRSWR (voltage rise through standing wave resonance, on a helical resonator) as perhaps a fourth class of voltage boost, somewhat distinct from ordinary resonance in a tank circuit.  The following paper by the Corum brothers is very informative.

Warning: math ahead, but you can skip over the deep stuff and just get to the conclusions:
http://hamwaves.com/antennas/inductance/corum.pdf


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Re: Simple Voltage Boost
« Reply #2 on: November 17, 2014, 04:32:59 PM »
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Offline ayeaye

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Re: Simple Voltage Boost
« Reply #3 on: November 17, 2014, 04:55:31 PM »
This supposed to be about overunity, so i don't understand why no one measures the input and output energy. I have seen youtube videos where they show voltage increasing, and they say it's overunity. Voltage increase is not overunity, at least not voltage increase itself. Such experiments may be useful for some other reason, but they are useless for overunity.

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Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Simple Voltage Boost
« Reply #4 on: November 17, 2014, 05:53:18 PM »
This supposed to be about overunity, so i don't understand why no one measures the input and output energy. I have seen youtube videos where they show voltage increasing, and they say it's overunity. Voltage increase is not overunity, at least not voltage increase itself. Such experiments may be useful for some other reason, but they are useless for overunity.

Exactly right. Voltage is not energy, current is not energy, power is not energy. Voltage amplification always occurs at the expense of current and/or power, and you can rearrange the terms voltage, current and power in that statement all you like and you will still not get more _energy_ out than you put in.

People often claim large overunity "COP" numbers by conflating _peak_ power levels with average power, or using voltage or current alone as their data. I have often offered my various devices for testing by the same methods some of these people use. By their methods, I have at least ten massively OU devices sitting on shelves and my workbench right now. Unfortunately for me, a "COP" of three thousand to one, like my TinselKoil IV can attain _using those methods_, still isn't enough to self-loop.

But as I have repeatedly stated, if you show me a device with electrical inputs and outputs that makes a _true_ "COP" of at least 1.3 to 1, I can show you how to self-loop it and run it without any external source of energy once it is started up. Guaranteed. But nobody will  take me up on this offer by sending me one of their claimed "COP > 7" or "COP 20,000" devices like we have recently seen touted on this forum. Why not? I know why, and so do you: their claims are false. And the claimants, most of them, know it too.

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Re: Simple Voltage Boost
« Reply #4 on: November 17, 2014, 05:53:18 PM »
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Offline ayeaye

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Re: Simple Voltage Boost
« Reply #5 on: November 17, 2014, 06:44:50 PM »
But as I have repeatedly stated, if you show me a device with electrical inputs and outputs that makes a _true_ "COP" of at least 1.3 to 1, I can show you how to self-loop it and run it without any external source of energy once it is started up. Guaranteed. But nobody will  take me up on this offer by sending me one of their claimed "COP > 7" or "COP 20,000" devices like we have recently seen touted on this forum. Why not? I know why, and so do you: their claims are false.
Self-powering, i don't think it's important, i think only the input and output energy is important. And yes, like the input and output energy during one minute, because power may not be constant. First it has to be sufficiently researched and measured, and only that is important for me. What concerns self-powering, then cmos inverters or something should be used for generating pulses, as all other ways of generating frequency take senselessly lot of energy.

But this, who claims that it can be self-powered, this is not how i take this. This assumes that people claim things, so that then it can be tested whether their claims are true. I don't think it should be about that, about claiming. We do experiments, get the results what we get, show the results. Then others use the work we did, and go further. This is how the research normally should be, i don't know why is it thought that it should be some treasure hunting game instead. Like, i don't claim anything, i did my experiments, and made the results available, trying to do that as well as possible. And giving information accurate enough so the experiment is repeatable.

Offline d3x0r

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Re: Simple Voltage Boost
« Reply #6 on: November 18, 2014, 05:49:45 AM »
It started as an entirely diffferent experiment, before tracing down what was making it work and simplifying it to this flyback sort of method....
turns out that the inductor is actually near zero...s o not sure where the inductance is coming from at this point...


was testing wave forms against a zero inductance thing... the ferrite core on the ruslan/akula device...  to see if it was some sort of pulse shaper... so waves become sharper... or what the deal was. 


the input voltage/current measured at the input is minimal... there's resonant points around it where the input power overall is more ... and this is a least at that point... which is why a kacher drive for it would be good...


but... it's a current limited input; so that was probably distorting the reality..


if one doesn't do the experiment, one doesn't know if it can be OU... if it's not documented or noted at all, then it might as well not be done.


the point wasn't really about the voltage boost effect... it was testing the zero inductors... which seem to be zero inductance in this regard...
with the current capacitor I'm able to remove them and have a similar output, so they have little effect as a whole...


a little puzzling why they affect the kacher frequency so much.


The 'collector' from vasmus' device is a similar sort of coil... trying to figure out some things about that... also the 'collector' wound for TPU...


Edit; later note Sim updated to closer resemble http://www.overunity.com/12736/kapanadze-cousin-dally-free-energy/dlattach/attach/144324/image//


more updates; tried to add resonant circuits to supply the current needed... but ended up with half wave resonances
« Last Edit: November 18, 2014, 05:44:32 PM by d3x0r »

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Re: Simple Voltage Boost
« Reply #6 on: November 18, 2014, 05:49:45 AM »
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Offline ayeaye

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Re: Simple Voltage Boost
« Reply #7 on: November 18, 2014, 07:15:42 PM »
Yes, i don't know about the coils with no inductance, a very ordinary coil does a lot. I don't even use any explicit external  power source, except that little which comes from mosfet leaking, otherwise switching alone is enough to cause voltage spikes. I think the simplest should be tried first, before the fancy bifilar coils, or whatever exotic coils there may be.

Oh yeah btw, i later measured the wire gauge of my magnet wire better, i had no sufficient skills of measuring that before. It really appeared to be 29 (i now wrote that in the description of my video too), so sorry for that. But TinselKoala anyway only had gauge 27 wire, so the coil became a bit too thick. But no problem, it worked, and now it is a much better coil, capable of much higher voltages.

Voltage spikes cause current, but often the circuits are such that they don't use that current. In my negative discharge experiment the capacitor and the diode seem to be able to capture that current. Capacitor alone may not be able to do that, because then the current may go back and forth, and all the energy is wasted.

Offline d3x0r

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Re: Simple Voltage Boost
« Reply #8 on: November 19, 2014, 02:03:10 AM »
Yes, i don't know about the coils with no inductance, a very ordinary coil does a lot. I don't even use any explicit external  power source, except that little which comes from mosfet leaking, otherwise switching alone is enough to cause voltage spikes. I think the simplest should be tried first, before the fancy bifilar coils, or whatever exotic coils there may be.

I like these coils...

Voltage spikes cause current, but often the circuits are such that they don't use that current. In my negative discharge experiment the capacitor and the diode seem to be able to capture that current. Capacitor alone may not be able to do that, because then the current may go back and forth, and all the energy is wasted.
current spikes cause voltage....
the voltage event is actually 45 degrees following the current change .... current spikes abuptly and sharply in huge amounts through the capacitors...


a low self inductance and large capacitance.... the smaller the indutance and larger the capacitance the wider the resulting pulse can be...


I'm not sure where the current spike is going.... added a huge choke to ground which cured the current surge... but that kills the resonant tank .... (was noting low peak voltage on the LC tanks...)



it's apparently very inefficient.


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Re: Simple Voltage Boost
« Reply #8 on: November 19, 2014, 02:03:10 AM »
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Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Simple Voltage Boost
« Reply #9 on: November 19, 2014, 02:54:15 AM »
Those coils sure are pretty.

Old Crystal Radios sometimes used "birdsnest" or basket weave coils that remind me of these coils.

http://crystalradiocoils.com/index.html


Offline d3x0r

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Re: Simple Voltage Boost
« Reply #10 on: November 19, 2014, 12:45:51 PM »
this does require a push-pull to get the voltage out...
a push only does not work.... it almost works with one side but not both.
(modify square wave to 2.5V, +2.5V bias) ... if the whole thing is biased +5 (0-+10) it also doesn't work...
so single 555 timer without divider is out.

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Re: Simple Voltage Boost
« Reply #10 on: November 19, 2014, 12:45:51 PM »
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Dave45

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Re: Simple Voltage Boost
« Reply #11 on: November 19, 2014, 01:53:05 PM »
Exactly right. Voltage is not energy, current is not energy, power is not energy. Voltage amplification always occurs at the expense of current and/or power, and you can rearrange the terms voltage, current and power in that statement all you like and you will still not get more _energy_ out than you put in.

People often claim large overunity "COP" numbers by conflating _peak_ power levels with average power, or using voltage or current alone as their data. I have often offered my various devices for testing by the same methods some of these people use. By their methods, I have at least ten massively OU devices sitting on shelves and my workbench right now. Unfortunately for me, a "COP" of three thousand to one, like my TinselKoil IV can attain _using those methods_, still isn't enough to self-loop.

But as I have repeatedly stated, if you show me a device with electrical inputs and outputs that makes a _true_ "COP" of at least 1.3 to 1, I can show you how to self-loop it and run it without any external source of energy once it is started up. Guaranteed. But nobody will  take me up on this offer by sending me one of their claimed "COP > 7" or "COP 20,000" devices like we have recently seen touted on this forum. Why not? I know why, and so do you: their claims are false. And the claimants, most of them, know it too.
Exactly right because the current is proportional to the electron flow used to create it, we need another electron source besides the battery.
There are electron sources all around us we just have to find a way to liberate the electrons and use them in our circuits,
If the electron creates pos current can we use the pos current to liberate and collect electrons.



 

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