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Author Topic: Permanent magnet force measurements  (Read 4110 times)

Offline 1+motors

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Permanent magnet force measurements
« on: November 15, 2014, 01:18:26 PM »
Suppose we have two identical permanent magnets. We install them at different positions relative to each other and measure the acting forces.

We want to find out what forces will act between the magnets when they are positioned arbitrarily relative to each other.

We change the angle between the magnets, move them horizontally and vertically. Once the magnets are at a position
we're interested in, we rigidly fix them, make a pause so that everything settles down, and take measurements.
Then we move everything to a new position, repeat measurements, and so on. Finally we'll have a big table describing
the forces for the two chosen magnets differently positioned.

Strictly speaking, you don't have to conduct such experiments in all cases. Everything depends on your problem and goals.

You can just write down Maxwell's equations and solve them for our magnets.  You will know the magnetic inductance at
each point and calculating any forces from that will be a purely formal exercise.  You can also describe the magnets in any
electromagnetic FEM simulation software and let it solve the same equations and compute the forces for you.

However, everything depends on your goals, and Maxwell's equations, while they apply with a tremendous success to a broad
range of electrical engineering needs, may not apply as well to your overunity research project. 

Classical electrodynamics is just a theory, and no theory can describe the nature completely.  For example, the attraction
between magnets is a little stronger than the repulsion (http://www.supermagnete.de/eng/faq/Is-the-attraction-between-magnets-as-high-as-the-repulsion).
Now try to verify this statement in a simulator, and it will say the attraction and the repulsion are equal in magnitude.
Why? Maxwell's equations are built for a uniform space, and the difference between the attraction and the repulsion
forces is explained at the level of magnetic domains in permanent magnets. And the necessity to account for the magnetic
domains, the structure of crystal lattice, and molecular properties of magnetic materials doesn't make us any happier, right?

For springs, we have Hooke's law. It's useful and usable from the engineering standpoint. It's simple, yet yields great results
for the linear portion of deformations and for widest variety of springs. For permanent magnets, we don't have anything like that.
Our choice right now is complex overunity-ignorant Maxwell's equations vs physical experiments.

But once we've measured the forces, we can even find highly accurate analytical expressions by curve fitting. Such empirical
expressions will be both simple and accurate enough for the overunity purposes. The experimental data can serve as a test
bench for different electrodynamic theories and simulation software. You will instantly know whether certain simulator is good
enough for your problem.

There are minor purely technical challenges to accurately measure permanent magnet forces in practice. Most force sensors are
one-dimensional, and magnetic forces act in many dimensions, and often create torques.  We want to separately measure all force
components, for which we have to isolate different degrees of freedom by using high quality linear guides. Permanent magnets
interact strongly when near each other, so we have to preclude significant displacements by using a rigid construct.  We have to
reliably fix the magnets before the measurement. We also have to accurately read positions. The magnets should only interact
with each other, which excludes the use of ferromagnetic materials in the vicinity of the magnets. And the force sensors should
not affect/be affected by the magnetic field, which requires to place them at a significant distance from the magnets.  Such
requirements call for a custom-designed test stand.

This is the experiment we crazily want to conduct. We're crowfunding for this right now.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Permanent magnet force measurements
« on: November 15, 2014, 01:18:26 PM »

Offline CANGAS

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Re: Permanent magnet force measurements
« Reply #1 on: November 16, 2014, 05:33:19 AM »
Interesting.

Quote
Classical electrodynamics is just a theory, and no theory can describe the nature completely.  For example, the attraction
between magnets is a little stronger than the repulsion (http://www.supermagnete.de/eng/faq/Is-the-attraction-between-magnets-as-high-as-the-repulsion).


I had concluded this on a theoretical basis, not involving geometry of molecules, roughly 15 years ago. (In all the excitement I lost count of the exact time myself. )

In another subsequent hypothesis, which DID involve geometry, I stumbled upon an asymmetry, much different from that which you have described,  which led to a very interesting basis for a Unified Field Theory. It has some resemblance to the Maxwell hypothesis which he abandoned as insolvable.

So, I might be able to CROWfund my research? Like you are doing?

Very interesting.   

Quote
This is the experiment we crazily want to conduct. We're crowfunding for this right now.




I need to get up a CROWfunding project myself and complete my hypothesis, instead of just leaving it over there behind the back burner any longer.


Thanx
CANGAS 95

Offline 1+motors

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Re: Permanent magnet force measurements
« Reply #2 on: November 16, 2014, 10:23:10 AM »
Quote
I had concluded this on a theoretical basis, not involving geometry of molecules, roughly 15 years ago. (In all the excitement I lost count of the exact time myself. )

This represents some interest, though not directly related to overunity. Did you publish this? Are there online references?

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Permanent magnet force measurements
« Reply #2 on: November 16, 2014, 10:23:10 AM »
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Offline CANGAS

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Re: Permanent magnet force measurements
« Reply #3 on: November 17, 2014, 05:03:31 AM »
This represents some interest, though not directly related to overunity. Did you publish this? Are there online references?

Quote
This represents some interest, though not directly related to overunity.

Likewise, show me how YOUR thread and posts are related to overunity.


Quote
Did you publish this?

As I previously plainly said, I had these concepts of mine LEFT BEHIND THE BACK BURNER for quite some time. Slang speech meaning it is incomplete. You would not expect me to publish it incomplete, would you?


Quote
Are there online references?

No.


Relevance to your thread is this: when I began to develop my concepts, I soon recognized that I needed to examine how magnetic fields of simple molecular situations should map. Doing that showed me need to, or, led to, my examination of magnetic fields in a more abstract way. Further abstraction revealed the key concept(s) I consider to be valuable.

I was interesting to see you being bogged down at what I found to be an intermediate step.

Somehow find the Maxwell paper in which he explored Gravity being explained by magnetic and electrostatic forces. It may be the same work which was belatedly discovered in 1948 and attributed to Heaviside. It might pursue the same path your curiosity is taking you, and might therefore be helpful to you.

Kind regards
CANGAS 96

Offline Low-Q

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Re: Permanent magnet force measurements
« Reply #4 on: November 17, 2014, 09:20:04 PM »
Suppose we have two identical permanent magnets. We install them at different positions relative to each other and measure the acting forces.

We want to find out what forces will act between the magnets when they are positioned arbitrarily relative to each other.

We change the angle between the magnets, move them horizontally and vertically. Once the magnets are at a position
we're interested in, we rigidly fix them, make a pause so that everything settles down, and take measurements.
Then we move everything to a new position, repeat measurements, and so on. Finally we'll have a big table describing
the forces for the two chosen magnets differently positioned.

etc, etc, etc
If you for some reason measure different force/attraction/repulsion on one magnet compared to the other, you have reached your goal of over unity.
But for as long those forces are equal, there is no hope over unity is within our reach.


Sorry. Maxwell are right.


Vidar

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Permanent magnet force measurements
« Reply #4 on: November 17, 2014, 09:20:04 PM »
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