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Author Topic: Pulse motor build off time.  (Read 83429 times)

Offline MarkE

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Re: Pulse motor build off time.
« Reply #165 on: December 13, 2014, 04:39:05 PM »

Hi All,

Just about done, boy this is a pulse engine/motor.


Spec:
Radial Pulse Engine/motor/generator
Input 12v@3a max (motor input), stall load 56w
Input 9v (micro controller)
8 coils 24 gauge at 100 ft each (2.567ohms)
PWM speed control
1 micro controller arduino 2560 mega
ECM reading/controls
Rotational 5 degree steps (72 steps per complete rotation)
Control firing power stoke on each piston coil 0deg(TDC) to 180deg(BDC)
8 led piston firing lights
RPM reading (0- 3600)
Output:
BEMF collector from 8 coils
Tommey it looks good.  I have a couple of questions:

How did you measure the input current and the stall load?  A stall load should be a torque.  The mechanical power is zero because at stall there is no motion.  The peak output power would be found by progressively loading the unit more and more and finding where the product of torque and speed is the greatest.  If the relations were linear then it would be 0.25*wNO LOAD*TSTALL.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Pulse motor build off time.
« Reply #165 on: December 13, 2014, 04:39:05 PM »

Offline TommeyLeeReed

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Re: Pulse motor build off time.
« Reply #166 on: December 13, 2014, 05:09:04 PM »
Hi Mark,

I only gave the true load when the motor is lockd up as the coil was on, in other words 12v/2.567 ohms would give me a stall load of 4.68a or 56w.

As far as working load, I'm still working on that when I run a generator for output reading.

Tom

Offline TommeyLeeReed

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Re: Pulse motor build off time.
« Reply #167 on: December 13, 2014, 05:18:43 PM »
Hi MCR,

My question is where are the meters for output?

You are showing input of power, but not the true input from power supply. PWM running coils will only show false readings in your volt/amp meters.

If you want real input of power you must use a cap and a resistor on input power before going through the pwm. The meter must show volt/amps at the load cap/res and then connect it to your motor and read it again.

Also you are not showing output on your meters, will you do real input vs output of power?

 :-\

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Pulse motor build off time.
« Reply #167 on: December 13, 2014, 05:18:43 PM »
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Offline TommeyLeeReed

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Re: Pulse motor build off time.
« Reply #168 on: December 13, 2014, 08:28:39 PM »
It's funny when builder claim low power input and when question  they react :'(

Why even show any meter input/output in the first place, it's like a magic trick with out any question... :o

I believe if anyone want to show meters, they need to show both sides of input vs output or else some people may think they have OU ;D

This build off is showing some tricks for kids ;D

Offline TommeyLeeReed

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Re: Pulse motor build off time.
« Reply #169 on: December 13, 2014, 08:36:59 PM »
Hi all,

This is my understanding of how a real pulse motor should work 8)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ol60QtAnxf0

Tom

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Pulse motor build off time.
« Reply #169 on: December 13, 2014, 08:36:59 PM »
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Offline MarkE

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Re: Pulse motor build off time.
« Reply #170 on: December 14, 2014, 02:38:50 AM »
It's looking good.

Offline MarkE

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Re: Pulse motor build off time.
« Reply #171 on: December 14, 2014, 06:18:55 AM »
It's even more funny how some peeps react when they build a PM for a PMBO saying that the way they build their PM is the only way to build one and even write about it in that manner on many forums...lol ::)
LOL...if you can't get your PM to run like mine do on that kinda input than you still have a long way to go... ;)

That's your believe thinking that people need to show meters on both sides of the PM or show anything for that matter..no they don't...it's their desicion to do so or not... ;) :P

Me doing magic tricks...lol...think i need to invite Stefan to see this one first hand...good thing you haven't seen my massive PM running at nano input some time ago...lol... ;D :o :P

Have fun... ;D
If someone knows what they are doing and keep the mechanical losses down, then sustaining the motor at speed can take very little input power.  Then it is just a matter of how fast they want to accelerate up to speed, or alternatively how much power they want to limit themselves to during the acceleration ramp.

About five years ago there was a scam artist by the name of Pete Sumaruck who got lots of attention for his "zero amp" motor "technology".  What he had done was modify an off the shelf AC motor controller's acceleration ramp to a very slow rate.  His demonstration was to hook up several sizeable AC motors using small gauge wires, and of course operate them without any loads.  I think Stephen Greer's group ended up giving money before the scam fell apart.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Pulse motor build off time.
« Reply #171 on: December 14, 2014, 06:18:55 AM »
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Offline MileHigh

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Re: Pulse motor build off time.
« Reply #172 on: December 14, 2014, 07:32:18 AM »
Hi all,

This is my understanding of how a real pulse motor should work 8)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ol60QtAnxf0

Tom

Very impressive looking Tommy.  I think the Las Vegas bookies have you marked as the winner.

MileHigh

Offline gyulasun

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Re: Pulse motor build off time.
« Reply #173 on: December 14, 2014, 01:00:41 PM »
....
So i do think that this one have some possibilities...meaning that if the core and the coils are say "tuned together" you can have more output and maybe have Lenz assist you instead of working against you...
With tuned i mean...have more eddy currents coming to the party and/or more capacitance in the coil...so many posibilities here and that's a good thing... :o 8) ;)
....

Hi Mister Caribbean Roots,

Thanks for your kind answers, I appreciate them.

Re on the several iron rods bent and taped tight for the ring core: Hopefully you used 'thin' rods and you isolated each rod from one other to minimize eddy current.   :-\
IF you do not happen to have thin rods for your next build, try to use garden wire instead which are PVC or enamel insulated and made of iron and thin enough like OD 0.4 to 0.6 mm or so, and just form the ring diameter you need by looping the insulated iron wires.  I know it may take quite a long piece of garden wire to buy and form the ring core with a decent thickness to fill up the ID of the coils but it may not be so expensive at hardware florist shops, Chinese merchants bring over also such wires for florists.
Also another possibility is to use welding roads as are used in Bedini pulse motors for the coil core, these should also be isolated from each other by painting them first. There is a recommended type of rod they use, I cannot recall it at the moment but it can be searched easily. Though these are more rigid to bend than the PVC isolated iron wires having an OD < 1mm, they may be worth using too for the much less eddy loss what thicker iron rods with OD > 4mm or higher may manifest.  But you may know all this...  8)

Okay on the LED lamps, I agree with all what you wrote, including the DC-AC issues. Driving individual LEDs by AC can be especially misleading because current can flow in the forward direction to get light at peak voltages exceeding the forward voltage threshold of the diodes, rendering LEDs a deceptive nonlinear load which actually 'eats' output during ,say, 25-30% of an AC cycle only...  :o ???

Yes, I meant on 'tangential' as you actually placed the coils, a good representation for this is shown by Naudin on the left hand side part of this picture versus the normal coil position on the left, here:
http://jnaudin.free.fr/images/magconfig.gif   from his site: http://jnaudin.free.fr/html/mromexp.htm  probably you have seen these. (By the way, the Mini-Romag generator is an interesting setup in itself, it is a pity nobody turns more attention to it.  ::) :o   )

Also, John Bedini showed a pulse motor with a single big coil also placed 'tangentially' to the rotor magnets, he coined the 'zero force motor' name for that, see this video as he himself demonstrated it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3kpDMMcNQxc
He claimed in the video the setup had no bemf, no Lenz effect and indeed at the input (small) current level involved, together with the huge coil size versus the relatively small inducing rotor magnets this sounds correct.  I am sure the input current would go up when the motor shaft were to be loaded mechanically, that would be a good test to show how Lenz-less the setup is.   :D

You mentioned 'tuning' in connection with eddy currents as a possible advantage if I undertood you correctly, this seems to be the only issue I have to ask how you mean.  Because I think that if there is any eddy current loss inherent in the ferromagnetic core of a motor or/and generator setup and when this loss becomes less when the generator is loaded (and as a consequnce the prime mover input power reduces and overall RPM increases),  THEN you simply 'tune out' the eddy current loss present in the core by the effect of the load.  I believe if there is such 'tuning out' benefit in setups with air core coils to get similar phenomena, that would be something really useful.  8)   I think any eddy current loss in a ferromagnetic core is unwanted, no need to build-it-in in advance and then trying to 'tune it out' to simply bring back a certain part of the input power you are already paying when the setup runs unloaded.   ::)

Thanks for your time again.

Gyula

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Pulse motor build off time.
« Reply #173 on: December 14, 2014, 01:00:41 PM »
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Offline TommeyLeeReed

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Re: Pulse motor build off time.
« Reply #174 on: December 14, 2014, 04:38:25 PM »
MCR,

One thing is clear to me is that you want it your way no, matter what.

Your comments on low power PM is like a the wind blowing smoke, it's only when you pull power from your so called efficient pm that really matters :o

You're right, you don't have to show any input or output of power, so why even think you can try to fool other with this clown act of showing super low input of power in the first place?

You're comment on RWG research asking others how to use hall effects just show me you know very little about electronics.

You're like a car salesmen, adding more pulse motors on RWG forum hoping to win a prize, when the last few ones did not work :o

I have better things to do then to add any more comments to you, good luck, and may the best integrity person wins!

 ;D

Offline MileHigh

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Re: Pulse motor build off time.
« Reply #175 on: December 14, 2014, 05:12:00 PM »
Gyula:

Quote
Also, John Bedini showed a pulse motor with a single big coil also placed 'tangentially' to the rotor magnets, he coined the 'zero force motor' name for that, see this video as he himself demonstrated it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3kpDMMcNQxc
He claimed in the video the setup had no bemf, no Lenz effect and indeed at the input (small) current level involved, together with the huge coil size versus the relatively small inducing rotor magnets this sounds correct.  I am sure the input current would go up when the motor shaft were to be loaded mechanically, that would be a good test to show how Lenz-less the setup is.

I find it really hard to find any good in John Bedini.  I remember that clip also.  Of course that motor doesn't act any differently than any other pulse motor on a fundamental level.  If he was a man of integrity he would actually explain how it works.  Of course you get the phony term "radiant energy" mentioned also.  All that you would have to do to bust all of that would be to connect a scope to the disconnected drive coil, and then take your hand and give the rotor a good spin.  Then of course you would see an AC waveform on the drive coil output showing that it can act in the other direction, like a generator.  If you can see the tell-tale sign of a generator, then you go back in the forward direction and voila you have a motor.

He shows a "no current" reading on an analog ammeter with a full scale range of 5 AMPERES.  What a joke.

It's just a flimflam act.

MileHigh

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Pulse motor build off time.
« Reply #175 on: December 14, 2014, 05:12:00 PM »
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Offline Pirate88179

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Re: Pulse motor build off time.
« Reply #176 on: December 14, 2014, 09:33:04 PM »
It's even more funny how some peeps react when they build a PM for a PMBO saying that the way they build their PM is the only way to build one and even write about it in that manner on many forums...lol ::)
LOL...if you can't get your PM to run like mine do on that kinda input than you still have a long way to go... ;)

That's your believe thinking that people need to show meters on both sides of the PM or show anything for that matter..no they don't...it's their desicion to do so or not... ;) :P

Me doing magic tricks...lol...think i need to invite Stefan to see this one first hand...good thing you haven't seen my massive PM running at nano input some time ago...lol... ;D :o :P

Have fun... ;D

But, can you run your motor from an Earth Battery?  I did this 5.5 years ago.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rauOlhNK0iY


Bill

Offline MileHigh

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Re: Pulse motor build off time.
« Reply #177 on: December 14, 2014, 09:51:33 PM »
MCR,

One thing is clear to me is that you want it your way no, matter what.

Your comments on low power PM is like a the wind blowing smoke, it's only when you pull power from your so called efficient pm that really matters :o

You're right, you don't have to show any input or output of power, so why even think you can try to fool other with this clown act of showing super low input of power in the first place?

You're comment on RWG research asking others how to use hall effects just show me you know very little about electronics.

You're like a car salesmen, adding more pulse motors on RWG forum hoping to win a prize, when the last few ones did not work :o

I have better things to do then to add any more comments to you, good luck, and may the best integrity person wins!

 ;D

Tommey, I can't disagree with you here.   On the other thread there was a discussion about the false concept of the "delayed Lenz effect" and then a discussion about the issues that need to be understood when you are trying to understand the input power consumption of a pulse motor.  It was sometimes technical and very informative.  Verpies contributed some very solid technical information along these lines just the other day in this thread.

Then we get a clown comment like this:

Quote
So true, sorry about my part...it's only distraction that is getting no where... (http://overunity.com/Smileys/default/rolleyes.gif)
Another thread won't do any good if you can't keep the distraction out of it... (http://overunity.com/Smileys/default/sad.gif)

Ho ho ho.... It's all just "distraction" and gets "no where."   Ho ho ho.... I would rather crank out another pulse motor and have a beer.  Measurements shmeasurements, who needs that distraction?

MileHigh

Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Pulse motor build off time.
« Reply #178 on: December 14, 2014, 10:59:48 PM »
Core effect pulse motors are very different from the "ordinary" electromagnetic attraction-repulsion type of PMs that seem to be the only kind anyone is talking about.
I posted this video of my Orbette 2.0 in another thread but maybe it belongs here.

The core effect motor works NOT by electromagnets attracting or repelling rotor magnets. It works by changing the permeability of the toroidal core by driving it to saturation with applied current. This _reduces_ the attraction of external magnets to the core -- either polarity, either current direction. It is _not_ an effect of direct electromagnetic attraction or repulsion.

This allows one to accomplish several things, for example the core effect motor coil position can be "tuned" to produce very little or no "generator effect", while not affecting the ability of the core to attract, or reduce attraction to, the rotor magnets.  This seems to be what you are talking about when you say "no Lenz effect".

Note that with a well-constructed _toroidal_ wound core, there is very little leakage of the electromagnetic field outside the core. Note also that the core effect does _not_ depend on either rotor magnet polarity or current polarity in the coil, since it is _not_ working by electromagnetic repulsion or attraction. You can use a DPDT switch to change the polarity of the current in a core effect motor and it will not affect the running at all. Of course there will always be some leakage, and stray fields from supply wiring, etc, so the "not at all" part is an ideal situation, but it is clear that the core effect motor does not behave anything like the ordinary electromagnetic attraction/repulsion type of pulse motor.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=90rMGmskqXQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iBS3tDyZEs8



If anyone is still wondering about Hall sensors, here are a couple of videos that may be helpful:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1GazsfQLu38

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wl8Ke62r468

Offline TommeyLeeReed

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Re: Pulse motor build off time.
« Reply #179 on: December 15, 2014, 01:51:04 AM »
Hi All,

This is my radial pulse motor generator entry.
 3 minutes is short time to talk about this motor, but they are the rules.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2bWRBHvb6mM

Spec:
Radial Pulse Engine/motor/generator
Input 12v@3a max (motor input), stall load 56w
Input 9v@ 40ma (micro controllers)
8 coils 24 gauge at 100 ft each (2.567ohms)
PWM speed controller
1 Arduino 2560 mega
ECM reading/controls
Rotational 5 degree steps (72 steps per complete rotation)
Control firing power stoke on each piston coil 0deg(TDC) to 180deg(BDC)
8 led piston firing lights
RPM reading (0- 3600)
Output:
BEMF collector from 8 coils


Good luck to everyone, some real good builds out there :cheerleader:
TLR
 

 

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