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Author Topic: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )  (Read 518116 times)

Offline Dog-One

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Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
« Reply #135 on: November 20, 2014, 07:23:32 AM »
Yes ketone, looking good.

Try to stay on point, you can always muck around changing things if the basic design doesn't pan out.


Looking forward to seeing this baby run.

Offline ARMCORTEX

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Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
« Reply #136 on: November 20, 2014, 08:46:37 AM »
Me and Syar were communicating via email.

He was saying to me that he would send right away the cad fils then dissapeared.

It seems he has dissapeared now.

Can anybody remind me, a big question to ask is how to make this ''40 poles'' , if we are to choose like this, not 4 poles, how does numbr of center magnets affect the poles. You science nerds will surely bring out a wonderful jpeg illustration...

Offline l0stf0x

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Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
« Reply #137 on: November 20, 2014, 11:22:42 AM »
I will convert this 3 phase alternator. Its almost new.

The position of the magnets is what is need to be solved.. I will post drawings of the possibilities..  I will try to make the center magnet stator that way to accommodate every possible combination.

All the rest is a mater of a precise machinery.

It will take some time for the magnets to arrive and also to construct the other parts.





Offline T-1000

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Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
« Reply #139 on: November 20, 2014, 11:52:14 AM »
I will convert this 3 phase alternator. Its almost new.

The position of the magnets is what is need to be solved.. I will post drawings of the possibilities..  I will try to make the center magnet stator that way to accommodate every possible combination.

All the rest is a mater of a precise machinery.

It will take some time for the magnets to arrive and also to construct the other parts.
The placement of magnets can be done on same way as cores in center of fan motor. The rest of things are same as in http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=2678.msg43230#msg43230

P.S> The holding metal for magnets in the center should be nonmagnetic to avoid weakening the magnetic field strength of magnets...

Offline l0stf0x

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Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
« Reply #140 on: November 20, 2014, 12:37:44 PM »
The placement of magnets can be done on same way as cores in center of fan motor. The rest of things are same as in http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=2678.msg43230#msg43230

P.S> The holding metal for magnets in the center should be nonmagnetic to avoid weakening the magnetic field strength of magnets...

magnet holder will be teflon and center stable bar will be aluminum (I hope)

Sure can be as core. just 2 poles NS. I ll test that option too.

 Also the magnets can be in two rows: 24 and 24 and be like:

nsnsnsnsnsns...
snsnsnsnsnsn...

or be 3 or 4 rows...


Syairchairun also states that he used 160 magnets 

""10*12*80 mm neody magnt, any 40 streets magnet NSNSNSNS""

so he probably use this 4 rows setup..

nsnsnsnsnsns...
snsnsnsnsnsn...
nsnsnsnsnsns...
snsnsnsnsnsn...

Who knows.. we need to test it by our selfs I guess




Offline T-1000

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Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
« Reply #141 on: November 20, 2014, 12:45:01 PM »
Also the magnets can be in two rows: 24 and 24 and be like:

nsnsnsnsnsns...
snsnsnsnsnsn...

or be 3 or 4 rows...


Syairchairun also states that he used 160 magnets 

""10*12*80 mm neody magnt, any 40 streets magnet NSNSNSNS""

so he probably use this 4 rows setup..

nsnsnsnsnsns...
snsnsnsnsnsn...
nsnsnsnsnsns...
snsnsnsnsnsn...

Who knows.. we need to test it by our selfs I guess
The number of magnets = number of coil cores (then multiply to cover entire heigh of coil cores). The neighborhood magnet in opposite polarity over circle and the most possible placement is in middle between 2 coil cores (due original alternator design) so the spinning core would extend magnetic field and shorten it to each coil core in the edge.

If the placement of coil cores are too tight the number of magnets= number of coil cores / 2...

The spinning iron core makes temporary magnet from itself when passes between magnet and generator coil under load. So making bloch wall right in the middle of spinning core should make less drag as possible.

Offline lumen

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Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
« Reply #142 on: November 20, 2014, 02:14:01 PM »
Hmm, complications.
Who would have thought there is so much missing from this simple concept.

Offline l0stf0x

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Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
« Reply #143 on: November 20, 2014, 02:18:10 PM »
The number of magnets = number of coil cores (then multiply to cover entire heigh of coil cores). The neighborhood magnet in opposite polarity over circle and the most possible placement is in middle between 2 coil cores (due original alternator design) so the spinning core would extend magnetic field and shorten it to each coil core in the edge.

If the placement of coil cores are too tight the number of magnets= number of coil cores / 2...

The spinning iron core makes temporary magnet from itself when passes between magnet and generator coil under load. So making bloch wall right in the middle of spinning core should make less drag as possible.

Exactly! Thanks T-1000, when I ll get close to that state, I ll post pictures of progress.

I plan to not use laminated steel as magnetic shield because is too much trouble and need lots of width for the screws. Actually I test laminated shield of 100mm width with magnet and soft steel of 5mm and the passing field was almost the same. (measuring the distance with attracted steel)The difference is less than 0.5mm.

So I plan to cut a peace of steel tube/pipe 5mm, longer than the lenth of the coil core complex but of exact diameter (leaving 1mm space from coil cores).. and open 4 windows
At the top and bottom of the pipe will be inserted the aluminum disks (on ball bearings) and secured with screws.

Offline FatBird

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Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
« Reply #144 on: November 20, 2014, 02:49:07 PM »
It looks like Prototypes could be OPEN FRAME just to try things out.


                                                                    .

Offline Cadman

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Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
« Reply #145 on: November 20, 2014, 03:46:58 PM »
l0stf0x,

Please do not confuse your 3 phase stator with Syair's 1 phase stator, the winding layout is completely different.
Your stator winding is designed for the number of poles on the original armature. You should design your new rotor to duplicate the original as much as possible, particularly the number of stator slots per pole (arc of the pole shoe). There is a specific design for your 3 phase alternator that demands a certain number of slots per phase per pole and the span on the stator coils is set for the pole arc and number of poles of the original armature. Using any other number of poles, or arc of the pole shoes, will give a poor output or no output at all.

This applies to any 3 phase generator/alternator being modified, including automotive alternators where you do not intend to rewind the stator.

The steel for the new rotor should be laminated electrical steel, non-oriented. Ordinary mild steel will not flip polarities quickly and completely enough.

Also the rotor poles should be magnetically isolated from each other, not connected with iron on the ends.

The magnetic circuit should travel in a loop from one pole through the stator, back through the next pole and return to the starting pole. That means steel at the core, not non-magnetic material.

Regards

Offline lumen

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Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
« Reply #146 on: November 20, 2014, 05:09:05 PM »
l0stf0x,

Please do not confuse your 3 phase stator with Syair's 1 phase stator, the winding layout is completely different.
Your stator winding is designed for the number of poles on the original armature. You should design your new rotor to duplicate the original as much as possible, particularly the number of stator slots per pole (arc of the pole shoe). There is a specific design for your 3 phase alternator that demands a certain number of slots per phase per pole and the span on the stator coils is set for the pole arc and number of poles of the original armature. Using any other number of poles, or arc of the pole shoes, will give a poor output or no output at all.

This applies to any 3 phase generator/alternator being modified, including automotive alternators where you do not intend to rewind the stator.

The steel for the new rotor should be laminated electrical steel, non-oriented. Ordinary mild steel will not flip polarities quickly and completely enough.

Also the rotor poles should be magnetically isolated from each other, not connected with iron on the ends.

The magnetic circuit should travel in a loop from one pole through the stator, back through the next pole and return to the starting pole. That means steel at the core, not non-magnetic material.

Regards

Cadman,
I agree with your assessment of the 3 phase stator but believe there are additional problems.
The principal behind it's supposed operation has never been determined.

Is it operating from flux switching or flux shielding. Simply rotating magnetized iron through the stator is no different than rotating magnets themselves and will perform the same. (drag with load)
In fact the alternator itself rotates only the iron rotor that has been magnetized and of course feels the drag with load.

If the concept of shielding was used then each stator pole should have it's own magnet for each winding and the shield could slide between them.
In this case the winding would only see one polarity and may be better to have two magnet for each winding shielding each at separate times to provide alternating fields.

If the concept of flux switching was used then each winding should have two magnets and have them switch at separate times to provide alternating fields also.

The big problem is the original design was never shown in any detail.

Offline Cadman

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Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
« Reply #147 on: November 20, 2014, 06:33:05 PM »
The big problem is the original design was never shown in any detail.

Exactly, but even his CAD drawing shows 4 pole shoes on each of the 2 stationary armatures. 162 magnets (2 he removed) with 5 rows per pole shoe (according to the drawing) with 4 magnets per row (according to Syair) = 160 magnets. I think the 40 poles he mentioned are these 40 rows of magnets.

But if Syair is to be believed then he did report success with his new version with the wound exciter coils too. 220V @ 55A.

And if he is to be believed then that style is the only one that could be used with a standard off the shelf stator (same number of poles as factory built) He did say that it took over 1 HP to turn the iron rotor (750 watts) and 320 watts for the exciter coils (80V @ 4A).

Offline lumen

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Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
« Reply #148 on: November 20, 2014, 07:21:17 PM »
Exactly, but even his CAD drawing shows 4 pole shoes on each of the 2 stationary armatures. 162 magnets (2 he removed) with 5 rows per pole shoe (according to the drawing) with 4 magnets per row (according to Syair) = 160 magnets. I think the 40 poles he mentioned are these 40 rows of magnets.

Yes, but that configuration would require 1500 RPM for 50hz output and what he shows and states in the video is that the generator requires only 100 RPM.
The cogging would also be only 4 major positions per rev and the video shows about 36 cogs per rev.

So the video does not match what is shown in the drawings.

Offline Cadman

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Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
« Reply #149 on: November 20, 2014, 07:31:53 PM »
So the video does not match what is shown in the drawings.

Right. The first video is supposed to be Ramadan's design, not Syair's. Personally, I am not going to waste my time trying to figure out what's inside Ramadan's motor. There is nothing to go on.

It's Syair's newer design that has my attention.