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Solid States Devices => solid state devices => Topic started by: pomodoro on November 08, 2014, 05:16:31 PM
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Guys this thread is about replicating Thomas Moray's oscillating tubes as well as other related technology which includes cold cathode discharge tubes such as those of the Correas. I have gathered much of the equipment to give this a good shot, but will need help for sure.
The thread will be about experiments and results but so much theory. Plasma physics is extremely difficult and way over my head. Initial experiments will focus on existing tubes such as neon globes, deuterium lamps, fluro lamps and hollow cathode devices. The behavior of these devices when pulsed in the abnormal glow region will be studied , in particular we will be looking at oscillations and negative resistance. When these have been understood completely, and if none of these tubes show signs of OU we will move on to making tubes similar to Moray and Correa. There is plenty to work on here so begin slowly and from real basics.
Step one . Equipment
I've finished building a 0- 3000V DC MOT based power supply.
Currently I am building a stacked MOSFET switch to pulse the tubes.
I already have a pulse/frequency generator to drive the MOSFET stack.
A basic digital scope, large resistors and the usual stuff most of us have.
I have plenty of those tubes mentioned above, Rotary vac pump, turbo pump,argon,hydrogen and helium.
Experiment 1. To study the current voltage curve of a neon bulb before it reaches arcing regime. This seemed easy enough but in my first sessions I managed to fry the pulse generator and blow resistors and fuses. The neon globe showed no arcing even with 500mA. Experiment will continue when the stack is finished.
Theory: Discharge tubes do not behave as linear resistors.
The current vs voltage curve will look similar to the picture attached pic1. (To be attached later). The small neon globe will not handle the large current required to reach the abnormal glow region and we can only study its behavior by pulsing the tube with high current. To be continued..
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You had best be careful with that MOT power supply!
You might find my "anatmosphere" videos of interest.
Here are a few:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pLCOBzuxIWQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=niFRhRgY_9M
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6CFqG1s1abQ
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You had best be careful with that MOT power supply!
You might find my "anatmosphere" videos of interest.
Here are a few:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pLCOBzuxIWQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=niFRhRgY_9M
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6CFqG1s1abQ
Very interesting, thank you. Great shots of the dome!
What gas is in the dome?
I couldn't quite tell but is there any current limiting for the dome or is the supply self limiting?
You definitely have enough current to reach the abnormal glow region on both electrodes as cathodes there even without a turbo pump.
Yes I need to be extra careful with the mot supply but I found it the simplest and most cost effective way to get smooth high continuous currents. I've kept the magnetic shunts in place for now and being variac controlled I try to keep the output as low as needed.
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Pomodoro,
do you know that Dr. Harold Aspden had a report on his website 1996 about the Correa-Device ?
http://web.archive.org/web/20110307044706/http://www.aspden.org/reports/Es8/Rep8.htm (http://web.archive.org/web/20110307044706/http://www.aspden.org/reports/Es8/Rep8.htm)
Kator01
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@Pomodoro:
Just air in the chamber, and the supply in those videos is current-limited at 6 amps input to the driver. The power arcs that form before the vacuum is low enough for glow discharge are very hot and I do not want to take the chance of cracking my glass hemisphere, which is half of a bathysphere designed and tested to great depths of water pressure.
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@Pomodoro:
Just air in the chamber, and the supply in those videos is current-limited at 6 amps input to the driver. The power arcs that form before the vacuum is low enough for glow discharge are very hot and I do not want to take the chance of cracking my glass hemisphere, which is half of a bathysphere designed and tested to great depths of water pressure.
Awesome, thanks TineslKoala, you have given me some good ideas already, that of using a glass dessicator.
kator, thanks for the link. I had come across an abridged version but yours is much better. Those Correa patents are rather long and need to be read many times over. The moray tube seem to me to be capacitor type cold cathode tubes that would need to be tested with rf only. In a quick preliminary test, I found that a few thousand volts from an oudin coil easily 'pass through' the quartz tube to the inner metal cylinder creating a type of brush discharge. This was done with air and no vacuum, trying to test Morays first type of sparking condenser.
Since I'm starting from scratch I'm not rushing into Correa or Moray but need to get all my facts and theories right, so absolutely any input is welcome. Here is one silly question, why does a neon bulb oscillate when it is in series with the power supply with a 10M resistor. Voltage of supply is held very close to extinction , there is no capacitor parallel to bulb. Oscillaton looks like a relaxation sawtooth. Voltage across neon bulb oscillates in the khz range. This is in the negative resistance region but its not a sine wave and also, lead inductance and stray cap should be in the MHz region?
This is not a trick question. The large 10M resistor converts the voltage supply into a current source. At 3000V there is still only 300uA flowing. When the voltage supply is turned off, its internal 4uF cap starts to discharge and the current through the bulb decreases slowly. Voltage across the bulb stays steady at about 70V all this time, while its in the normal glow discharge regime. Then it starts to rise slightly while the current still falls, hence the negative resistance, and the oscillations begin, then as the current drops further, voltage rises across bulb and bulb extinguishes. Frequency of these oscilations depends on voltage (or current). The oscillations are not visible but measured with the oscilloscope.
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Just a quick update on my progress, and to keep the thread alive while preliminaries are being sorted.
In my first post I mentioned starting at basics, well I learned what not to do and managed to trace a few current voltage curves, but nothing worth mentioning. I also managed to blow fets and the signal generator in the process. I've fixed everything and build a fast opto isolator mosfet driver so this won't happen again.
My first Correa tube is nearly ready for testing. Its not the same as in the patents, but was mentioned briefly in one of them and in some other literature from them. It is of a coaxial design with a copper tube cathode and a small aluminum rod in the middle acting as the anode.
The area of the anode is similar to that as utilized by the Correas ~128 sqcm. The reason for this design over the flat parallel plates found in the patent description is the following :
Aspen's notes on the tubes, and the possible importance of a smaller anode to cathode area ratio
Ease of manufacture
Ease of cathode cooling
Similarity to Clancy Britton's OU tube.
Aluminum was probably a better choice for the cathode as it has very low sputtering and a lower work function, but I was unable to find a suitable tube.
Torr-Seal epoxy was used to join the tube and rod to polycarbonate sheets.
Another change is how I will try to get OU out of it. The correas use a strange rectifying circuit to charge battery packs. To me it seems very inefficient and not the way to go. It also reminds me of bedini's pulse chargers, which as we know are easily criticized.
I plan on using the tube in a configuration similar to Duddel's singing arc (and poulsen's use of hydrogen and ethanol,) at audible frequencies, perhaps even lower.
Hydrogen seems the way to go but initial tests will utilize Argon.
I'll soon attach all the documents I've been reading and using as reference. Hopefully some of you will help me along. A few pics will also be attached once I've beautified the ugly tube.
Meanwhile, take a look at the attached pic as found in their patent. It is meant to capture the excess energy released as the tube is pulsed. Its not made very clear in the patent description, but from my experience the tube oscillates as part of a relaxation circuit made by the resistor feeding the tube and charging the capacitors parallel to the tube. The resistance needs to be small enough to enable the tube to stop conducting when the capacitors have discharged.The patent is US5449989.
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This is my attempt at a correa gas discharge tube.
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Sir
Respectfully ,This does work [Correa Bros.}
we have a fellow here that did a lot of _Correa_ experiments "Marco" [ XSEnergy, Turbo] and I absolutely believe his replication claims.
you should reach out for him he is a good Guy.
also we have a friend looking into similar _Excess energy_ Vacuum chamber claims By Arie De Geus
if you are interested I can post some info
thx
Chet
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Thank Chet, yes please send any info you have. The more the better.
Cheers
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its 3 AM here
I will do this Later [Arie De geus info]
also I will try to contact Marco [might take a few days] ,he will definitely assist a sincere replication
of Correa Bros.
thx for sharing your work
Chet
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Thanks Chet.
Ok meanwhile here are some of the docs for anyone to read. The patents are not posted here as they are easy to download and a re quite large.
There are patents US5449989, US5502354, US5416391 in order of importance.
These files are attached
4 is a description of the overunity system by the Correas.
5. Some strange letter by the correas against some other fellow.
6. Clancy Brittons patent, showing a coaxial device.
7. How Poulsen got RF oscillations from an arc, by improving Duddels design
8. How to obtain Oscillations from arc.
I'm currently trying to get some strong oscillations from a 2-3A DC carbon arc with a shunt LC combination. I'm following notes from item 8. its not as easy as it seems.....
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Chet, I think I found the Marco thread.
http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?PHPSESSID=892a6dd25b2f364141687c39d47a7e09&topic=17.0
The thread seems to end abruptly. I'd love to see those mentioned DVDs but unfortunately they don't seem to be available for free.
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Pomodoro
Still working on getting that info,it will be about 12hrs from now [I missed the time window today]
will keep you posted
Thx
Chet
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Yep, no probs.
Here is a vid of the tube being evacuated.
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Pomodoro
I like to speak with people about these things [projects] and finding the time can be a bit daunting[time zones and work schedules] sometimes I have to wait till the weekends with bigger time windows [for speaking]
But it will happen.
and this Arie de geus plasma project is a cool one,some of the claims have shown up in similar work
actual "working" claims.
I will be PM ing you once I get the info [patent] which I will post here.
all is open source ,just some things have to be presented properly and wisely.
thx
Chet
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Interesting thread, I have become very interested in ionizing gas as an electron source here lately,
Please continue.
http://electronics.howstuffworks.com/camera-flash1.htm
If you briefly apply a high positive voltage (electromotive force) to this plate, it will exert a strong attraction on the negatively charged electrons in the atoms. If this attraction is strong enough, it will pull the electrons free from the atoms. The process of removing an atom's electrons is called ionization.
This circuit has not been tested, just looking at the possible utilization of sourced electrons in a circuit.
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The few electrons accelerate towards the anode and liberate many more as they knock them off neutral gas molecules or atoms. Unfortunately these avalanche electrons dissipate all their accelerative energy when they hit the anode. The cathode gets much hotter as the heavier ionized gas molecules or atoms hit it. All you end up doing is passing a current through the gas and heating it. The battery supplies energy to all those electrons. Think of the vacuum tubes with a hot cathode spewing out electrons, because they aren't naturally energetic they are just there to help conduct through the vacuum but require a potential from a battery. When they hit the anode all kinetic energy is lost as heat and the battery discharges.
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The few electrons accelerate towards the anode and liberate many more as they knock them off neutral gas molecules or atoms. Unfortunately these avalanche electrons dissipate all their accelerative energy when they hit the anode. The cathode gets much hotter as the heavier ionized gas molecules or atoms hit it. All you end up doing is passing a current through the gas and heating it. The battery supplies energy to all those electrons. Think of the vacuum tubes with a hot cathode spewing out electrons, because they aren't naturally energetic they are just there to help conduct through the vacuum but require a potential from a battery. When they hit the anode all kinetic energy is lost as heat and the battery discharges.
Very informative thank you
Is the problem the anode material?
Maybe gold is a solution.
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Pomodoro
here is a link to the patent translation work Done by Peterae and itsu
on Arie De Geus
http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=2469.0 (http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=2469.0)
I will get more specific info later today on the plasma F experiment.
Lithium and Boron play an interesting part ,and I will be testing another
Lithium/Boron claim with fossil fuel [a De Geus claim].
thx
Chet
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Pomodoro
@Dave 45
attached below
A very simple process , Very safe to play with ,and several noted things to look for
during the Test procedure.
actually quite amazing .
thx
Chet
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Thanks Chet, that's an interesting and certainly controversial patent. I'd say that it would be quite a challenge to replicate because some details are not specified. In particular the resonant frequency, amperage and the sort of voltage required to initiate the transmutation. I would have thought that heat from a nuclear reaction at the electrodes would be enough to vaporize them in no time. Thanks and keep the info coming..
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I put the tube through some quick tests today. The diagram shows the connections.
Point X-X was either left open, shorted or had a 12 v relay coil attached. Power supply is DC 0-3000V not 300 as shown.
Argon bottle had a needle valve, which allowed pressure to be regulated by either blocking any argon or allowing some small amount into the system while the vac pump was constantly on. Pressure was regulated from 0.1 to 10 Torr.
When the relay coil is connected, the circuit is very similar to what the correas used in their very first patent, where pulses of the tube were used to drive a motor from a DC supply (US5416391). Instead of the motor's inductance I've put a relay which opens and closes as the pulses discharge.
Above 1 Torr arcing was the preferred method of discharge. Below 1Torr normal glow discharge, where only part of the cathode glowed, and abnormal discharge,where all the cathode was glowing, predominated. Pulses occured as the capacitor achieved breakdown voltage and the argon gas conducted, enough to cause an abnormal glow discharge but not an arc.
Next step would be try to detect these high energy negative spikes the Correas found when a discharge occurs. I need to do more reading for a few days.
Enjoy the video, showing the argon pulsing and the relay buzzing. The frequency increases as the current is increased.
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Here is a quick update showing part of the setup for studying the Correa tube patents. I'm going to follow what they did closely. The glass dome is where all the action will take place. Aluminum electrodes will be placed in there under low pressure argon and will be subjected to pulsed abnormal glow discharges. Before the experiments begin a pdf will be posted explaining the Correa patents in basic terms for any beginners wishing to follow the experiment. The patents are very descriptive and seem to give out most of the detail in full although some claims or descriptions don't quite make sense or seem wrong. - just as in most most patents.
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@pomodoro
If you are doing electron tubes, you might want to look to the following JLN link;
http://jlnlabs.online.fr/mahg/
The construction of the MAHG tube itself is relatively straightforward and the COP input vs. output energy gain
is substantive without going over. :-) I'd like to know if you are doing anything with MAHG. I've just noticed that
the experimental energy levels are within range of model Stirling engine/generators.
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In these plasma tubes there is something called space charge. I suspect excess capacitive coupling is caused by
the existence of space charge. That is what inhibits easy use of plasma fusion.
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@pomodoro
If you are doing electron tubes, you might want to look to the following JLN link;
http://jlnlabs.online.fr/mahg/ (http://jlnlabs.online.fr/mahg/)
The construction of the MAHG tube itself is relatively straightforward and the COP input vs. output energy gain
is substantive without going over. :-) I'd like to know if you are doing anything with MAHG. I've just noticed that
the experimental energy levels are within range of model Stirling engine/generators.
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In these plasma tubes there is something called space charge. I suspect excess capacitive coupling is caused by
the existence of space charge. That is what inhibits easy use of plasma fusion.
Thanks for the link , it is definitely something I would be interested in replicating without a doubt; for more reasons than one. I think I may have come across that tube some time ago, but must have forgotten about it. I probably didn't have the gear back then to be able to attempt a replication. Now that I do, it will be next on my list, after the Correa tubes.
I had actually read the Langmuir arrticle by Moller ( http://www.gifnet.org/articles/Langmuir%20&%20Atomic%20Hydrogen.pdf (http://www.gifnet.org/articles/Langmuir%20&%20Atomic%20Hydrogen.pdf) ) just a few days ago, after enjoying some great videos from the 1940's on youtube, regarding atomic hydrogen welding.(Part 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uZwYMyHlWXk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uZwYMyHlWXk) ).
In his PDF, Moller wrote " one edition of Van Nostrand’s Encyclopedia of Science it was stated “Hydrogen molecules dissociate to atoms endothermically at high temperatures (heat of dissociation about 103 cal/gram mole) in an electric arc, or by irradiation” ....” the hydrogen atoms recombine at the metal surface to provide heat required for welding.”
What is surprising here is that the actual energy value needed for the dissociation of the hydrogen molecule is given, but the calorific value for the recombination of the atoms into molecules is strangely omitted.From Langmuir’s experiments and findings we know that the minimum calorific value for the recombination of atoms was agreed to be in the region 90.000 cal/gram molecule. In other words we have an input energy of 103 cal/gram molecule and an output energy of 90.000 cal/gram molecule. In conventional science this seems to be violating the law of conservation of energy."
So Moller claims that about 1000 times more power is released when two hydrogen atoms combine to form a diatomic hydrogen molecule, compared to the energy required to break the diatomic molecule into the atoms. I will now give you the reason why I dismissed this claim. First of all, Moller uses only one reference, an encyclopedia, which is a generic science one, not a book on hydrogen. Mainly though, there is a small difference in writing the word calorie or cal, which makes a massive difference. Writing the word as Calorie or Cal gives it 1000 times the value of writing it as calorie. So 103 Calories/gram = 103,000 calories per gram. I don't have a copy of the encyclopedia Moller mentioned, but it is possible that either the article forgot to add the capital C or that Moller did not know of the difference. Secondly, if so much heat were released from recombination, compared to what was required to split the molecule, as soon as one molecule was split, the excess heat of 1000x would cause nearby molecules to split, initiating a chain reaction, which we know does not happen.
So the MAHG is a brilliant experiment to replicate because in theory it should NOT work! If it does work, well you guys will be the first to know and I will gladly eat my words. If, on the other hand, I am very definite that I carried the simple experiment out correctly and there is no COP>1 then it would make me suspicious of anything ever claimed by these well known chaps involved with the MAHG.
So thanks again, I think this Correa stuff will keep me busy for a few months and hopefully more if they end up working. I'll be trying hydrogen in these tubes as well, lets see what it does in there.
The Correa patents are long and hard to understand when first read, but essentially all that happens is that a new type of discharge has been found by them. The over unity comes from a discharge in the negative resistance region just as the tube is about to arc. The tube is not allowed to arc, and the cycle repeats itself. Its not simply about pulsing the tubes in the abnormal glow region. These new discharges are localized, just like arcs but are wider and conical in shape. Thats all there is to it.
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The system is now up and running.
A video is attached which shows my version of the correa tube pulsing. Under the glass dome are two Aluminum plates separated by 5cm. They are connected to two terminals under the small table. The vacuum pump (just the rotary, no turbomolecular) draws vacuum from underneath the small table creating an adjustable vacuum between .01 to 1 mbar under dome. An adjustable power supply is used to supply a voltage to the plates through a high voltage and high wattage 3.3k resistor. A capacitor is in parallel with the tube. Its a very simple circuit as shown in the picture.
No readings were taken as the setup was simply used to see if it worked. I found it quite amazing when the blue glow engulfed the cathode and spread through the dome as the pressure was lowered. Whether we find OU or not this experiment is worth doing just for fun!
I took a video in the dark, to show you guys what it looks like when the capacitor has charged up to the breakdown voltage. The video shows the discharge at at the sub 1mbar range. At such a pressure, the plate reaches the abnormal glow region first (all this means is that the whole plate is covered with a glow) and then, what looks like a reddish vacuum arc, discharges the rest of the charge. The oscillations are sped up by increasing the power supply voltage and hence the capacitor charge time. With less vacuum, no glow is seen , only an arc discharge. The first serious step will be to measure the important I/V curve of the tube by measuring the tube voltage drop as the current is increased, at the same identifying the different types of discharge.
In the Video below, the cathode is the plate on the left. Although it seems like it was glowing all the time, it actually fully extinguished before glowing and arcing in the next cycle.
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Pomodoro,
please be careful because of X-Rays which might be generated.
The following video is from a Austrian Website and shows the relationship of the state of vaccum ( turbo-molecular-pump is heard) and generated X-ray radiance indicated by a geiger-counter.
As the vaccum is increased the discharge-light decreases down to zero while the x-rays increase to such a level that the alarm is set off by the geiger-counter
http://www.hcrs.at/VIDEOS/GEISSD.MPG (http://www.hcrs.at/VIDEOS/GEISSD.MPG)
note that this tube is run by 20 kV but it is the state of the vacuum which is one important parameter for generating x-rays.
Kator01
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pick your poison; 8)
PHOTON ENERGY to attenuation length Weblink;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X-ray#mediaviewer/File:Attenuation.svg
BTW, Pomodoro, I believe you mentioned that the abnormal glow discharge region was trapezoidal in shape.
Something to think about; is that "rays" (not saying what kind) can produce some peculiar
displays as rays are often emitted from tiny point sources, while light is often a wavefront.
So it is worth looking at the geometry of peculiar displays. Same, if display differs
in intensity from a straight inverse R^2 decrease.
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Thanks kator, that is an informative little video. I will stick my geiger counter next to the dome for the next run just in case. I don't think I'm in any danger as the gas breaks down at less than 1000V and the power supply maxes out at 3000. Mscoffman, after the air run, I tried one with argon. At first I though it was an optical illusion from the glass, but the plasma spreads out from the cathode spot into a cone shape by the time it hits the anode. What was surprizing were the undulations you can easily see. Unfortunately my knowledge of plasma is very limited and I don't as yet know what it means. In the Correa Patent 5,416,391 he mentions "The pulsed AGD (abnormal glow discharge) is only sustainable when the intensity of the supplied current is greater than that needed to rapidly saturate the plates but not so much as to setup VAD (vacuum arc discharge), the result being the development of auto-electronic emission with its associated cone-like discharge and a residual faint glow of the entire cathode."
To me it sounds like what is shown in the picture? The BW picture is by the Correas.
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I've attached the basics regarding the Correa technology. If you're interested in following this thread but have not learned about gas discharges before, please download it and have a read. Its only a few pages and is not difficult to read. if I've made any errors please let me know. Once I'm sure that its all is fine I will post it up on Scribd. Other documents with more detail will follow. The next one will focus specifically on the patents and other documents from Correa.
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Attached is a very good description of the Correa Invention from Infinite Energy magazine. It offers quite a bit more info that you cant find in the patents. Enjoy!