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Author Topic: bedini, the daftman SS charger & MHOP  (Read 17625 times)

Offline qtrhack

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bedini, the daftman SS charger & MHOP
« on: November 04, 2014, 11:09:31 PM »
very new to this board and hope to find some guidance.  while i understand the arguments being made on other threads regarding the claims being made by certain parties and the sale of ebooks - i find it ironic that there are more than a few ads on this site with links to the sale of the material with this forum seemingly so opposed to the claims.

i for one am thankful for the bedini information that is out there - not so much for it's claims - but as an introduction to into electronics and at the very least getting me to experiment while learning.  i have successfully built a bedini wheel and am now looking to expand into other directions.  the next project i was going to take on was the daftman's SS charger:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0fMEhR9V0qw

in his video he states that there is a 'bedini' component but for the most part the **pulse** is controlled by a 555 timer.  again being new to all of this doesn't mean a whole heck of alot but hope to learn.  while reading some of the threads and communications over the past couple of days i was directed to tinsel koala's & mile high's MHOP.  i believe i will start with the daftman's setup first since that is basically daftman-by-numbers (attached) and tk's schematic doesn't digest well with me 'right now' since it's like translating a foreign language.  however my question to the list is there any similarity between the daftman setup and MHOP?

looking to learn and get my hands dirty - any guidance would be appreciated.  thx

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy


Offline MileHigh

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Re: bedini, the daftman SS charger & MHOP
« Reply #1 on: November 05, 2014, 04:49:42 PM »
A regular Bedini motor, the MHOP motor, or the Daftman 555-based coil pulser are all essentially the same thing.  All that they do is energize a coil and then when current is flowing through the coil they switch off the supply battery, and then the coil discharges its stored energy into a target charging battery.  That's it, there is no "technology" per se.

This is a basic basic electronics function:  What happens when you put a voltage source across an inductor?   What happens when you remove that voltage source from an inductor?   What is an L/R time constant?  What is the L/R time constant when I energize an inductor and how do I calculate it and how do I see it on the scope?  What happens when the coil discharges, it's similar to an L/R time constant, but in this case the "R" has been replaced by a battery.  If an inductor is a current-based device, how do you relate that to the voltage across it?  How does an inductor work in what is called a pulse circuit?

So before you even build anything, my suggestion is to go online or buy some books and learn all that you can about inductors and how they work when you energize them with current flow, or when they discharge into a load.  My advice is to spend a month researching and learning.  Then when your 555 circuit finally energizes the inductor, you will know what to do with your scope leads.

There is nothing "magical" about a Bedini motor or a coil.  Bedini and Aaron and Peter have spun this all up and created a cottage industry of mostly deluded followers.  All three of them will never tell their target audience how a coil really works.  You can pay $500 and go to a three-day conference and they won't explain to you how a coil works.  Instead, they will pitch the discharging coil as "radiant energy" and that's a lie.

This is basic Electronics 101, and if you are starting from scratch and you want to do it right you will spend at least a month teaching yourself about electronics including transistors as switches, and coils and capacitors.  If you actually know what to expect before you build your circuit then when you do build and test it you will understand what you are doing and you will understand what you see on your scope.

MileHigh

Offline qtrhack

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Re: bedini, the daftman SS charger & MHOP
« Reply #2 on: November 05, 2014, 05:52:10 PM »
A regular Bedini motor, the MHOP motor, or the Daftman 555-based coil pulser are all essentially the same thing.  All that they do is energize a coil and then when current is flowing through the coil they switch off the supply battery, and then the coil discharges its stored energy into a target charging battery.  That's it, there is no "technology" per se.

This is a basic basic electronics function:  What happens when you put a voltage source across an inductor?   What happens when you remove that voltage source from an inductor?   What is an L/R time constant?  What is the L/R time constant when I energize an inductor and how do I calculate it and how do I see it on the scope?  What happens when the coil discharges, it's similar to an L/R time constant, but in this case the "R" has been replaced by a battery.  If in inductor is a current-based device, how do you relate that to the voltage across it?  How does an inductor work in what is called a pulse circuit?

So before you even build anything, my suggestion is to go online or buy some books and learn all that you can about inductors and how they work when you energize them with current flow, or when they discharge into a load.  My advice is to spend a month researching and learning.  Then when your 555 circuit finally energizes the inductor, you will know what to do with your scope leads and what to look for.

There is nothing "magical" about a Bedini motor or a coil.  Bedini and Aaron and Peter have spun this all up and created a cottage industry of mostly deluded followers.  All three of them will never tell their target audience how a coil really works.  You can pay $500 and go to a three-day conference and they won't explain to you how a coil works.  Instead, they will pitch the discharging coil as "radiant energy" and that's a lie.

This is basic Electronics 101, and if you are starting from scratch and you want to do it right you will spend at least a month teaching yourself about electronics including transistors as switches, and coils and capacitors.  If you actually know what to expect before you build your circuit then when you do build and test it you will understand what you are doing and you will understand what you see on your scope.

MileHigh

thanks - that's why i'm here - to learn.  do you have any suggestions on starting points for learning all that i can about inductors and how they work when i energize them with current flow, or when they discharge into a load?  alot of information out there and any guidance would be appreciated.  thx

just as an fyi - i've already started the daftman project.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: bedini, the daftman SS charger & MHOP
« Reply #2 on: November 05, 2014, 05:52:10 PM »
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Offline MileHigh

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Re: bedini, the daftman SS charger & MHOP
« Reply #3 on: November 05, 2014, 06:02:44 PM »
I don't have any specifics for you.  I was told the web site "All About Circuits" is a good one but I don't know what level they expect the user to be at.  This is the information age, you just have to do the searching.  Honestly my advice is to stay away from any stuff that you find from a Bedini group.  If you see references to "radiant energy" for when an inductor discharges you should consider that to be junk.  You have to learn how filter the junk information from the real thing.

Have fun with your build, there is no reason not to dive in right away either.  The most important thing is to not lead yourself down a garden path.  Aaron does not understand how an inductor works after 15 years of playing with Bedini motors, you don't want to get "stuck" like that.  For sure there is an incredible amount of legitimate information about electronics out there.

MileHigh

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy


Offline qtrhack

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Re: bedini, the daftman SS charger & MHOP
« Reply #4 on: November 05, 2014, 06:04:06 PM »
This is a basic basic electronics function:  What happens when you put a voltage source across an inductor?

i will start learning by exploring the questions you asked in your initial response. i found the following:

http://electronics.stackexchange.com/questions/19863/inductance-and-kick-back-voltages

Quote
...from a circuit point of view you can think of a inductor as having current inertia. The bigger the inductor, the more inertia the current has.

When you apply a fixed voltage accross a inductor, the current builds up linearly. If you were then to short out the inductor so the current could circulate, it would do so forever if the inductor were perfect. Real inductors you can buy are made from wire, so have some finite resistance. The current times that resistance builds up a reverse voltage that slows down the current. But since the reverse push is proportional to the current, not fixed, the current decays exponentially instead of in a linear ramp if the current was fixed.

Actually inductors have been made from superconducting material, and they really do circulate current forever if the whole loop is superconducting.

If you can picture a inductor providing inertia to current and therefore how a fixed voltage causes the current to linearly ramp up, it's time to consider what happens when someone tries to suddenly interrupt that current. Think of trying to instantly stop a moving mass. Two things will happen. First, it won't stop instantly. Second the mass will create a great deal of force against whatever is trying to stop it. The inductor will do the same, but here force is voltage. The faster you try to stop the current, the more the inductor will push back with higher voltage.

But you say, a switch stops the current instantly when opened. Even if a switch were perfect and could do that, there would still be some point at which the contacts just barely separated. The inductor doesn't have to create much voltage for the current to arc between the contacts. Once a arc is formed, it's easier to keep it going at greater distances. That's because the air you see light up as a spark has become a plasma, which conducts electricity fairly well. So the switch contacts may have separated, but are now still connected by a plasma arc "wire". It does take some voltage to keep this arc going, which pushes backwards against the inductor current, which causes the current to decrease.

Eventually there won't be enough current to keep the arc going, and the switch is finally completely open. At that point most of the energy stored in the inductor has been spent, and the little that's left charges up the inevitable parasitic capacitance that always exists accross the inductor. Now you have a L-C tank circuit that will oscillate back and forth for a while. The little remaining energy is dissipated by the resistance of the wire in the inductor as the current sloshes back and forth thru it. The oscillations die down, and everything is finally truly off to the extent you can measure or care about.

This arcing accross switches is very real and a problem for switches and relays. This is one reasons relays wear out and often have different ratings for inductive loads. Every arc will damage the switch a little bit, which is considered in the lifetime cycles rating of the switch or relay.

Transistors can also be used to switch off inductors quickly. In fact, this is the basis for the common boost converter switching power supply topology. By charging up a inductor with current and then deliberately trying to switch it off quickly, you can harness the fact that the inductor will make a higher voltage for you than you started with.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: bedini, the daftman SS charger & MHOP
« Reply #4 on: November 05, 2014, 06:04:06 PM »
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Offline ayeaye

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Re: bedini, the daftman SS charger & MHOP
« Reply #5 on: November 05, 2014, 06:13:34 PM »
I started from this Bedini circuit, but without a trigger coil, and switched by pulses from some pulse generator. Because all that motor thing, i don't see that it does anything more than it generates pulses. Yes it somewhat adjusts to the load, but this may be good when using batteries, not capacitors as i did, and it does not necessarily adjust the right way. And i got no overunity, only some 80% unity. This may be more, because my circuit was not exactly perfect, but likely not much more. Yes it is higher than 50% when you charge one capacitor directly from the other, but there are other circuits for that, and i don't see any other reason why this is good for.

But then with a modified circuit, i got an effect, which looks like overunity, see my thread "Negative discharge effect" below here. This is a very simple circuit, which essentially has only 4 components. If you can take the pain and rip a deflection yoke core from some old crt monitor or crt tv, then it would be great if you replicate the experiment. This core is also useful for many other experiments, because a good coil with high inductance can be made with it. Especially when you do again the oscilloscope measurements which TinselKoala did when he replicated that circuit. What is important is also to measure the current with the oscilloscope, what is its direction and when it starts to rise, this would say a lot about what happens there. I would be thankful if you do that or anyone does that, as i have no oscilloscope.

They say radiant energy, no i don't think so. But when doing experiments with magnet motors i found, that there is a path which a pole of a magnet can go through, without repulsion, so this may explain it. It is not enough for continuous rotation though, so don't waste your time with magnet motors. And the same should be true about electrostatic field. But in general, magnetic field is not symmetric, that is it is not a sphere, and every asymmetric field can do work.

Offline MileHigh

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Re: bedini, the daftman SS charger & MHOP
« Reply #6 on: November 05, 2014, 06:16:31 PM »
Quote
i will start learning by exploring the questions you asked in your initial response. i found the following:

That was a 100% legitimate answer, so that is a good start.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: bedini, the daftman SS charger & MHOP
« Reply #6 on: November 05, 2014, 06:16:31 PM »
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Offline qtrhack

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Re: bedini, the daftman SS charger & MHOP
« Reply #7 on: November 05, 2014, 06:32:36 PM »
That was a 100% legitimate answer, so that is a good start.

so am i correct in visualizing this is like water (charge) flowing through a hose (inductor)?  the flow causes inertia and if it is all the sudden stopped at the end there is a pressure build up that backflows through the inductor?  just trying to visualize something on a macro scale.

i am also assuming that the hose/inductor has resistance in it and depending on the size and quality/composition of the 'hose' will determine how much momentum is possible, is that correct?

also - do you have any advice for scopes?  i have seen the mini ones are those good/acceptable?  are there any that have interfaces with computers?

i promise not to bombard the board with posts - maybe once a day with stuff i learn from the questions you've asked.

Offline MarkE

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Re: bedini, the daftman SS charger & MHOP
« Reply #8 on: November 05, 2014, 08:51:48 PM »
so am i correct in visualizing this is like water (charge) flowing through a hose (inductor)?  the flow causes inertia and if it is all the sudden stopped at the end there is a pressure build up that backflows through the inductor?  just trying to visualize something on a macro scale.

i am also assuming that the hose/inductor has resistance in it and depending on the size and quality/composition of the 'hose' will determine how much momentum is possible, is that correct?

also - do you have any advice for scopes?  i have seen the mini ones are those good/acceptable?  are there any that have interfaces with computers?

i promise not to bombard the board with posts - maybe once a day with stuff i learn from the questions you've asked.
For a reasonable 2 channel USB scope up to 10MHz the Hantek 6022 is hard to beat.  http://www.hantek.com/en/ProductDetail_2_153.html  You can buy one for well under $100.  Then you have your whole PC screen and capture capability, plus a reasonable set of functions, and a 16 channel logic analyzer.  There is a lot of bang for the buck there.

Current through an inductor is analagous to a mass in motion.  Where the kinetic energy in a moving mass is: 1/2mV2, the energy in an inductor's magnetic field is:   is 1/2LI2.  And just as it takes force and time to speed up or slow down a moving mass, it takes voltage and time to increase or decrease the current through an inductor.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: bedini, the daftman SS charger & MHOP
« Reply #8 on: November 05, 2014, 08:51:48 PM »
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Offline ayeaye

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Re: bedini, the daftman SS charger & MHOP
« Reply #9 on: November 05, 2014, 09:12:08 PM »
Some say usb scopes are not real scopes, and are not by far as fast as they are said to be, thus not really an option. I don't know but, search some more. You may also try to use the computer's sound device for oscilloscope, like xoscope in linux does that, and its two channel, too. For that one needs only two resistors, and two diodes. Resistors for voltage divider, and two opposite ordinary diodes in parallel, this restrict the input voltage to the range where the diodes don't yet conduct, which is 1 v, something. So that's just a matter of time and effort, costs nothing. Using the computers line in input for anything else than sound is not a good idea though, it is like an emergency when nothing else is an option.

I personally think that the crt mini analog scopes are the best cheap option. Not these digital pocket oscilloscopes, which i think are rubbish. At least they are real scopes, and every scope can be used, no matter what frequency or whether it has one channel or two. It's just my personal opinion, but i'm by far not an expert at all, i have no scope at all, i rather think what scope to get to myself.

Offline TinselKoala

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Re: bedini, the daftman SS charger & MHOP
« Reply #10 on: November 05, 2014, 09:52:21 PM »
1. The "solid state charger.pdf" link does not work for me.

2. Sound card oscilloscopes will not be adequate for general electronics use. They are essentially toy programs, useful if at all only near audio frequencies to make squiggly lines out of audio input. Most of what is of interest in many electronic circuits happens waaaay faster than a sound card can sample.

3. I have recommended that Hantek scope to people who are wanting a basic scope on a budget. For under 100 dollars you get the scope, with software that has better math capability than my old Link DSO, and cables, power supply for the scope and two reasonable probes. If I had the money I'd buy one myself.

4. Do not waste your time on a single channel oscilloscope unless you have some specific, dedicated purpose for it. You don't generally just want to look at a single signal but rather the response of one signal to another signal. If you want one trace you can always turn the other one off.

5. The oscilloscope is the King of test equipment and is the basis of any serious or halfway serious electronics workbench. Determine your budget, add a few dollars and buy the best scope you can with the money. Don't forget probes, as surplus scopes may not automatically come with probes.

6. You can get a seriously fine used analog scope for what you will pay for a new bottom-end, standalone DSO. Stick with brand names: Tektronix, HP/Agilent, Philips, etc. for the analog kit. Look on EBay.

7. Some Atten DSOs have proven to be less than accurate at higher sensitivity settings. 

Good luck!

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: bedini, the daftman SS charger & MHOP
« Reply #10 on: November 05, 2014, 09:52:21 PM »
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Offline qtrhack

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Re: bedini, the daftman SS charger & MHOP
« Reply #11 on: November 05, 2014, 10:14:37 PM »
1. The "solid state charger.pdf" link does not work for me.

try this: http://www.daftman.000a.biz/images/DSSC.pdf


Quote
2. Sound card oscilloscopes will not be adequate for general electronics use. They are essentially toy programs, useful if at all only near audio frequencies to make squiggly lines out of audio input. Most of what is of interest in many electronic circuits happens waaaay faster than a sound card can sample.

thanks!!

Quote
3. I have recommended that Hantek scope to people who are wanting a basic scope on a budget. For under 100 dollars you get the scope, with software that has better math capability than my old Link DSO, and cables, power supply for the scope and two reasonable probes. If I had the money I'd buy one myself.

will look into this. thx

Quote
4. Do not waste your time on a single channel oscilloscope unless you have some specific, dedicated purpose for it. You don't generally just want to look at a single signal but rather the response of one signal to another signal. If you want one trace you can always turn the other one off.

5. The oscilloscope is the King of test equipment and is the basis of any serious or halfway serious electronics workbench. Determine your budget, add a few dollars and buy the best scope you can with the money. Don't forget probes, as surplus scopes may not automatically come with probes.

6. You can get a seriously fine used analog scope for what you will pay for a new bottom-end, standalone DSO. Stick with brand names: Tektronix, HP/Agilent, Philips, etc. for the analog kit. Look on EBay.

7. Some Atten DSOs have proven to be less than accurate at higher sensitivity settings. 

Good luck!

and thanks again!!  love your vids!!

Offline MileHigh

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Re: bedini, the daftman SS charger & MHOP
« Reply #12 on: November 06, 2014, 08:40:25 AM »
I haven't looked at any USB scopes online in years.  I was impressed with the Hantek units, they looked like the real thing.  In the past I have always regarded USB scopes to be chintzy and yucky.  What a surprise!  10 MHz bandwidth around here is more than enough.  I would buy two.  I saw an optional box to fully synchronize two digitizers.  Plan B would be to have no synchronizer and then have a three-channel scope by sharing a common channel across two acquisition modules, which would be very cool, and still cheap.

Note the crunching:

Quote
Vpp, Vamp, Vmax, Vmin, Vtop, Vmid, Vbase, Vavg, Vrms, Vcrms, Preshoot, Overshoot, Frequency, Period, Rise Time, Fall Time, Positive Width, Negative Width, Duty Cycle

I wonder how sophisticated the analog triggering is.  I wonder if you can trigger on a logic boolean function or on a (boolean AND rising or falling edge.)  That would be fun!

Why isn't there a differentiator and an integrator function?  I think that would be so cool.  I would have a blast with those functions.  Of course if you are a spreadsheet guru you could go crazy and really do some sophisticated signal processing.  It would be so neat to see the waveforms all over-sampled and filtered to turn them into very high resolution waveforms.  (I am probably being dumb, just use MatLab?)  You could give the display an "analog scope feel."  You capture a waveform and then in a few seconds a beautiful high-resolution oversampled waveform is displayed on your 4k monitor, with all the stats and math functions and derived waveforms in all their high resolution glory.  The wise would say with a DSO the live display is nice eye candy but what is much more important is the captured waveform in memory.

Gawd, you could plot the magnetic flux waveforms inside the guts of the QEG.  A friggin' MRI scanner.  lol  Team Blundell needs these things!

Offline TinselKoala

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Re: bedini, the daftman SS charger & MHOP
« Reply #13 on: November 06, 2014, 12:00:42 PM »
Silly! Team Blundell know that you need seventy-five thousand dollars in test equipment to show that a QEG is overunity, because that's what HopeGirl told everybody. A hundred dollar DSO just won't do, at all. Got to have a Tektronix four-channel DPSO and a two thousand dollar HV probe for it before you can even _begin_ to measure a QEG!

Offline synchro1

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Re: bedini, the daftman SS charger & MHOP
« Reply #14 on: November 06, 2014, 03:13:56 PM »

@MileHigh,

"All three of them will never tell their target audience how a coil really works.  You can pay $500 and go to a three-day conference and they won't explain to you how a coil works.  Instead, they will pitch the discharging coil as "radiant energy" and that's a lie".


Coils such as the Tesla series bifilar may be considered as two coils. What you fail to tell us is how counter flowing currents can generate "A" vector potential" consisting of gravlty waves fashioned by Lorentz electron collisions.

 

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