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Author Topic: Charging 12V Battery with 10V Power Supply  (Read 17732 times)

Mancha

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Re: Charging 12V Battery with 10V Power Supply
« Reply #15 on: November 05, 2014, 09:17:56 AM »
Hey mancha what type of 12volt battery are you charging

Hi Profitis,
You can charge any type of  12 V LEAD battery with 10 V RMS AC Power supply.
For demo I charged  Car Battery 12 V 55 Ah
All the Best,
Milan

Mancha

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Re: Charging 12V Battery with 10V Power Supply
« Reply #16 on: November 05, 2014, 09:53:25 AM »




When you leave me out of the loop because I cannot pay for faster computer system performance, that means that I am being considered 2nd class.

Considering me 2nd class means that you (generically speaking) consider yourself better class than me, therefore the reference to the word "hubris".


Cangas,
Seems that I made you upset without knowing you. and knowing your problems which are real.
I have  my real problems as well, but I did not attack you back even you started with statements which are not nice  to me.
Now you are continuing with getting wrong conclusion about me, without knowing me by saying "means that you (generically speaking) consider yourself better class than me".
The only what I can tell you back is DO NOT TRY TO MAKE CONCLUSION ABOUT  OTHER PEOPLE ON THAT WAY, BECAUSE  IT COULD BE WRONG.
Let's shake hands  and calm down.
All The Best,
Milan

profitis

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Re: Charging 12V Battery with 10V Power Supply
« Reply #17 on: November 05, 2014, 10:43:30 AM »
@mancha you can charge any battery with slightly less volts,AFTER the battery is totaly flat,UP TO A POINT. eg...Pb + 2SO4(2-) + 4H+ + PbO2 >< 2PbSO4 + 2H2O so the equilibrium shifts to the right while discharging and Vout drops over time and curves downward as we all know then when you shove a 10v onto it in reverse the v-slope now curves up again up to exactly 10v worth of nernstian re-concentration. Did you flatten the bat entirely down prior to recharge and did you measure 12v across terminals after recharge.socket wall ac to dc rectified current will also have peaks of v in the pulse-cuves above what is actually shown on a regular v-meter I think.

profitis

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Re: Charging 12V Battery with 10V Power Supply
« Reply #18 on: November 05, 2014, 10:51:45 AM »
Electrolysis is a different ballgame ,you can get electrolysis at under 1.23volt but it has to be cyclical bursts of charge or slow-rate continuous charge also due to nernstian changes at electrodes surfaces

Mancha

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Re: Charging 12V Battery with 10V Power Supply
« Reply #19 on: November 05, 2014, 11:54:02 AM »
Electrolysis is a different ballgame ,you can get electrolysis at under 1.23volt but it has to be cyclical bursts of charge or slow-rate continuous charge also due to nernstian changes at electrodes surfaces
My first project (long time a go ) was  electrolysis with  voltage under 1 V. It is possible with loosing anode . If anode is made by oxygen inert material in that case  the cell  under 1.23 V will act like  capacitor.
Take Care,
Milan

profitis

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Re: Charging 12V Battery with 10V Power Supply
« Reply #20 on: November 05, 2014, 03:43:22 PM »
Ah yes I see you know these secrets too.reminds me of those guys who recently announced usage of ions (silicotungstate) to undergo oxidation state change inplace direct gaseous evolution.I'm still trying to get my mind round your underpotential battery charger thing, you will get a faraday of deposition of lead from the bottom of the cells discharge curve climbing up until a point where you reach the 10v counter-zone..and then?dam mind-boggling

Mancha

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Re: Charging 12V Battery with 10V Power Supply
« Reply #21 on: November 05, 2014, 07:03:48 PM »
Ah yes I see you know these secrets too.reminds me of those guys who recently announced usage of ions (silicotungstate) to undergo oxidation state change inplace direct gaseous evolution.

After gave up from loosing anode in my  1 V electrolysis project, I tried to change approach. I said to my self "why not lose solution instead loosing  anode ?"  Then I made my first big mistake in my research work. I was thinking that hydrogen peroxide is  answer for that, just unstable. I spent  too many working hours to make it stable without making  gas detection. I was upset by myself when I have found that there is no hydrogen at all. Just decomposition into oxygen and water vapor ;D
So..we have to have that kind of mistake.
All The Best,
Milan

mscoffman

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Re: Charging 12V Battery with 10V Power Supply
« Reply #22 on: November 05, 2014, 10:31:07 PM »
Mancha,

I think you are making a mistake with the 10.5 VAC transformer charging the battery. You generally can charge a battery
which has a voltage below it's maximum but the charging voltage always must be above the batteries current voltage. If you
hook a lower voltage source up to higher voltage battery you will force reverse current backward through the lower voltage supply
either blowing fuses, burning it out or folding it back.

The reason you are seeing some charging with the configuration of the 10.5VAC rectified supply is that a transformer is measured
in AC RMS voltage which is de-rated  .707 * volts(peak to peak) from the peak AC voltage so that means that the voltage
in total is about 14.8VACpk-pk = 10.5VAC RMS.  The diode blocks the lower AC voltages of the AC from being overridden by
the battery so that there is no backwards discharge flow (see above). So the battery is only conducting (recharge current) near
the peak = hence the altered AC power factor. These repetitive pulses are what is called PWM pulse width modulation so you have
only a small percentage of full current flowing that the AC line would be capable of for a short sub cycle period. This is what is
causing the slowing down of charging. Since you are being billed for less current by your utility meter is costing you less per unit
time but more units time should cause you to pay the *same* for this type of charging as the faster type.

I recommend the you get an oscilloscope and AC variac and you can see what the conduction charging pulse looks like at the transformer
as it begins to charge the battery as you slowly turn the voltage up.

To prove to yourself that the efficiency is the same at both charge rates you should set up a dummy load (headlamp) to
discharge the battery for the same amount of time then use your kilowatt meter to find the cost of charging the batteries
two different ways. You should allow so delay time for the battery to equalize after a fast charge. Another thing that would
help is learning how to use a hydrometer to detect the specific gravity of the battery electrolyte (see Wikipedia) so you
can start and stop the battery at the same chemical endpoints). If you can put the same specific gravity charge on a battery
at different rates then you might have something OU significant. But I predict the differences will be down in the noise.


If your really interested then you will need automate this process so you can integrate it a number of times without
procedural errors.

----

Now, you can electrolyze hydrogen slowly at a lower value of input voltage and room temperature heat gets included
as energy in the charge. Batteries also have this effect but it simply produces an efficiency effect that allows
a battery to charge with an efficiency that cancels out the batteries internal resistance, that really should be included.



:S: MarkSCoffman
 




Mancha

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Re: Charging 12V Battery with 10V Power Supply
« Reply #23 on: November 05, 2014, 11:48:44 PM »
Mancha,

I think you are making a mistake with the 10.5 VAC transformer charging the battery. You generally can charge a battery
which has a voltage below it's maximum but the charging voltage always must be above the batteries current voltage. If you
hook a lower voltage source up to higher voltage battery you will force reverse current backward through the lower voltage supply
either blowing fuses, burning it out or folding it back.

The reason you are seeing some charging with the configuration of the 10.5VAC rectified supply is that a transformer is measured
in AC RMS voltage which is de-rated  .707 * volts(peak to peak) from the peak AC voltage so that means that the voltage
in total is about 14.8VACpk-pk = 10.5VAC RMS.  The diode blocks the lower AC voltages of the AC from being overridden by
the battery so that there is no backwards discharge flow (see above). So the battery is only conducting (recharge current) near
the peak = hence the altered AC power factor. These repetitive pulses are what is called PWM pulse width modulation so you have
only a small percentage of full current flowing that the AC line would be capable of for a short sub cycle period. This is what is
causing the slowing down of charging. Since you are being billed for less current by your utility meter is costing you less per unit
time but more units time should cause you to pay the *same* for this type of charging as the faster type.

I recommend the you get an oscilloscope and AC variac and you can see what the conduction charging pulse looks like at the transformer
as it begins to charge the battery as you slowly turn the voltage up.

To prove to yourself that the efficiency is the same at both charge rates you should set up a dummy load (headlamp) to
discharge the battery for the same amount of time then use your kilowatt meter

:S: MarkSCoffman

MarkCofman,
I agree almost with everything what you said, but it is also what I said on video with  my English.

Of course that we made test with scope, energy meters,  battery capacity analyser (we have four type of them).
also we always discharge  battery to the same level with the same current
For that we are using our energy meter :
 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-9s2L5zjXjU

It is not something special, we just constructed for our needs.
Yes, needed time to make 100% charged  battery is longer than using ordinary chargers, but I said it in video .
But I do not agree that will be the same total invested energy. We got about 30-35% better results with 10V RMS AC , then with 13.5 V ordinary charger. the power factor is the same.
there are few reasons why it is better. first is how I described, another is lower current of charging. As you know higher current  decreases efficiency .
But it takes too much time.
It is not  invention, it is just one more approach for charging batteries.  I am using this principle in just  few cases in my lab. For some  cases I like to use this chargers  because is simple to make, no current  regulation, no nothing, just transformer and bridge rectifier.

All The Best,
Milan


profitis

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Re: Charging 12V Battery with 10V Power Supply
« Reply #24 on: November 06, 2014, 07:57:10 AM »
 yes @mancha hydrogen peroxide H2O2 + 2H+ + 2e- >< 2H20  1.7v(Es) powerful oxidizer: H2 + H2O2 = 2H2O.did you know that virtually all intermediate catalytic-step reaction for the common O2 + 4H+ + 4e- >< 2H2O involves instant decomposition of h2o2 somewhere in the chain of steps.infact it involves so many short-lived intermediates that not even scientists agree on exact mechanisms yet.also different catalyst = different mechanisms. They got some electrolysis at 1.5v with Fe2O3 cathode and Ni(OH)2 anode just a few weeks ago but its actually been known since the 1960's yet they only shove this into the media now,very strange.I got visible electrolysis in my lab at 1.3v with platinum cathode and Nickel anode( in NaOH sol).I agree with markscoffman that when a non-gaseous (solid) faraday deposition is happening eg lead or zinc then how are you gonna jump over the counter-emf to get up to full capacity,solids cannot dissipate like gases or liquids do so I don't see chance for nernst manipulation? Only way I see to get round chemical counter-emf is via manipulation of voltage-peaks as markscoffman say but this will apply only to solids chemistry.a solid has a nernst-value of unity (1) beyond a critical point.

Mancha

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Re: Charging 12V Battery with 10V Power Supply
« Reply #25 on: November 06, 2014, 08:08:40 AM »
.I agree with markscoffman that when a non-gaseous (solid) faraday deposition is happening eg lead or zinc then how are you gonna jump over the counter-emf to get up to full capacity,solids cannot dissipate like gases or liquids do so I don't see chance for nernst manipulation? Only way I see to get round chemical counter-emf is via manipulation of voltage-peaks as markscoffman say but this will apply only to solids chemistry.a solid has a nernst-value of unity (1)
Profitis,
High active  hydrogen produced with Pb or Zn cathode has different activity than hydrogen produced by Nickel or Stainless steel Cathode.
Active hydrogen react with Pb at room temperature. PbH4 is result of this  reaction. PbH4 is GAS, but very unstable gas which not lost too long. Zinc hydrate is powder. We can ask ourself why LEAD acid battery is still on the market beside  many disadvantages. Even manufacturer has to pay tax for ecology. The answer is that there are more advantages than disandvantages. One of them could be  electro-chemistry and chemistry which is happening inside. I described just  one aspect of this in my bideo Tesla's Radiant Energy 4 and 5.
All the Best,
Milan

profitis

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Re: Charging 12V Battery with 10V Power Supply
« Reply #26 on: November 06, 2014, 08:22:56 AM »
Mmm let me put thinking cap on try figure if these hydrides will lower entropy levels @mancha brb

profitis

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Re: Charging 12V Battery with 10V Power Supply
« Reply #27 on: November 06, 2014, 05:04:43 PM »
Okay @mancha I've given this some thought.atomic hydrogen is a very powerful reducer,much more powerful than dihydrogen.if your atomic hydrogen in its very brief lifetime is reducing PbSO4 back to lead I can understand. However,if the atomic hydrogen is forming PbH4 then decomposing into Pb and H2 you have a problem,residual H2 gas.residual H2 gas is going to float straight over to your PbO2 cathode and burnup on it and consume it giving a hidden cost.sacrifice of PbO2 for liberation of Pb...mmff!?

profitis

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Re: Charging 12V Battery with 10V Power Supply
« Reply #28 on: November 06, 2014, 05:23:39 PM »
Atomic H in its unbonded raw state in acid sol H>< H+ + e- 2.1v (Es)

Mancha

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Re: Charging 12V Battery with 10V Power Supply
« Reply #29 on: November 07, 2014, 09:15:51 AM »
Okay @mancha I've given this some thought.atomic hydrogen is a very powerful reducer,much more powerful than dihydrogen.if your atomic hydrogen in its very brief lifetime is reducing PbSO4 back to lead I can understand. However,if the atomic hydrogen is forming PbH4 then decomposing into Pb and H2 you have a problem,residual H2 gas.residual H2 gas is going to float straight over to your PbO2 cathode and burnup on it and consume it giving a hidden cost.sacrifice of PbO2 for liberation of Pb...mmff!?

Well,
Electrochemistry inside of battery is too complex as everything in nature. We always simplify processes , because they are  very complex.
What I am trying to say  is that  we can change electro-chemistry and chemcitry inside of battery
with different kind of treatment, because there are different level of hydrogen activity which depedns of the way how it is produced. Different level of activity make different chemistry on cathode, different chemistry on cathode change internal resistance of battery. Internal resitance is already changes with charging/discharging  of battery, but we could speed up or make it slower..
Also it is very important to say, there will be several different  chemical processes in the same time. there is no just one. When I said that there are different activity of hydrogen it means that there will be mixture of different level of activity. Not all hydrogen atoms  or molecules will has high activity.
Have a look it again:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hq9AvKU26A4
 Ooooffff I started to complicate things, it is better to stop now ;D
All the Best,
Milan