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Solid States Devices => solid state devices => Topic started by: tinman on October 29, 2014, 10:51:54 PM

Title: My crazy project
Post by: tinman on October 29, 2014, 10:51:54 PM
Using 3 old smartdrive stators,i will be conducting test in regards to pulling down the collapsing magnetic field during the flyback portion of each cycle. Already found one interesting thing along the way-why dose the LED get brighter,and stay on longer when i touch the positive side of the LED onto the laminated core of the stator?.The stator core is completely isolated from the windings -checked and double checked.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mZr48qw2hDE
Title: Re: My crazy project
Post by: polln8r on October 29, 2014, 11:13:47 PM
The LED brightening reminds me of Tinselkoala's power transmitter hoops putting the automotive bulb into 'Supernova Mode (SNM)' https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y6qKISIE0Og . Something like that happening here too?

Cool project :)

(edited to fix link)



Title: Re: My crazy project
Post by: tinman on October 30, 2014, 12:12:04 PM
The LED brightening reminds me of Tinselkoala's power transmitter hoops putting the automotive bulb into 'Supernova Mode (SNM)' https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y6qKISIE0Og . Something like that happening here too?

Cool project :)

(edited to fix link)
No,i dont think that is the same. Looks to me like a single turn coil/light bulb combo,being powered by magnetic induction-wireless transmition. When TK gets the supernova thing happening,i believe that is just the transmiting and recieving coils coming into resonance.
Title: Re: My crazy project
Post by: TinselKoala on October 30, 2014, 12:19:47 PM
The laminations _reduce_ but do not eliminate the eddy currents induced in the cores. When the coils are oscillating you will have voltage in the laminations. I presume you are using an ohmmeter or continuity checker to confirm "complete isolation". But this will not detect capacitive coupling at high frequencies. But without a circuit diagram ... how can we analyze a circuit?
Title: Re: My crazy project
Post by: tinman on October 30, 2014, 03:37:46 PM
The laminations _reduce_ but do not eliminate the eddy currents induced in the cores. When the coils are oscillating you will have voltage in the laminations. I presume you are using an ohmmeter or continuity checker to confirm "complete isolation". But this will not detect capacitive coupling at high frequencies. But without a circuit diagram ... how can we analyze a circuit?
What kind of voltage(how many volts) would you get from a steel core?-and yes, ofcourse i tested with continuity tester ;)
The core is laminated plates that are full circle with fingers for the windings,so i cant see too much voltage being produced there. As you see in the circuit diagram,there is an inductor across the LED.The inductor has to be just right,or it will not work. I have tried 7 different one's,and only one dose the job well,the rest will not get the LED as bright-even adjusting the frequency wont tune them in.

I am now driving the LED straight from two cores of the same type-no ground needed any more.
Title: Re: My crazy project
Post by: TinselKoala on October 30, 2014, 04:00:31 PM
Yep, I suspect capacitive coupling. You could try this experiment: instead of connecting to the core, use a very small capacitor, a few tens or hundreds of pF, connected to the coil itself, and then connect the LED/Coil combo to this capacitor instead of to the core. Sweep frequency. Are you able to light the LED this way?
 
The LED/Inductor combo reminds me of some effects I demonstrated during the Little Miss Mosfet era. I have so many videos of those things that it might take me a while to find it, though.
Title: Re: My crazy project
Post by: tinman on October 30, 2014, 05:11:27 PM
Yep, I suspect capacitive coupling. You could try this experiment: instead of connecting to the core, use a very small capacitor, a few tens or hundreds of pF, connected to the coil itself, and then connect the LED/Coil combo to this capacitor instead of to the core. Sweep frequency. Are you able to light the LED this way?
 
No,that dosnt work,as the coil/LED combo is way to far away from the stator-about a foot.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cJB_cnx9Rx8
Title: Re: My crazy project
Post by: gotoluc on October 30, 2014, 05:44:06 PM
Hi Brad,

interesting stuff as always!

If you disconnect the scope probe on the pickup coil and led, does the led light stay just as bright?
Keep in mind your scope probe most lightly have a common ground and that could complete circuits.
EDIT
no need to reply to my post. I just looked at your video again and it looks like you are using the scope ground to carry ground to your pickup coil and led and you are quite aware of the coupling.

Maybe put a shunt resistor on your signal generator input and hook up your scope to it to see if the current changes when you connect the led?   obviously you would connect a separate wire going to your coil and led and not use the scope ground.
Title: Re: My crazy project
Post by: TinselKoala on October 30, 2014, 11:25:09 PM
No,that dosnt work,as the coil/LED combo is way to far away from the stator-about a foot.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cJB_cnx9Rx8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cJB_cnx9Rx8)
No, I think you are misunderstanding me. I mean capacitive coupling between the stator windings and the laminated core. It doesn't matter how far your LED/Inductor are from the rest of the system. I suggested that you connect the wire that you touch to the laminations, to a small capacitor instead. 50 pF-200 pF or so. Then connect the other side of this small capacitor to the coil winding that is around the laminated core. This would simulate the capacitive coupling between the laminated core and the coil which is wound around it.
Nice scope. I can't watch the video at the moment, so I apologize if you actually did the experiment I suggested. Distance of the LED/Inductor combo doesn't matter to the experiment I mean; the capacitive coupling takes place right inside the stator coil with its core.
Title: Re: My crazy project
Post by: TinselKoala on October 30, 2014, 11:29:23 PM
No,i dont think that is the same. Looks to me like a single turn coil/light bulb combo,being powered by magnetic induction-wireless transmition. When TK gets the supernova thing happening,i believe that is just the transmiting and recieving coils coming into resonance.
That's right. When the Rx and Tx loops are close in my system, the resonant frequency of both parts shifts slightly to come closer into precise tuning. I don't think your system is doing this.
Title: Re: My crazy project
Post by: Rigel4 on October 31, 2014, 02:09:27 AM
Thanks, this is very helpful. I appreciate the info on the 1.5+ Hhz.
With all the things I learn on this forum, this is the best type of info.
I swear I will never through any house device away again (with out harvesting parts).
//wife does not understand this, not alt all.
Title: Re: My crazy project
Post by: Cap-Z-ro on October 31, 2014, 02:44:30 AM
Tinman, it may be of interest to see if the LED would light if you had put the other stator into physical contact with the outside edge of the coiled stator, and placed the probe on the opposite side of the contact point...and whether the brightness or the AC draw would change every time you relocated the probe.

Regards...
Title: Re: My crazy project
Post by: tinman on October 31, 2014, 10:33:39 AM
Tinman, it may be of interest to see if the LED would light if you had put the other stator into physical contact with the outside edge of the coiled stator, and placed the probe on the opposite side of the contact point...and whether the brightness or the AC draw would change every time you relocated the probe.

Regards...
Well here is a bit of interesting information Cap. I measured the avaliable power between the stator core and ground. 123uA @ .13 volts AC. This i think would be the eddy current power?. Now,the only thing we do is place an inductor between ground and the core,and an LED(either way around) across that inductor. As you can see in the video,there is no way 123uA @ .13 volts would drive that LED to the point of blowing. There is also the fact that we now have a current of around 5mA,and a voltage across that LED of around 3.8 volts. It almost looks as though it is a tank circuit that puts out far more than it consume's-->no reflection on P/in shown either,by DMM and scope ???. But i have learned not to let these things fool me so easly these day's,and FAR more reserch and experimenting is needed. Like i said in the video-probably nothing to it,but until i know whats going on,i'll keep looking. ;)
Title: Re: My crazy project
Post by: picowatt on October 31, 2014, 04:58:36 PM
Well here is a bit of interesting information Cap. I measured the avaliable power between the stator core and ground. 123uA @ .13 volts AC. This i think would be the eddy current power?. Now,the only thing we do is place an inductor between ground and the core,and an LED(either way around) across that inductor. As you can see in the video,there is no way 123uA @ .13 volts would drive that LED to the point of blowing. There is also the fact that we now have a current of around 5mA,and a voltage across that LED of around 3.8 volts. It almost looks as though it is a tank circuit that puts out far more than it consume's-->no reflection on P/in shown either,by DMM and scope ???. But i have learned not to let these things fool me so easly these day's,and FAR more reserch and experimenting is needed. Like i said in the video-probably nothing to it,but until i know whats going on,i'll keep looking. ;)

Tinman,

I see that you do indeed live in the land "down under".  Apparently, even ground symbols on schematics point upwards!

Having taken a quick look at your videos, I think what you are seeing is related to capacitive coupling and your receiving coil's self resonant frequency (SRF).

Your waveforms have fairly fast rise times, meaning that there is a great deal of high frequency content.  Although your square wave's repetition rate is <20K, you have significant harmonics at 5 to 10 times that frequency.  Your scope likely has spectrum/FFT display capabilities which would help you better visualize the frequencies you are actually dealing with. 

You might also explore this using low level sine waves from your gen, sweeping up into the 100 to 300K range to investigate the stator's SRF (and your receiving coil as well).  That is such a cool looking gen however, I would consider placing some back to back zeners across the input just in case the voltage climbed excessively at the stator's SRF (if you have a schematic for your gen, you could look to see if there are protection diodes from the gen output to the rails prior to the 50R output resistor, always nice to know if they are there).  Adding additional resistance between the gen out and stator will also help protect the gen a bit till you get to know the stator response.  Not knowing how robust/repairable that gen's output circuit is, I don't want to suggest anything that might harm it!   

As for eddy currents, they mostly circulate within each steel lamination sheet and due to the steel's relatively low resistance, are usually very low voltage.  At high frequencies, some skin effect may develop, but I believe the bulk of what you are seeing is related to capacitive coupling and dielectric properties at the higher frequencies you are using. 

I deal with high quality dielectrics every day that I wish were indeed true insulators under the conditions I need to use them.  Around here, 100 picoamps of current flow is considered a short circuit! 

What do you see when a scope probe (10X) is touched to the laminations?

PW 

   

Title: Re: My crazy project
Post by: tinman on November 01, 2014, 01:18:15 AM
Tinman,

I see that you do indeed live in the land "down under".  Apparently, even ground symbols on schematics point upwards! 
 


PW 

   
What do you see when a scope probe (10X) is touched to the laminations?
--> I see chaos-will post screen shot today.

 :D
Title: Re: My crazy project
Post by: picowatt on November 01, 2014, 04:02:45 AM
What do you see when a scope probe (10X) is touched to the laminations?
--> I see chaos-will post screen shot today.

 :D

Tinman,

Thanks for fixing the schematic...

.retteb tol a s'tahT

PW
Title: Re: My crazy project
Post by: tinman on November 01, 2014, 07:52:16 AM
Tinman,

Thanks for fixing the schematic...

.retteb tol a s'tahT

PW
Lol
Title: Re: My crazy project
Post by: tinman on November 01, 2014, 08:54:01 AM
I now have all three stators stacked together(all isolated),as in first picture. The top and bottom stator are in series,and pulsing a north field on outside perimeter. The center stator is fireing 180* out of phase with the top and bottom stator,and is fireing a south field on the outside perimeter.The center stator is fired via a pnp transistor,which is triggered by the SG.The outer stators are fired up via an NPN transistor,and the signal to the base is from the inductive kickback from the center stator. So as the center stator switches off,the two outer stators switch on.

The scope shot below show the traces across a 10 ohm resistor on each probe.The ground of both probes are on the bottom stator core.The blue trace(probe) is on the center core,and the yellow trace(probe) is on the top core. The scope is isolated from ground(grid),via the UPS.
Title: Re: My crazy project
Post by: tinman on November 01, 2014, 09:08:15 AM
Test point schematic.

There is enough power from the three cores to drive 100 LED's.
please note-all 3 cores are electrically isolated.
Title: Re: My crazy project
Post by: TinselKoala on November 01, 2014, 01:02:35 PM
When you say "electrically isolated" you are talking about a continuity test: Low voltage DC from your ohmmeter, right? Do you have a "highpot" tester? Are you working at high frequencies?

There is "isolation" and there is true isolation. It is inevitable that your windings and your cores are _capacitively coupled_ and you may not be able to detect this with an ohmmeter at DC.

Have you actually tried anything like the experiment I suggested?

Title: Re: My crazy project
Post by: tinman on November 02, 2014, 03:26:56 AM
When you say "electrically isolated" you are talking about a continuity test: Low voltage DC from your ohmmeter, right? Do you have a "highpot" tester? Are you working at high frequencies?

There is "isolation" and there is true isolation. It is inevitable that your windings and your cores are _capacitively coupled_ and you may not be able to detect this with an ohmmeter at DC.

Have you actually tried anything like the experiment I suggested?
Quote: When you say "electrically isolated" you are talking about a continuity test:
Yes,as shown in video above.

Quote: Do you have a "highpot" tester?
No,dont have one of these.

Quote: Are you working at high frequencies?
Yes/no-the effect will work from as low as 150hz,but the LED brightness seems to peak around 90khZ

Quote: Have you actually tried anything like the experiment I suggested?
Im not sure why,as you have a physical conection to the coil windings,where as i am only using the isolated core's-isolated meaning no physical contact,as i am aware of the capacitive coupling.

below is the circuit with the LED's-that just replace the 10 ohm resistors. No external inductors are needed now to light the LED's
Title: Re: My crazy project
Post by: TinselKoala on November 02, 2014, 03:42:03 AM
Seriously? You don't know why I suggested this experiment?

Well, I guess it's kind of like Jazz music. If you don't get it, I'm not going to be able to explain it to you.

Why don't you just try it, and see what happens.
Title: Re: My crazy project
Post by: tinman on November 02, 2014, 05:18:37 AM
Seriously? You don't know why I suggested this experiment?

Well, I guess it's kind of like Jazz music. If you don't get it, I'm not going to be able to explain it to you.

Why don't you just try it, and see what happens.
Yes TK,i do understand what your trying to show me. Your caps are replacing the cores in this experiment-fully understood. But i guess i should have posted the full schematic first,and then you will see why your experiment may not work-see schematic below-now what would happen?,nothing im guessing?.-->maybe a slight drop in voltage between cap's,but very little i would think. But your test has a very wide range of results that could be had,and really cant reflect what im showing. Where abouts on the windings of the coils should your caps be placed so as to represent the position in relation to the cores of my setup?.This is where coil resistance plays a big roll with your test,as we will get voltage differences between winding positions(coil resistance)If we place one cap at the start of the top coil,and the other cap at the end of the bottom coil,then our potential difference will be battery voltage when the transistor switches on. But if we place one cap at the end of the top coil,and the other cap at the start of the bottom coil,then our potential difference will be close to 0 volts. So the caps would be placed where to be in relation to the core's in the stators?.
Next post for full schematic.
Title: Re: My crazy project
Post by: tinman on November 02, 2014, 05:22:21 AM
Below is the full schematic. One interesting thing i found was it will self oscillate when the SG is disconected.Im guessing that there must be enough capacitance between the collector and base of the tip36c to keep the oscillations going.It will self oscillate around 9khZ.

Set up as pictured below,there is no need for the inductors across the LED's,as the LED's will light extreemly brightly on there own.
The whole system is now completely ground isolated. Using a small ground stake in the garden bed,the LED's will also light between the ground stake and stator core's,and can be either polarity to do so..

It is also not frequency dependent,as will work between 150hZ to 90khZ. However,there are frequencies where the LED's will go extreemly bright and then blow.

You will also notice in the schematic that the top and bottom stator are wired in series(polarity correct). This shouid mean that there polarity and potential  is the same during each cycle,but still the LED's run quite brightly between these two core's

The inductive kickback is being quashed via B2,and now peaks at battery voltage(around 12.4v).At some frequencies when the LED's are conected,the P/in will rise slightly,and at other frequencies the P/in will go down.In either case,the P/out to B2 never changes-checked with scope and CSR.
Title: Re: My crazy project
Post by: TinselKoala on November 02, 2014, 06:14:30 AM
The low-value capacitors formed by the cores and the windings are conducting the oscillating signal and allowing power to leak to the LEDs. And/or, you are experiencing insulation breakdown at a higher voltage than your continuity checker is using.

Do the white plastic bobbins fully surround the cores, or is the winding wire in contact with the metal of the cores at any point?
Title: Re: My crazy project
Post by: tinman on November 02, 2014, 06:26:42 AM
The low-value capacitors formed by the cores and the windings are conducting the oscillating signal and allowing power to leak to the LEDs. And/or, you are experiencing insulation breakdown at a higher voltage than your continuity checker is using.

Do the white plastic bobbins fully surround the cores, or is the winding wire in contact with the metal of the cores at any point?
TK-i wish you could see the video-->that would answer a lot of your questions.
The white plastic is 2mm thick,and is mould injected around the core.There is no way in hell the windings are ever going to short to the core. I have tried some time back to remove the plastic insulation from the steel core of one of these stators-->it took me nearly a whole day.Two of the stators are 60 series stators(top and bottom in my setup),meaning that they ran on 240 volts,and the third is an 80 series stator(earlier modle) and ran on 120 volts(center one in my setup). Im using 12 volt's.

Looking at the pic below,how can the two cores have any potential difference?,as they are identical in all way's,recieve the same electromagnetic pulse,and are in phase with each other.
Title: Re: My crazy project
Post by: profitis on November 02, 2014, 11:16:55 AM
so how's it going with the experiment @tinman.any anomolies
Title: Re: My crazy project
Post by: profitis on November 02, 2014, 11:17:46 AM
Chek for cooling @tinman