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Author Topic: Gyroscopic Inertia Generator  (Read 88865 times)

Offline tinman

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Re: Gyroscopic Inertia Generator
« Reply #45 on: November 15, 2014, 04:26:26 PM »
Tinman:

This effect is dependent on geometry.  The more the coils resemble thin disks, and if the rotor magnet is also a thin disk, then the effect will be more pronounced.

You may have tried taking two equal bar magnets and pushing opposite poles together.  Have you every noticed that the repulsion force sometimes disappears when you push them all the way together?

Please look carefully at the attached diagram.

https://my.vanderbilt.edu/mrengineering2014/2014/04/matlab-simulations-on-gradient-coil-field-homogeneity-2/

MileHigh
Simulations MH,and done without a PM between the two coils.This in no way represents how the actual setup being discused performs.

Through much experimenting,i can say with certainty that having a coil each side of the magnet is 100%+ more efficient than having just one coil on one side of the magnet.

When you stated-Quote: Mr. Quanta Magnetics probably said to himself, "I will make an improved design where I put drive coils on both sides of the main center rotor.  With two drive coils on opposite sides of the rotor magnets I should get double the torque to make the rotor spin faster and more efficiently."

Im affraid Mr Quanta was right in this case MH,and these are things you find out with actual test of actual devices-not simulators.

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Re: Gyroscopic Inertia Generator
« Reply #45 on: November 15, 2014, 04:26:26 PM »

Offline MileHigh

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Re: Gyroscopic Inertia Generator
« Reply #46 on: November 15, 2014, 04:26:39 PM »
Tinman:

In further thinking about it I could be wrong.  It depends on the motor configuration for the magnets and coils which I illustrate below.  I was not taking into account about the way the disk magnets on the rotor may be polarized in the Quanta Magnetics motor.

Here is a second go at it:  (coil, rotor magnet, coil where you are looking at the rotor edge-on and in reality the coils and magnet are tall and thin, not wide and flat.)

[s@@@n]  [n---s]  [s@@@n]

The above would represent the start of a repulsion push on the rotor.  In this case the opposing coils would have a strong field between them and it would be very efficient.

However, if the polarity of the rotor magnet is at right angles as shown below, then you would have the cancellation effect taking place.


                 [south]
                 [-]
                 [-]
[s@@@n]  [n]  [n@@@s]

So I qualify my comments in that I was thinking of the second configuration for the rotor.  I am simply not sure of the rotor configuration.  My apologies.

MileHigh

Offline tinman

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Re: Gyroscopic Inertia Generator
« Reply #47 on: November 15, 2014, 04:48:26 PM »
Tinman:

In further thinking about it I could be wrong.  It depends on the motor configuration for the magnets and coils which I illustrate below.  I was not taking into account about the way the disk magnets on the rotor may be polarized in the Quanta Magnetics motor.

Here is a second go at it:  (coil, rotor magnet, coil where you are looking at the rotor edge-on and in reality the coils and magnet are tall and thin, not wide and flat.)

[s@@@n]  [n---s]  [s@@@n]

The above would represent the start of a repulsion push on the rotor.  In this case the opposing coils would have a strong field between them and it would be very efficient.

However, if the polarity of the rotor magnet is at right angles as shown below, then you would have the cancellation effect taking place.


                 [south]
                 [-]
                 [-]
[s@@@n]  [n]  [n@@@s]

So I qualify my comments in that I was thinking of the second configuration for the rotor.  I am simply not sure of the rotor configuration.  My apologies.

MileHigh
I was going by the diagram you posted(reply 20),and by the way the quanta rotor/coils are set up.
Thin coils,and thin rotor magnets--> (s@n) (ns) (s@n). The fields from the coils dont cancel out each other,in fact,they pull one another tight(if you can picture it that way)-much like stretching a rubber band. Having the two fields also neutralises the side ways pull you get from only one coil acting apon the magnet,and this also adds a little extra rotational force-not much,but a little.Here is the kicker-you hook the two coils up in series(reversed pole of course),and you drop your P/in by half,while maintaining the same(if not slightly more)attraction or repulsion force on the rotor. And believe it or not,attraction mode actually give a slightly higher force output than repulsion mode for the same P/in.

In your second configuration you are creating a bucking field. This is how my L.A.G opperated,and the results are the same as the first configuration.

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Re: Gyroscopic Inertia Generator
« Reply #47 on: November 15, 2014, 04:48:26 PM »
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Offline tinman

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Re: Gyroscopic Inertia Generator
« Reply #48 on: November 15, 2014, 05:01:29 PM »
Here is a little setup i threw together today to show the results between 1 and 2 coil setup's.

Attraction mode.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4qE_tg5KUZ8

Repulsion mode
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EyegkVYMnfw

Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Gyroscopic Inertia Generator
« Reply #49 on: November 15, 2014, 05:13:00 PM »
The most efficient use of the fields involves using "both ends" of a single coil to push or pull on "both ends" of the magnet you are trying to move. This can be done in various ways but a "C" shaped core with the moving magnet passing between the open ends of the core is perhaps the easiest to arrange. I'm sure tinman knows what I'm talking about. In my SNOT testbed I use a homemade C core of soft iron with the coil wound around it and the "rotor" ball passing between the open legs. In this way I am able to use the entire field produced by the coil, concentrated by the core and running between the ends of the C,  to attract the steel ball (which is not a magnet). A magnet rotor would be arranged to pass the rotor magnets through this gap, with opposite poles of the magnet facing the poles of the "C" core for attraction-type PMs, or same poles facing for repulsion-type PMs. This arrangement allows most of the field produced by the coil, both polarities, to interact with both poles of the rotor magnet, producing by far the most thrust-per-ampere.
In the multi-layer Quanta design this is _almost_ achieved by the inner coils, where both poles of the coil are able to affect magnets on the rotor. But the outermost coils still suffer from using only half of the available field.

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Re: Gyroscopic Inertia Generator
« Reply #49 on: November 15, 2014, 05:13:00 PM »
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Offline MileHigh

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Re: Gyroscopic Inertia Generator
« Reply #50 on: November 15, 2014, 06:06:15 PM »
I was going by the diagram you posted(reply 20),and by the way the quanta rotor/coils are set up.
Thin coils,and thin rotor magnets--> (s@n) (ns) (s@n). The fields from the coils dont cancel out each other,in fact,they pull one another tight(if you can picture it that way)-much like stretching a rubber band. Having the two fields also neutralises the side ways pull you get from only one coil acting apon the magnet,and this also adds a little extra rotational force-not much,but a little.Here is the kicker-you hook the two coils up in series(reversed pole of course),and you drop your P/in by half,while maintaining the same(if not slightly more)attraction or repulsion force on the rotor. And believe it or not,attraction mode actually give a slightly higher force output than repulsion mode for the same P/in.

In your second configuration you are creating a bucking field. This is how my L.A.G opperated,and the results are the same as the first configuration.

TK:

I hate the term, but I had a "brain fart" with that diagram in post #20.  Do you find it hard to proof-read your own text?  Between that and a keyboard that eats keystrokes sometimes (drives me nuts) I have a hard time sometimes.  I read over my text and my eyes fly by the words and I miss obvious typos.  The whole time I was discussing that diagram I was "seeing" the coils in opposition when in fact they weren't.  It came as a shock.  I can't explain it beyond that.  It's just one of those things that happens sometimes.

So I have to retract a lot of comments where I made a big stink about that.  Also Scorch please accept my apologies because I was mistaken about this issue.

I can see the better performance with two coils in series on either side.  I also watched Tnman's clips.  For your comment about using a "C" core with rotor magnets passing between the gap, yes I think that would make for a really cool looking pulse motor.  Think of tying it in with the microcontroller and amplifier:  When the rotor magnet is approaching the "C" you are in attraction mode.  When the rotor magnet passes TDC, then you flip the polarity and you are in repulsion mode.  Now that would be beyond cool.

I am still flabbergasted that my eyes/brain where not working and the whole time I looked at the diagram I thought the drive coils were in opposition when they weren't.

MileHigh

Offline MileHigh

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Re: Gyroscopic Inertia Generator
« Reply #51 on: November 15, 2014, 06:30:52 PM »
Here is a little setup i threw together today to show the results between 1 and 2 coil setup's.

Attraction mode.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4qE_tg5KUZ8

Repulsion mode
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EyegkVYMnfw

Timan:

I looked at your clips carefully.  I fully agree that two coils in series is better than a single coil like you demonstrated.  It makes perfect sense because you have more field interaction.  Also, note that you did not put the two coils in cancellation mode like I was discussing in earlier posts.  If you flip the connections on one of the coils and redo the tests, you will see what I mean.   Also I was not sure about the polarization of the rotor magnet, and you can see my earlier post that describes that in detail.

Going back to your main test, you (and TK) might be surprised by what I am going to say:  You tested additive drive coils in attraction mode and in repulsion mode.  Attraction mode was tested on one side of the coil pair and repulsion mode was tested on the other side.  The force you measure is dependent on the angle between the magnetic TDC of the coil pair and the rotor magnet and you had decent, but not highly precise control over that.  When you went from the attraction test to the repulsion test the angles were probably different by a small amount.  Not having precise control over the angles and factoring in similar things means that your test results fell within a reasonably expected error tolerance.  60 grams, 65 grams, 70 grams are in fact very similar measurements considering the error tolerances.  So the real conclusion from your experiment is that the attraction and repulsion forces are approximately the same for the same configuration based on your data plus error tolerance.

MileHigh

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Re: Gyroscopic Inertia Generator
« Reply #51 on: November 15, 2014, 06:30:52 PM »
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Offline Scorch

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Re: Gyroscopic Inertia Generator
« Reply #52 on: November 15, 2014, 07:08:42 PM »
Hey MileHigh.  :)

You already wrote that the Conductor of the all his electronic experiments, including those found on his youtube channel ( www.youtube.com/user/PMMG4HYBRID ), and the Inventor of all the Quanta Magnetics devices and kits ( http://quantamagnetics.com ); "knows very little or nothing about electronics". And, now, you have written these same things about Aaron and Peter.

Are you also making the same claim regarding John Bedini?
Are you of the position that John Bedini doesn't have any training or a very limited understanding of electronics?

Please respond.

Kindest regards;

}:>


Scorch:

Unfortunately you have to take nearly every statement from Aaron and Peter with a grain of salt.  They are just two ordinary guys with a very limited understanding of electronics that have been winging it this whole time.  Neither of them has any educational training in electronics and with one scratch, it shows.

MileHigh

Offline Scorch

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Re: Gyroscopic Inertia Generator
« Reply #53 on: November 15, 2014, 07:59:38 PM »
Hey MileHigh.  :)

Apology accepted and don't worry about it.
All is forgiven and we are all here merely to learn, experience, and gain knowledge from this particular plain of existence and our soul evolution.

}:>




So I have to retract a lot of comments where I made a big stink about that.  Also Scorch please accept my apologies because I was mistaken about this issue.


MileHigh

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Re: Gyroscopic Inertia Generator
« Reply #53 on: November 15, 2014, 07:59:38 PM »
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Offline MileHigh

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Re: Gyroscopic Inertia Generator
« Reply #54 on: November 15, 2014, 08:54:16 PM »
Scorch:

No I am not making the same claims about John Bedini.  I suspect he knows his stuff but he doesn't let on.

MileHigh

Offline Scorch

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Re: Gyroscopic Inertia Generator
« Reply #55 on: November 15, 2014, 09:25:20 PM »
11/15/14

Hello everybody.  :)

Just another build photo.
This is the pulse motor rotor consisting of two polocarbonate disks complete with stainless steel screws, magnet retainers, and magnets.

These are very powerful, N52, magnets rated at 115 pound pull and I must empathize with Willie E. Coyote every time I am working with magnets this powerful...  ;D
See: www.kjmagnetics.com/proddetail.asp?prod=DX8C-N52&cat=168

One must be VERY careful not to lose control of these magnets.
They must be handled with great respect and held firmly and care must be taken not to allow the magnet to be attracted to another magnet or attract, in, something unwanted from the work bench such as a wrench, screwdriver, hot soldering iron or a barrel of TNT... :P

It has also been my experience that the tolerances in these QM kits are pretty tight so I always make sure the shaft is installed in the disks and/or hubs before final tightening of hardware; otherwise parts may not line up properly.

}:>

PS: Just discovered I ordered the wrong size disk magnets for the other rotors and now waiting for parts again...  :P
« Last Edit: November 15, 2014, 11:42:49 PM by Scorch »

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Re: Gyroscopic Inertia Generator
« Reply #55 on: November 15, 2014, 09:25:20 PM »
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Offline synchro1

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Re: Gyroscopic Inertia Generator
« Reply #56 on: November 15, 2014, 11:10:48 PM »
Quote from Milehigh:


"The magnetic fields generated by the two coils on either side of the rotor magnet will mostly cancel each other out"
.


What a QUACK!

Yet even more preposterous malarky from the supercilious fraud:


"The real conclusion from your experiment is that the attraction and repulsion forces are approximately the same for the same configuration based on your data plus error tolerance".

Offline synchro1

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Re: Gyroscopic Inertia Generator
« Reply #57 on: November 15, 2014, 11:36:53 PM »
@Tinman,


               The test really demonstrates very little the way you did it. You need to test the pull of a coil of twice the windings on one side then compare the pull to the two coils of half the turns on both sides. You'll find that if you double the windings on one side your imaginary advantage will disappear. The advantage comes from two pole attraction to a ferrite rotor as TK points out.

Offline tinman

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Re: Gyroscopic Inertia Generator
« Reply #58 on: November 16, 2014, 04:05:40 AM »
@Tinman,


               The test really demonstrates very little the way you did it. You need to test the pull of a coil of twice the windings on one side then compare the pull to the two coils of half the turns on both sides. You'll find that if you double the windings on one side your imaginary advantage will disappear. The advantage comes from two pole attraction to a ferrite rotor as TK points out.
Sorry synchro,but you are incorrect. The way i carried out the test is correct,and doubleing up on windings will change nothing in regards to what i have shown. Sure,add double the windings to the coil,drop your P/in and retain the same pull/push force. But then you just add another coil the same to the other side of the magnet to once again half the P/in,and retain your pull/push force.Regardless to what ever you do to your coil on one side of the magnet to increase the magnetic field strength and drop the power consumption,you simply put another coil of the same type on the other side to once again half the P/in and retain your pull/push force.Also by adding another coil to the other side of the magnet on the rotor,you eliminate the side ways pull/push on the rotor,and the system becomes ballanced.

MH is also correct when he said the repulsion and attraction force is the same,takeing into account test error margin's. After conducting a more precise test in regards to attraction and repulsion force with a given P/in,the results were exactly the same.

Offline MileHigh

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Re: Gyroscopic Inertia Generator
« Reply #59 on: November 16, 2014, 07:31:33 AM »
Quote from Milehigh:


"The magnetic fields generated by the two coils on either side of the rotor magnet will mostly cancel each other out"
.


What a QUACK!

Yet even more preposterous malarky from the supercilious fraud:


"The real conclusion from your experiment is that the attraction and repulsion forces are approximately the same for the same configuration based on your data plus error tolerance".

Synchro1, you can kiss my ass.  This kind of nonsensical idiocy from you has been going on for well more than a full year.  You made a complete ass of yourself when ConradElectro was testing his bifilar coil.  Your stupid behaviour may be the reason he stopped sharing his test results on this forum.  You make stupid idiotic comments like the ones above for your own cheap thrills and mental masturbation.

For Christ's sake, you are a 50-year-old man, can't you act like one?

I would like to see you post an apology to me in this thread and also state that you are going to smarten up and stop your stupid asinine behaviour from this point onwards.

MileHigh

 

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