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New Battery systems => Other new battery systems => Topic started by: TommeyLReed on October 11, 2014, 06:35:33 PM

Title: Recycle LapTop Batteries
Post by: TommeyLReed on October 11, 2014, 06:35:33 PM

Hi all,

I have order 100 laptop batteries for my electric trike project.

At a average cost of $5-$6 per cell, you can save hundreds of dollars by recycling laptop batteries.

Your average laptop battery has 6 cells in them.

My video about recycle lithium batteries:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hCMjfmkoQnM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hCMjfmkoQnM)



Tom.
Title: Re: Recycle LapTop Batteries
Post by: picowatt on October 11, 2014, 09:22:42 PM
Hi all,

I have order 100 laptop batteries for my electric trike project.

At a average cost of $5-$6 per cell, you can save hundreds of dollars by recycling laptop batteries.

Your average laptop battery has 6 cells in them.

My video about recycle lithium batteries:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hCMjfmkoQnM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hCMjfmkoQnM)



Tom.

That's some pretty scary stuff you got going on there.  All those batteries look like a Superfund clean-up site!

Seriously, lithium ion batteries are quite dangerous if not dealt with properly.  Do some searches for lithium ion battery thermal runaway, fire, explosion, etc.  Even storing them improperly can lead to either the terminals shorting to another battery or physical damage that can lead to a thermal runaway event, fire or explosion.

A large group paralleled, without proper electronic management, is pretty dangerous.  There is no way to balance the charges/loads or ensure all batteries in the group are at the same state of charge/discharge. When under a heavy load, a few good or better cells (lower internal resistance) may be trying to power the entire load and have too much current drawn from them resulting in a fire or explosion.  If one cell goes bad in the group, particularly a shorted cell, it will draw a lot of current from the rest of the pack, and again, there will most likely be a fire or explosion.

A large series string is just as bad because if one cell is weak, it will be reverse polarity charged by the other cells in the string when under a load.  Lithium ion cells do not take kindly to reverse polarity and again, a fire or explosion is likely.

Tesla autos use a large set of series strings parallel connected in groups but have an active 24/7 computer that monitors and balances the charge/discharge state of all the cells, as well as an active liquid cooled thermal management system.  The computer and thermal management system of a Tesla runs off the battery itself, and if the battery charge drops to a certain level (10-15% I believe) the battery will "brick" itself and disconnect all internal strapping connected/controlled by the computer.  One must then replace the entire battery pack (very expensive).  Tesla even has a service available to have the car call home to Tesla if the battery charge is becoming too low from sitting for too long at the airport, etc, and to either allow them to warn the owner or actually send out a truck to charge the battery.

The few cells I have around here are well packed and in such a way as to prevent their terminal from shorting to anything or receiving any physical damage (i.e., a dent)

I have a few flashlights that use a pair of lithium ion batteries in a series string.  In those flashlights, I use ONLY protected cells, which have overcurrent, overvoltage, undervoltage and reverse polarity protection built right into the batteries (they are slightly longer than a standard 18650 to accommodate the added circuitry ).

Besides the obvious Dreamliner incidents, there have been several aircraft cargo hold fires from improperly packed lithium ion batteries related to both commercial shipments and passenger luggage.  Hence, they are considered hazardous cargo requiring special considerations.

Although a bit pricey, and slightly less energy dense, LiFePO4 batteries are a much safer and forgiving chemistry, and better suited to an E-bike if great lengths are not to be taken to monitor and balance a large bank of lithium ion batteries.

Be safe, the hazards related to lithium ion batteries should not be taken lightly.

Don't burn your place down...

PW 

 

 
Title: Re: Recycle LapTop Batteries
Post by: picowatt on October 12, 2014, 01:41:06 AM
With regard to charging lithium ion batteries, other than trickle charging at around C/300, which is supposed to be relatively safe, I strongly urge only the use of a decent quality smart charger for charging lithium ion batteries.  It is difficult to detect the end of charge point on a lithium ion battery and overcharging them can also make for a bad day.  Having had a cheapo charger fill a room with smoke after overheating a lithium ion battery and melting the charger, one learns to give these batteries a great deal of respect.

For 18650's and the like, a smart charger such as the Nitecore Intellicharger I4 is pretty decent.  However building a dedicated smart charger/balancer for a large bank of custom assembled battery packs would in itself be a substantial design project.

PW     
Title: Re: Recycle LapTop Batteries
Post by: TinselKoala on October 12, 2014, 01:55:53 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZTzEHsJVZhA
Title: Re: Recycle LapTop Batteries
Post by: ramset on October 12, 2014, 02:15:18 AM

what happened to the Boom??

Snizzle   Fizzle   ......


Sissy's.....
Title: Re: Recycle LapTop Batteries
Post by: TinselKoala on October 12, 2014, 03:16:06 AM
Did you actually watch the whole video?

Now imagine that happening inside a hermetically sealed moisture proof battery box on a bike, with a hundred or so similar cells also packed in there.

Title: Re: Recycle LapTop Batteries
Post by: ramset on October 12, 2014, 03:27:08 AM
A mere Flesh wound ....


Yes I did watch the Whole Vid [in speedy mode], it will be interesting to see what Tom comes up with.


thx
Chet
Title: Re: Recycle LapTop Batteries
Post by: MarkE on October 12, 2014, 04:20:08 AM
Panasonic now claims that they offer cells that are impervious to short circuit induced fires.

Mixing cells that are not matched can be done but really needs broad capability per cell charge management.  That can get expensive which is why what you see in the market are narrow capability management schemes.  They discard a string of cells when any one cell varies too much from the others.
Title: Re: Recycle LapTop Batteries
Post by: joel321 on October 12, 2014, 08:22:46 AM
I'm a tool fanatic, and most of the cell packs that go bad is due to the electronic balancer itself and not the battery cells themselves....well it goes both ways....either the circuit balancer goes bad (whole pack is labeled as bad even with all cells in good working order), or one cell goes bad ( whole pack is labeled as bad even with one cell in not good working order).

Those little sissy guys scared about CONTROLLED fires, lol, don't worry about them. A heat sink would be beneficial for the battery if it gets hot  since heat is the devil of all. lol

Go dig around rich peoples trash cans (legally) and you will see them throw away stuff that only was due to a fuse. Or females saying that it went out of style....A $2000 dollar refrigerator go bad because of a one dollar bi-metal fuse in the compressor that got welded shut. ETC...ETC..

To get back on topic, give the pack an aluminum heat sink, a 12v dc fan, and don't worry about explosions unless you have them on your lap lol.....the car engine runs on explosions pushing the pistons....these little sissy guys are scared of little explosions....no insult but I find it funny how they are scared of li-ion batteries exploding.

A simple fuse could take care of the shorting out. Just like AHEM, house circuit breakers....and even when they fail, you won't die...the wires (fuse) will always burn first.

At any rate, looking forward to your project.
Title: Re: Recycle LapTop Batteries
Post by: TinselKoala on October 12, 2014, 08:34:33 AM
A lot of people have died because lithium batteries have caught on fire and/or exploded. If I'm going to be riding around on an electric bike powered by lithium batteries, I want to be able to sue a legit manufacturer when it blows up in my crotch.

Joel, please google "airline crashes battery fire" and spend half an hour reading.
Title: Re: Recycle LapTop Batteries
Post by: joel321 on October 12, 2014, 08:44:11 AM
Quote
A lot of people have died because lithium batteries have caught on fire...

I'm sure more have died driving a car but does that prevent people to drive a car? NO! It just means to use common sense. I understand that there are situations to push ligal actions, but over all, I don't see a big deal in the lithium batteries.....

If you smell smoke coming out of your electric bike, and all of your fuses and protection got bypassed, you have 3 minutes to walk away from it and tell people to watch the puny fireworks...lol

Quote
please google "airline crashes battery fire" and spend half an hour reading.

Well yes, I understand that, but the solution would be enclose those batteries in a metal case or ad as many fuses or implement a fire extinguisher when detecting fire....yara yara yara....that is more related to negligence (saving money) than the actual danger of the batteries.

You know about the Model S Tesla, fires have occurred too due to the batteries being low and gotten punctured by road debris...but never exploded because of the safety measures....got shyt on fire, YES, but not exploded.  But it's all a mater of using onion layer safety!

Now the TESLA is getting four-wheel-drive...

http://thinkprogress.org/climate/2014/10/11/3578698/new-tesla-speed-awd-efficient-range-self-drive/
Title: Re: Recycle LapTop Batteries
Post by: TommeyLReed on October 12, 2014, 01:42:57 PM
Hi all,

First of all, someone on this forum is misleading the fact that no laptop battery ever explodes sitting in a box.

Lithium explode for two reason:
Charging them with a bad balance/charger or too much load being pull from them.
You have a better chance to fart near a fire and see smoke  then having a lithium battery explode in your hand.
 
Rechargeable batteries are no different, they also can explode if you over charge them.

Don't fart guys. you can burn your house down :o

This is how foolish some people sound ;)

Tom
Title: Re: Recycle LapTop Batteries
Post by: ramset on October 12, 2014, 03:35:59 PM
Don't fart in the house ..."you'll shoot your eye out"


Tom,
of course all safety concerns must be addressed ,And  as Tinsel stated,
 an air tight container would be inappropriate for these early experiments.
Big challenge there for long term ..........


I am amazed at the difference in power density between these batteries and lead acid batteries.
sheeez just typing "lead acid" makes my palms sweat......


I like the cheap source for good batteries.


Good topic, not for the faint of heart.


thx
Chet




 






Title: Re: Recycle LapTop Batteries
Post by: TommeyLReed on October 12, 2014, 06:44:32 PM
Hi All,

This is a video how lithium reacts to water and fire.
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BliWUHSOalU

How lithium ion are made.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2PjyJhe7Q1g

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_72pVVmgcY

Tom
Title: Re: Recycle LapTop Batteries
Post by: TommeyLReed on October 13, 2014, 01:07:12 AM
Hi All,

This is a lithium battery pump circuit design using 3v-4v and charging each can while in series.

This also can be use to charge ten 12v batteries in series using a single 12v charger.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qpOZ4HvFv-g

Tom
Title: Re: Recycle LapTop Batteries
Post by: MarkE on October 13, 2014, 01:37:58 AM
Tommey have you settled in on a topology for your batteries and the charge control electronics?
Title: Re: Recycle LapTop Batteries
Post by: joel321 on October 13, 2014, 07:33:06 AM
If you look on craigs list you might be able to snap a dewalt or Milwaukee (very popular industrial brands) lithium ion battery chargers for $15 bucks and hack them for your liking.

Or even get a battery and charger combo to harvest the balancers and monitoring sensors.

I know for a fact that their lithium ion chargers charge 3, 4, or 8 cells...so there is a regulator built in those chargers.

There are some RC chargers that you can snag on Cragslist for cheap too...link for reference....

https://www.google.com/search?q=rc+chargers&biw=1238&bih=915&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=_GQ7VP_gN5OM8gGtwIC4DQ&sqi=2&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAw
Title: Re: Recycle LapTop Batteries
Post by: MarkE on October 13, 2014, 08:41:33 AM
There are dozens of Lithium battery management ICs on the market of varying levels of sophistication.  Some manage a single cell and others manage typically 2 - 6 cells each.  Some of those can be chained to manage 30 cells in series or more.  However, virtually all of them assume that the cells are in similar condition.  Managing cells that are in disparate conditions presents a lot of challenges that all end up costing money to address.  Rather than throw tons of money and real estate at cells that can be in any condition, most OEMs concentrate on making sure the cells are in similar condition when they ship, trying to keep them in similar condition in the product, and when they vary too much, shutting the battery down.
Title: Re: Recycle LapTop Batteries
Post by: TommeyLReed on October 13, 2014, 02:04:59 PM
Hi all,

Mark, I'm using a Imax B6 balance/charger.

So far 98% of recycle lithium cell are very good and hold a charge,  i have 100 laptop batteries (600+cells) for under $340.00

My design is to use all cells in a single 4v parallel or no greater then 12-16v in series.
This will allow more efficient way to control each pack using my Matrix design.

If I have 150 cells in parallel and 4 packs in series to run a 1000 watt inverter for 60vdc, the amp per cell is only need a constant of 1amp.

1 amp draw or 2a max with built in cell fuse
4V peek to 3v cut off=
4v@150a =600w, 600w x 4(banks) =2.4kwh
3v@150a =450w, 450w x 4(banks)=1.8kwh

This is the best way I believe these battery should be used on my Trike project with a range of 60+ miles.

10 miles full power test run, using 12v@10ah lead acid batteries in series to make 48v@10A.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fzV05QNZ17w (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fzV05QNZ17w)

Tom.