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Mechanical free energy devices => mechanic => Topic started by: SkyWatcher123 on October 10, 2014, 05:37:04 AM

Title: Stepped Gradient Magnet Motor
Post by: SkyWatcher123 on October 10, 2014, 05:37:04 AM
Hi folks, had this idea to try this type of magnet motor with electromagnet assist to continue rotation cycle.
The electromagnet may only need to neutralize the rotor magnet field or repulse a bit, we will see.
The hope is, that the one rotor magnet will be smoothly attracted to the electromagnet core, while the opposite rotor magnet assists in this process.
It is still in construction, here is a pic and a cad drawing.

peace love light
Title: Re: Stepped Gradient Magnet Motor
Post by: SkyWatcher123 on October 11, 2014, 04:13:31 AM
Hi folks, i forgot to say, any comments or questions welcome.
Has anyone built something like this or do you think it will work well.
Also, take note of the opposite rotor magnet positions, it is offset so that both rotor magnets are not sitting directly over any of the stepped stator magnets at any given moment.
peace love light
Title: Re: Stepped Gradient Magnet Motor
Post by: gyulasun on October 12, 2014, 01:05:04 AM
Hi SkyWatcher123,

In most of the cases in such setups,  (you surely know this),  the problem is that the increasing torque force of the rotor (gained during its travel through the gradual stator magnet steps) is still not high enough to go through the last step where the strongest attraction force exists between the rotor and stator magnets (sticky point).

While it is okay that you want to help the rotor go through the sticky point by using an electromagnet, in most of the cases it is a question whether the setup can be looped back (by utilizing the motor torque to drive a generator for instance). While you have not mentioned whether your aim is a self-runner,  it seems that an efficient motor could be built from such setups.

What I do believe a possible remedy to reduce the unwanted force at the sticky point is to apply a counter force onto the shaft by a separate rotor-stator magnet pair which should be positioned to interact with each other when the rotor blocking force at the sticky point is at a maximum. If your sticky point is an attract force, then your magnet pair should give a repel force, of course. I refer to this drawing I showed to a member to indicate this compensation method here:
http://www.overunity.com/13540/magnet-question/msg362716/#msg362716 (http://www.overunity.com/13540/magnet-question/msg362716/#msg362716)  The magnet pair (two simple rod or block magnets, one of them is fixed on the shaft, the other is fixed as a single stator magnet) should have no any magnetic flux connection with the stepped gradient magnets or with the 2 rotor magnets. Say your sticky point is at the 3 o'clock position, then the compensating magnet pair should meet in repel also at the 3 o'clock position, their facing distance should be adjusted to control the amount of the repel force between them just to compensate the attract force at the sticky point. 
I took the force "compensation" method from Bertil Werjefelt, he had showed such in one of his patent applications in 1994, Magnetic battery. ( http://www.rexresearch.com/werjefelt/werjefelt.htm (http://www.rexresearch.com/werjefelt/werjefelt.htm) )

With your setup, there can be other issues (beside the sticky point), I will return to discuss them later  (position of the electromagnet and the unwanted induction in its coil by the rotor magnets).

Nice build, just carry on.

Gyula
Title: Re: Stepped Gradient Magnet Motor
Post by: SkyWatcher123 on October 12, 2014, 02:41:00 AM
Hi folks, Hi gyulasun, thanks for the well thought reply.
Yes, those are similar thoughts i was having when designing this, to try and counter balance the sticky spot from last stator magnet to electromagnet.
It is designed for attraction mode.
I initially made tests with 2 magnet steps in linear fashion on a board.
This to determine the gap needed between stator magnets, to prevent any unwanted static magnetic field valleys so that the rotor magnet pulled strong and continuously forward.
Then when drawing it on cad, i realized with 2 rotor magnets, the opposite magnet will help this counterbalancing of the sticky spot to some degree, though not fully as you are sharing solutions for and i am thankful for.
The intention is to have excess shaft work above what is input into the electromagnet.
peace love light
Title: Re: Stepped Gradient Magnet Motor
Post by: gyulasun on October 13, 2014, 08:07:49 PM
Hi SkyWatcher123,

I think you are doing fine with your 'designing hat' on.  :)    Yes, the 2nd rotor magnet does help the 1st rotor magnet go through the sticky point but unfortunately it would still not be enough in itself (in most cases).

Regarding some other issues I hinted at, here are my additions. On the positioning of the electromagnet I mainly mean the angle of the axis of the electromagnet coil (or core) with respect to the rotor plane: to utilize the most attract force from the electromagnet, its axis ought to be as tangential as possible to the rotating plane of the rotor. Worst case is I think when the coil axle is perpendicular to the plane of the rotation of the rotor (i.e. when the shaft of the rotor and the axle of the coil is in paralell with each other), from your CAD drawing this seems to be case?

By the way, it is not a must at all to pull (by the electromagnet) the same rotor magnet which is just in the sticky point, you may consider placing two separate rotor magnets, shifted elsewhere on the rotor arm with a much favorable angle facing towards the electromagnet whereby the interacting forces can be the strongest possible between them when you fire the coil, thus utilizing the most force possible from the input power.

I mentioned the unwanted induction in the electromagnet coil:  unfortunately it will happen to be just the highest when you are to switch the coil on because of the closest position of the rotor magnet to it in those moments. And of course the induced voltage polarity by the rotor magnet will be such as to work against the input pulse voltage amplitude... i.e the difference of the two voltages will drive current in the coil.

The simplest solution to get rid of the induced voltage would be to use two soft iron pieces of about equal size to the two rotor magnets i.e. replace the rotor magnets with them. I know that motor torque would be less because "half of the attract force" would be missing from the setup but there would be no induction in the coil from the rotation. OF course this rotor magnets replacement with soft iron pieces ought to be tested, their usage strongly depends on how much  benefit may come from input power reduction versus output torque loss.

Another solution to reduce the induced voltage in the electromagnet coil is to apply the idea from member Allcanadian, see his first post in this thread at energeticforum: http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/2790-no-bemf-motor.html   I think you are a member over there too because to see the uploaded pictures you have to log in.  Nevertheless, I attached his drawing below for those reading here who are not members there. So the rotor magnets would close most of their flux across the side wall of the stator cores facing the magnets so that the coil behind the side walls receive but a small flux change versus the case with the usual cylinder core for the electromagnet.

Good luck with the build. I wonder whether you happen to have a stepper motor laying around, from defunct printers for instance, they usually make a good generator (mostly 3 phase) when their shaft is rotated and I thought of driving such stepper motor with your motor to produce electric power that could be loaded and measured easily after rectifying its output.  Unless you have Proney brake test setup of course.

Gyula
Title: Re: Stepped Gradient Magnet Motor
Post by: lumen on October 13, 2014, 11:23:36 PM
What I found about gradient fields is that the entire gradient has little if no effect.
The same acceleration will be seen with only the end magnet, the small steps add nothing.
I have been looking into another method because the magnetic field is totally conservative and any energy gained will be lost on exit.
 
There may be a way around this problem in that part of the field that costs can in fact add to a gain.
I'm thinking it's the only possible way and will explain why but it's not easy to explain without pictures to show why it just may be possible.
You can think of it like this, suppose two magnets are repelling each other and while moving them together, part of the force to repel can be used to move them closer. Now on exit, there is an energy gain because it cost less to move them together.
This is always the same and that's why the field is conservative.
 
Title: Re: Stepped Gradient Magnet Motor
Post by: SkyWatcher123 on October 14, 2014, 04:27:12 AM
Hi folks, hi gyulasun, thanks for the detailed and kind reply, when i get it up and running i will be thinking about that information.
I am just about finished with the structure, bearings and shaft.
Now ready to wire up electronics and mount a timing wheel with reed switch, hall switch or commutator, haven't decided what switching method to try first.
I think i recall having a a couple stepper motors salvaged from zerox machine, for efficiency testing, when that time comes.
Thanks for the replies lumen and webby1, more food for thought.
peace love light
Title: Re: Stepped Gradient Magnet Motor
Post by: gyulasun on October 15, 2014, 12:42:53 AM
Hi Lumen,

I understand what you say and mostly agree with it, including the loss of energy gain on exit.  However, it is the construction of the setup I think which may define whether acceleration takes place near the end magnet only or much earlier at the smaller steps too.

Please watch this video, especially from minutes 5:27 to 7:04  (reduce audio volume to a minimum due to the embarassing background music):  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pxy8phi6I74 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pxy8phi6I74)  The whole video is interesting but I especially mean the time duration I have indicated above, where a good 75% arc out of  the full 360° circle is travelled by the steel ball and gets stuck in the sticky point.   

Now suppose the steel ball is fixed firmly to a holder as a stator and the rotor will be the two discs with their magnets embedded between them as shown, and the air gap between the ball and the discs would be say 1-2 mm.  Then the discs as a single rotor will also rotate the same 75% arc and will get stuck in the same way as the ball did at the sticky point (where the last magnet and the ball are the closest to each other). 

Now the question arises whether the compensation of the strong attractive sticky point as I referred to in my Reply #2 above could be done with an equal amount of repel force exercised onto the shaft of the rotor discs? 

What do you and all others think?

Gyula

What I found about gradient fields is that the entire gradient has little if no effect.
The same acceleration will be seen with only the end magnet, the small steps add nothing.
I have been looking into another method because the magnetic field is totally conservative and any energy gained will be lost on exit.
 
There may be a way around this problem in that part of the field that costs can in fact add to a gain.
I'm thinking it's the only possible way and will explain why but it's not easy to explain without pictures to show why it just may be possible.
You can think of it like this, suppose two magnets are repelling each other and while moving them together, part of the force to repel can be used to move them closer. Now on exit, there is an energy gain because it cost less to move them together.
This is always the same and that's why the field is conservative.
Title: Re: Stepped Gradient Magnet Motor
Post by: gyulasun on October 15, 2014, 12:51:51 AM
Hi webby,

Thanks for the interesting notes.  I have not built Allcanadian setup, I simply wanted to draw attention to it as a possible means to reduce counter induction in the electromagnet from the rotating magnets.  I thought that using a core with a thick enough sidewall facing the magnets to "shield" the coil behind it could really reduce unwanted induction.

Gyula

This is not quit the action you get from this pic in the real world,, BTDT and it does make a nifty dual voltage generator.

Part of the issue is that the rate of propagation of the EM field is way faster than what the magnets can move away,, so it is very hard to fire the coil off without actually pulling back on the magnet, or when waiting for a large enough space to get rid of most of the tails of the fields the force of interaction is very weak.  Maybe using a very good short pulse could do it but I had very little luck using a commutator and brush with making much torque.  Also the "kick" over the magnet is fairly large,, so a short pulse on at just the right time does make it work better than a longer between magnets firing,, from my experience anyway,, your mileage may vary.

A 4 winding toroid is also interesting when you have each winding on only 1\4 of the toroid core,, fire them off like poles facing each other.
Title: Re: Stepped Gradient Magnet Motor
Post by: SkyWatcher123 on October 15, 2014, 01:36:36 AM
Hi folks, hi gyulasun, i'll have to give some thought to your counterbalance idea.
For now I'm just going to use trial and error on what I'm building now, then if all that yields nothing, I'll ponder your idea.
I started placing the 1" diameter neo magnets into a few holes and testing by hand, how a rotor magnet might behave.
I guess my initial linear board tests were good for that setup, though things change with different strength fields, meaning bigger neo stacks and also the gap between magnets might be a little different.
So, what i have determined, is it will now be a repulsion mode motor.
Also, i am going to test with small to large neo stack, with descending stepped stator magnets, as this seems to work well when testing by hand.
This also has the benefit of the electromagnet not needing to repulse as much into the first stator magnet stack just ahead of it.
Which will be only two of the 1/8" thick 1" diam. neos, then another identical stack stepped down a bit, then a stack of 3 stepped down and another 3 stepped down, hope that makes it clear.
Then the last magnet stack will be the strongest.
Going to have to super glue one stack at a time and let dry, as the fields mess with each other and they will not stay in place.
Back to constructing, thoughts welcome.
peace love light
Title: Re: Stepped Gradient Magnet Motor
Post by: lumen on October 15, 2014, 07:30:59 AM
Hi Lumen,

I understand what you say and mostly agree with it, including the loss of energy gain on exit.  However, it is the construction of the setup I think which may define whether acceleration takes place near the end magnet only or much earlier at the smaller steps too.

Please watch this video, especially from minutes 5:27 to 7:04  (reduce audio volume to a minimum due to the embarassing background music):  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pxy8phi6I74 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pxy8phi6I74)  The whole video is interesting but I especially mean the time duration I have indicated above, where a good 75% arc out of  the full 360° circle is travelled by the steel ball and gets stuck in the sticky point.   

Now suppose the steel ball is fixed firmly to a holder as a stator and the rotor will be the two discs with their magnets embedded between them as shown, and the air gap between the ball and the discs would be say 1-2 mm.  Then the discs as a single rotor will also rotate the same 75% arc and will get stuck in the same way as the ball did at the sticky point (where the last magnet and the ball are the closest to each other). 

Now the question arises whether the compensation of the strong attractive sticky point as I referred to in my Reply #2 above could be done with an equal amount of repel force exercised onto the shaft of the rotor discs? 

What do you and all others think?

Gyula

 Hi Gyula,  Yes there will be acceleration along the gradient but what I meant to say is that the speed achieved through the gradient when it reaches the end magnet is only the same as it would have been if only the end magnet existed.
The gradient seems to add no additional gain in speed. In the ramps that I built it always seems to be the case.

 
Title: Re: Stepped Gradient Magnet Motor
Post by: gyulasun on October 16, 2014, 12:42:42 AM
Hi Lumen,

Thanks for the further explanation, I understand now how you meant.  I find it strange a bit though but I respect experiments. 

My impression was (after watching the video I referred to)  that the ball should have higher speed when arriving into a position with acceleration which  is (for example) only 3 cm away from the sticky point  versus the case when the ball is started moving only from a stationary position which is 3 cm distance towards the sticky point. 

Gyula
Title: Re: Stepped Gradient Magnet Motor
Post by: SkyWatcher123 on October 16, 2014, 05:03:03 AM
Hi folks, mounted 4 stepped neo stacks with rotor mounted and the results with the arrangement as stated is not so good.
The first 2 magnet stacks have a couple of stall spots between magnets, then after that, it repels along fine.
I thought it seemed to work well with hand tests, though with the rotor mounted it reveals the true functioning.
So, i will remove the magnets and place the strongest neo stack first and then step down with progressively weaker magnet stacks, still using repulsion mode.
Because the way it is now, it is causing the stall spots.
peace love light
Title: Re: Stepped Gradient Magnet Motor
Post by: lumen on October 16, 2014, 08:43:57 PM
Hi Skywatcher and Gyula
First I want to say that the Gradient concept is simply the concept behind all magnet motors and that they never seem to operate as desired.
What I have discovered is a new concept on how one could build a magnet only motor that has never been posted (as far as I know)
Once you have the principal of this new concept you will understand that magnet motors may in fact be real in spite of the fact that magnetic fields are 100% conservative in nature.
 
I don't really want to bring up this new concept in Skywatchers project thread and possibly derail his project but knowing this concept opens up a new area of magnetic interaction.
 
Because Skywatcher wants to experiment and Gyula has the brains, this might be a benefit if we all knew the concept, and knowing the concept is the key to this new area of testing.
 
 
 
Title: Re: Stepped Gradient Magnet Motor
Post by: SkyWatcher123 on October 16, 2014, 08:55:20 PM
Hi lumen, feel free to share whatever you like, if that is your wish.
I'm enjoying building and testing things, without fun, what's the point to anything really, so share away.
Also, brains are good, though without imagination and vision, brains can be like a boat without a rudder or a horse with blinders on.
That's my fortune cookie wisdom for today, hehe.
peace love light
 
Title: Re: Stepped Gradient Magnet Motor
Post by: gyulasun on October 17, 2014, 12:12:54 AM
Hi Lumen,

I agree, the gradient concept has been done several times and failed to produce excess output energy in all known cases.  Perhaps the most known such setup and claim came from Harry Paul Sprain ( http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:Paul_Harry_Sprain_magnet_motor (http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:Paul_Harry_Sprain_magnet_motor) ).

A more recent attempt was shown by member Honk in this forum, he designed and built an excellent setup:
http://www.overunity.com/3456/f-b-d-i-s-s-m-flux-boosted-dual-induction-split-spiral-motor/msg54032/#msg54032 (http://www.overunity.com/3456/f-b-d-i-s-s-m-flux-boosted-dual-induction-split-spiral-motor/msg54032/#msg54032)

Unfortunately, Honk did not achieve excess output either. 

If you feel like to start a new thread on your new concept, I will certainly be interested to read it and contribute if I can. 

Thanks,  Gyula

Title: Re: Stepped Gradient Magnet Motor
Post by: lumen on October 17, 2014, 03:39:26 AM
Yes, I suppose it would be best to start a new thread.
I remember a story about someone that put a small magnetic motor into a toy airplane and it just sat there running by itself.
At the time I thought if this was real then however it was done it must be quite simple to fit inside a toy airplane.
 
Title: Re: Stepped Gradient Magnet Motor
Post by: gyulasun on October 18, 2014, 11:37:15 PM
Hi Tyson,

I hope my reply#16 above did not discourage you from tinkering further on this project, for I included two negative examples on the stepped gradient magnet like setups....  ;)
In fact, these examples are why I drew your attention to the Werjefelt "compensation" method, to get over the sticky point without too much input power input.

Gyula

Hi folks, mounted 4 stepped neo stacks with rotor mounted and the results with the arrangement as stated is not so good.
The first 2 magnet stacks have a couple of stall spots between magnets, then after that, it repels along fine.
I thought it seemed to work well with hand tests, though with the rotor mounted it reveals the true functioning.
So, i will remove the magnets and place the strongest neo stack first and then step down with progressively weaker magnet stacks, still using repulsion mode.
Because the way it is now, it is causing the stall spots.
peace love light
Title: Re: Stepped Gradient Magnet Motor
Post by: SkyWatcher123 on October 19, 2014, 03:16:22 AM
Hi gyulasun, thanks for your concern, no i haven't completely given it up, it's just this particular geometry and parts used do not seem to be the best choices.
I'm going to say you are correct, in that a radial geometry would be best, but more complicated to build, which is why i tried this design.
I need to give this some more thought.
In the meantime, someone sparked my interest in a principal that diverts a permanent magnets flux and i forsee using either a rotating permanent magnet or an electromagnet, to create an output in a separate core piece.
This would negate any direct relationship between the output and input, meaning it should not reflect back to input.
What the efficiency might be is another question until experiments are made.
Similar to Kawai motor, only this would be a transformer.
I already did some hand tests and with just bringing magnet close and pulling away, i can get 6 milliamps.
What is interesting is, is that the diverting flux can be much less than the main operating flux that permeates both core pieces.
Which reminds me of how a transistor works.
If it starts to look a little more promising, I'll start a thread on it.
peace love light

Edit: here is a drawing of the idea.

Title: Re: Stepped Gradient Magnet Motor
Post by: gyulasun on October 19, 2014, 01:03:48 PM
Hi Tyson,

Please have a look at this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0D_qdbLmxqk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0D_qdbLmxqk)

Do not let other 'principals' divert your attention from the present project...  :)   

Making a circular ramp where a rotor is able to cover around 270-290 degree (out of the full 360 degree) by permanent magnet interactions only is practical, right?  One more example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WjvAbD1aA0w

Then comes the dreadful sticky point of course but the possibilities are there.

Gyula
Title: Re: Stepped Gradient Magnet Motor
Post by: DreamThinkBuild on October 25, 2014, 04:16:57 AM
Hi SkyWatcher123,

The stepped ramp always has the problem of the last magnet being the strongest to overcome, as Lumen has stated.

Gyulasun shows a very interesting video (the last one) showing a gradient ramp using a nail attached to a bearing. Nails can be easily polarized with another magnet so an interesting test would be to see a diametric magnet can be used for switching the polarization of the nail as it approaches the end. Tweaking of the inner magnet may be needed to see if it can switch.

Attached is a picture to clarify the idea.

I did a rough print to test resistance of plastic ring on magnet and there is a lot of friction but the polarity does change through each nail. I did get to test a metal bearing (using cylinders) and it moved much smoother while changing the field on the surface. It might be better to find a diametric magnet that has the same diameter as the bearing bore and test that.
Title: Re: Stepped Gradient Magnet Motor
Post by: gyulasun on October 25, 2014, 11:06:56 PM
Hi DreamThinkBuild,

I think you have a good idea for changing the magnetic poles for the nails, thanks for showing it. My only notice is that there may be issues at the last magnet stacks of the ramp where (i.e. in the sticky point) the attract force is the strongest towards the nail so that the magnetizing force from the diametrical magnet may not be enough to weaken enough or even change the polarization at the tip of the nail so tweaking is still needed in the assembled setup.
Here I mainly mean that the strong (say) S pole induced at the tip end of the nail by the (say) N pole of the last ramp magnet stack would need a rather strong N pole source i.e. an equally strong diametric magnet to override the flux in the nail from the stacked magnets. I think you understand this? Otherwise there may remain a sticky point and a continuous rotation of the rotor may just fail. I believe that the Werjefelt compensation method I referred to in the previous page would also help defeat or greatly reduce the sticky point, maybe together with the use of the diametically magnetized magnet switch.

To SkyWatcher:  I hope you did not get lost in the attraction of the magnetic forces  ;) :)   and have some progress in the stepped gradient motor setup.  If you have found that the geometry you started out with originally proves to be unfavorable then do not hesitate to change it. Of course I know the change needs even more devotion than what you have started out with. 
I understand your newer setup, the flux diverting transformer, shown in your latest post above.  I think that the output power can only be small because the output core does not have a closed magnetic path.  However, the moment you would try to make a closed path there, then Lenz would invariably come into play I think.  You could increase output of course if you were to chain a few stages (like you show in the drawing) in line with each other (in this case the input toroidal coils would be seriesly connected of course).

Greetings
Gyula
Title: Re: Stepped Gradient Magnet Motor
Post by: mscoffman on October 25, 2014, 11:59:09 PM
If you can reliably switch the polarity of the nail you really need only one magnet in the whole field. If you can get it to switch fast
enough it would work in the same as a EMF driven motor. I like the concept of using HHO to create a fast powerful energy pulse
to flip the rotor magnet around at magnetic speeds. The HHO would be generated during the whole rest of the rev.


:S:MarkSCoffman 
Title: Re: Stepped Gradient Magnet Motor
Post by: Low-Q on October 26, 2014, 02:35:50 AM
Hi SkyWatcher123,

In most of the cases in such setups,  (you surely know this),  the problem is that the increasing torque force of the rotor (gained during its travel through the gradual stator magnet steps) is still not high enough to go through the last step where the strongest attraction force exists between the rotor and stator magnets (sticky point).

While it is okay that you want to help the rotor go through the sticky point by using an electromagnet, in most of the cases it is a question whether the setup can be looped back (by utilizing the motor torque to drive a generator for instance). While you have not mentioned whether your aim is a self-runner,  it seems that an efficient motor could be built from such setups.

What I do believe a possible remedy to reduce the unwanted force at the sticky point is to apply a counter force onto the shaft by a separate rotor-stator magnet pair which should be positioned to interact with each other when the rotor blocking force at the sticky point is at a maximum. If your sticky point is an attract force, then your magnet pair should give a repel force, of course. I refer to this drawing I showed to a member to indicate this compensation method here:
http://www.overunity.com/13540/magnet-question/msg362716/#msg362716 (http://www.overunity.com/13540/magnet-question/msg362716/#msg362716)  The magnet pair (two simple rod or block magnets, one of them is fixed on the shaft, the other is fixed as a single stator magnet) should have no any magnetic flux connection with the stepped gradient magnets or with the 2 rotor magnets. Say your sticky point is at the 3 o'clock position, then the compensating magnet pair should meet in repel also at the 3 o'clock position, their facing distance should be adjusted to control the amount of the repel force between them just to compensate the attract force at the sticky point. 
I took the force "compensation" method from Bertil Werjefelt, he had showed such in one of his patent applications in 1994, Magnetic battery. ( http://www.rexresearch.com/werjefelt/werjefelt.htm (http://www.rexresearch.com/werjefelt/werjefelt.htm) )

With your setup, there can be other issues (beside the sticky point), I will return to discuss them later  (position of the electromagnet and the unwanted induction in its coil by the rotor magnets).

Nice build, just carry on.

Gyula
If you put a second magnet that will counterforce the sticky spot, the rotor will also get less torque build up due to the weakened sticky spot. The sticky spot (The most attractive point) is the very reason why the rotor want to approach it. This spot is equally attracting the rotor from both sides, so there is no way that you can make a rotor selfrun - not even with the second repelling magnet included.
If you use a coil to help the rotor to continue, that energy input is what you can get out from the rotor. In short: You only need this coil, and no stator magnets. Then you're back to the traditional electric motor principle.
It's only one way to succsessfully build a working magnet motor - that would be the one that is impossible to build ;-)
Title: Re: Stepped Gradient Magnet Motor
Post by: gyulasun on October 26, 2014, 04:55:38 PM
Hi Vidar,

I agree with you on this, quote: "If you put a second magnet that will counterforce the sticky spot, the rotor will also get less torque build up due to the weakened sticky spot. The sticky spot (The most attractive point) is the very reason why the rotor want to approach it. This spot is equally attracting the rotor from both sides" unquote.

The rotor in such stepped gradient magnet setups will arrive at the strongest sticky spot with a certain rotational speed (with a certain amount of torque) gained en route to that spot, you may agree with this, it is not the last magnet (where the sticky spot is) which gives the full torque for the rotor.  Sure the rotor will loose the last and strongest attraction when I compensate that last attract force with an equal repel force but there should remain some torque from the earlier magnets' attraction,  no?

I also agree that using a coil to help the rotor to move through the last (i.e. the strongest) magnet, I can only receive a bit less useful output from my coil input (if I compare the two)  but in case the rotor already arrives into the sticky spot with a certain torque (kinetic energy) gained by normal attractions up to the last and strongest magnet (from the magnets preceeding the last magnet), then do not we have a chance to come out with a certain gain, whatever small the gain is?

Gyula
Title: Re: Stepped Gradient Magnet Motor
Post by: Low-Q on October 26, 2014, 10:07:04 PM
Hi Vidar,

I agree with you on this, quote: "If you put a second magnet that will counterforce the sticky spot, the rotor will also get less torque build up due to the weakened sticky spot. The sticky spot (The most attractive point) is the very reason why the rotor want to approach it. This spot is equally attracting the rotor from both sides" unquote.

The rotor in such stepped gradient magnet setups will arrive at the strongest sticky spot with a certain rotational speed (with a certain amount of torque) gained en route to that spot, you may agree with this, it is not the last magnet (where the sticky spot is) which gives the full torque for the rotor.  Sure the rotor will loose the last and strongest attraction when I compensate that last attract force with an equal repel force but there should remain some torque from the earlier magnets' attraction,  no?

I also agree that using a coil to help the rotor to move through the last (i.e. the strongest) magnet, I can only receive a bit less useful output from my coil input (if I compare the two)  but in case the rotor already arrives into the sticky spot with a certain torque (kinetic energy) gained by normal attractions up to the last and strongest magnet (from the magnets preceeding the last magnet), then do not we have a chance to come out with a certain gain, whatever small the gain is?

Gyula


Well, you must see all the magnets in the steps as a whole. There is a reason why the rotor want to approach the magnet closest to its circumference, or radius if you want. The first magnets farthest away will as well attract the rotor, but the next and closer magnet will then be stronger and pull the rotor even further, and so on. When the rotor reach the last magnet, it will have built up some momentum. That momentum is a result of the magnets, and nothing more. There are no change in the magnets arrangements, or size when the rotor leaves them, hence no change in the attractive forces that act on the rotor. If we sample small steps (1 degree steps or less) in one revolution of torque and add them up, you will have zero torque as the final result.
This zero-result will multiplied to the angular velocity end up in zero energy. Hence no angular acceleration.


The steps are some how a little confusing to our mind, because the only thing this arrangement do is to smoothen out the forces, but the total magnetic force will be the same as if you combined all these magnets into one stronger magnet.


Assisting with coils into a system that does not produce energy in the first place, will ofcourse result in the same total energy output as you put into the coil.


Vidar
Title: Re: Stepped Gradient Magnet Motor
Post by: gyulasun on October 27, 2014, 02:18:53 PM
Hi Vidar,

All I can say is that it is indeed difficult to 'digest' in this setup when the rotor arrives at a position with a certain torque and if at that point the counter force does not exist any more due to compensation, then why the rotor should not continue its moving further on.
I think that I should try to build such setups for myself to experience that it is indeed not possible...  8)    Have you built such stepped gradient motor setup I wonder?

I would like to show you a brief video on a Tri-gate setup, please tell your opinion.  (I do not think it is a fake.)  Did the magnets do work?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MCW6T7oKq2c (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MCW6T7oKq2c) 

Thanks,  Gyula
Title: Re: Stepped Gradient Magnet Motor
Post by: Low-Q on October 27, 2014, 09:07:57 PM
Hi Vidar,

All I can say is that it is indeed difficult to 'digest' in this setup when the rotor arrives at a position with a certain torque and if at that point the counter force does not exist any more due to compensation, then why the rotor should not continue its moving further on.
I think that I should try to build such setups for myself to experience that it is indeed not possible...  8)    Have you built such stepped gradient motor setup I wonder?

I would like to show you a brief video on a Tri-gate setup, please tell your opinion.  (I do not think it is a fake.)  Did the magnets do work?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MCW6T7oKq2c (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MCW6T7oKq2c) 

Thanks,  Gyula
The video you linked to is not a fake, but it does not produce more energy than what is put in. I can write down a couple of pages why this isn't over unity, but I have no time doing so.
The effect you see here is not abnormal. It is a natural cause of interaction between mass, gravity and magnets.
I would bet a billion dollars that this wouldn't rotate if there was not a pendulum, but a rotor with two sticks arranged 180 degrees apart.
The pendulum swings higher on the right side without the tri-gate, but he doesn't show you that specificly. Watch it again and notice the swing when the pendulum goes back the first time - with and without the tri-gate.


I think some information is missing from my previous post.
When I said that the rotor will gain momentum, this is only true if you by hand put the rotor in a position where magnetic attraction is present. If you by hand put the rotor part in a position where it is attracted to the magnet it will for sure be pulled towards the most attractive magnet - the one which is closest. However, there is a dead spot somwhere on the rotors circumference where the rotor part isn't going anywhere. If you accidently push it the wrong way, the rotor part will approach the magnet in wrong direction. Pushing it slightly in the right direction, the rotor part will move towards the magnet in the right direction. This is easier to observe if you take away all the rotor parts except one.


When you are using several rotor parts, like the one in the picture, it is (As I indicated) harder to determine where this dead spot is. So try with only one rotor part at the time.
You can also add so many rotor parts you want so it finally looks like one solid disc. Imagine how a solid disc of iron will behave in this experiment. It will not start to move at all. It is the same deal as with only one rotor part, but without the cogging.
So using only one rotor part, you can easily examine the behaviour, and take samples of torque for each degree rotation. Sum it up and you will get just as much clockwise torque as counterclockwise torque.


This, and I speak to everyone, is a great lesson to learn how magnetism work as an energy source - or lack of.


Those who claim they have built a working magnet motor, which works without external energy source, are not telling the truth. Sorry. I don't call them liars, but dreamers who cannot imagine why such a motor can't work, and take a chance that some one will believe them in order to spice their dreams even more. I have been there - I know how you all feel :-)


Once I designed a magnet motor that had the same torque on both rotors except that one rotor spun 20% faster, hence 20% more energy than the other. The problem was just that I overloocked a very importand and devestating detail. It is not possible to build without loosing those extra 20% of energy. This was the closes to "EUREKA!!" I have ever been, but landed hard and brutal when I faced the facts.


The youtube video of this demonstration is shown here as an illustration (It does not work in real life):


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LDRorMyxdO0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LDRorMyxdO0)

Title: Re: Stepped Gradient Magnet Motor
Post by: gyulasun on October 27, 2014, 11:29:13 PM

...

In the video you posted there is more velocity with the magnets in place but the "stop" is well within the range of deceleration that the last gate will provide.

Hi webby1,

Thanks for your reply I understand most part of it. The last part I quote above is what I do not get. I agree there is more velocity with the magnets,  but what you mean on the "stop":  is it the highest position for the pendulum on both atthe right or left hand side?  If yes then it is rather difficult to tell from the camera angle used I believe.

Thanks, Gyula
Title: Re: Stepped Gradient Magnet Motor
Post by: gyulasun on October 27, 2014, 11:50:10 PM
The video you linked to is not a fake, but it does not produce more energy than what is put in. I can write down a couple of pages why this isn't over unity, but I have no time doing so.
The effect you see here is not abnormal. It is a natural cause of interaction between mass, gravity and magnets.
I would bet a billion dollars that this wouldn't rotate if there was not a pendulum, but a rotor with two sticks arranged 180 degrees apart.
The pendulum swings higher on the right side without the tri-gate, but he doesn't show you that specificly. Watch it again and notice the swing when the pendulum goes back the first time - with and without the tri-gate.

....


Hi Vidar,

Regarding the video I linked to, I did two screen captures as best as I could to see the highest swinging point for the pendulum on the right side, with the magnets and then without the magnets. Unfortunately, the camera angles are not exactly the same for the two cases but the camera height fortunately is more or less the same so the angle is not a drawback in this case to see how high the pendulum is able swing back on the right side: my estimation is that in both cases the height is 'almost' the same. 
I attached the two screen captures I did, probably an even better capture on the hights could be done with a video editor but I do not have such,  I made several captures to arrive at the two pictures below and I belive they show the highest points in both cases.

So I disagree with your statement I put in bold characters in your post quoted above.  If you disagree with the captures please make a better one which proves your sentence, maybe I missed the exact 00:00 video time where you see that. I saw the very nearly identical heights (which is the height of 6 CD plastic holders) at 0:38 and at 1:01.

Thanks for all your other explanations on the stepped gradient motor.

Gyula
Title: Re: Stepped Gradient Magnet Motor
Post by: gyulasun on October 28, 2014, 12:15:22 AM
The plastic box he has placed at the end of the stroke that the magnets on the arm collide with,, they hit it when the magnets are there and do not reach the box without,, the plastic box is what I am referring to as a "stop".

Just like with any magnet\pendulum setup there will be an increase in velocity as the magnet pulls in the magnet on the arm,, this with gravity will speed up the motion,, then when the magnet on the arm has passed over the magnet being used the magnet part will pull back on the magnet on the arm,, this happens like a rubber band and takes some distance to fully remove the added KE,, so if you place the box before that distance is reached it will hit the box, but can be further than the distance reached without the magnets.

Hi webby,

Okay, thanks.  I thought that the higher speed when the magnets are present comes from the "slingshot" effect NASA used to describe the gravity assist effect for rockets, see such description here: http://saturn.jpl.nasa.gov/mission/missiongravityassistprimer/ (http://saturn.jpl.nasa.gov/mission/missiongravityassistprimer/) 
The trigates magnets I think give the 'slingshot' (i.e. magnet field assistance) to the pendulum when the movement is towards the left side to hit the box. This is a gain from the magnets because the distance the pendulum covers towards the left side is longer than without the magnets. This is what somehow could be developed further on.

Thanks,  Gyula
Title: Re: Stepped Gradient Magnet Motor
Post by: Low-Q on October 31, 2014, 04:30:43 PM
Hi Vidar,

Regarding the video I linked to, I did two screen captures as best as I could to see the highest swinging point for the pendulum on the right side, with the magnets and then without the magnets. Unfortunately, the camera angles are not exactly the same for the two cases but the camera height fortunately is more or less the same so the angle is not a drawback in this case to see how high the pendulum is able swing back on the right side: my estimation is that in both cases the height is 'almost' the same. 
I attached the two screen captures I did, probably an even better capture on the hights could be done with a video editor but I do not have such,  I made several captures to arrive at the two pictures below and I belive they show the highest points in both cases.

So I disagree with your statement I put in bold characters in your post quoted above.  If you disagree with the captures please make a better one which proves your sentence, maybe I missed the exact 00:00 video time where you see that. I saw the very nearly identical heights (which is the height of 6 CD plastic holders) at 0:38 and at 1:01.

Thanks for all your other explanations on the stepped gradient motor.

Gyula
You're welcome :-) Hope you got some perspectives to consider regarding the gradient stepped motor.


Regarding the pendulim: Have in mind that the designer would have put work into the pendulum in order to lift it into start position. How much work done here is not documented. If he used a scale we would have some clues what's going on. In devices in this small size it is almost impossible to feel the difference in force and energy. Replace the CD-covers with a scale and see what difference there is in the force. If the force is different, the designer spent more or less energy to lift the pendulum in the two examples.


Vidar